Virtues for our times

Whyayeman · Jan 22, 2024

Prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance are the traditional cardinal virtues. Our first record of them is in Plato's Republic written in the fifth century before the Modern Era. I would be inclined to add generosity, kindness and and compassion.

Any suggestions for additions to Plato's list suitable for us all today? Or are they just out of date?

Tinker Grey · Jan 22, 2024

Mercy

Brihaha · Jan 22, 2024

Honesty is needed everywhere.
Wisdom would be nice to see too.

public hermit · Jan 22, 2024

Whyayeman said:
Prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance are the traditional cardinal virtues. Our first record of them is in Plato's Republic written in the fifth century before the Modern Era. I would be inclined to add generosity, kindness and and compassion.

Any suggestions for additions to Plato's list suitable for us all today? Or are they just out of date?

How about humility in the sense of not being self-oriented/self-centered? I would agree to adding virtues like generosity, kindness, and compassion, but those depend on an orientation that values others at least as much as one's self. Significantly, humility was not explicitly valued as a virtue by ancient Greeks. As Nietzsche was happy to point out, it was a Christian virtue. I'm not sure that is accurate. I think the Stoics understood its value even if it wasn't explicit. How does one live according to nature in a sprawling cosmos and deny passions without some form of it?

ETA: I think ancient skeptics (Academic and Pyrrhonian) can teach us something about epistemic humility. Lord knows, people these days can have a hard time accepting they could be wrong. I would like to add epistemic/doxastic humility, too.

durangodawood · Jan 22, 2024

Whyayeman said:
.... fortitude .....

Yes yes.

We're in a time when people are looking for quick fix solutions to life's personal and political problems, and are falling for lies and false promises.

jayem · Jan 22, 2024

There's probably overlap with the qualities already mentioned. But I'd include decency, and impartiality.

zippy2006 · Jan 22, 2024

Some of the Christian virtues have been noted already. I would say they are humility, love, mercy, and hope. But I also think Nietzsche was largely right that we have veered too far from the ancients. Humility has become self-deprecation, love sentimentality, mercy lenience, hope presumption, etc. I think that as far as society is concerned justice and the intellectual virtues are most needed; on an individual level temperance and fortitude are most needed. Prudence goes without saying. Magnanimity is another ancient virtue that is needed.

The sort of humility and patience that cedes certain decisions to those with the requisite expertise is also perhaps lacking - a kind of societal trust or goodwill.

Tropical Wilds · Jan 23, 2024

Discernment.

Whyayeman · Jan 25, 2024

Thank you for these. Here is the list we have put together:

From my post, Plato's list;

Prudence

Justice

Fortitude

Temperance

And your suggestions;

Mercy

Honesty

Humility

Decency

Impartiality

Magnanimity

Patience

Trust

Goodwill

Discernment

That is a long list! Perhaps we could choose - say three from your list to add to the original four. (Let's not argue with Plato!)

My choice:

Mercy

Honesty

Patience

Ana the Ist · Jan 29, 2024

Whyayeman said:
Prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance are the traditional cardinal virtues. Our first record of them is in Plato's Republic written in the fifth century before the Modern Era. I would be inclined to add generosity, kindness and and compassion.

Any suggestions for additions to Plato's list suitable for us all today? Or are they just out of date?

What is the primary difference between generosity and compassion from the larger rubric of kindness?

It seems like you're just suggesting kindness and two forms it comes in.

I'd also suggest wisdom.

Ana the Ist · Jan 29, 2024

public hermit said:
How about humility in the sense of not being self-oriented/self-centered? I would agree to adding virtues like generosity, kindness, and compassion, but those depend on an orientation that values others at least as much as one's self. Significantly, humility was not explicitly valued as a virtue by ancient Greeks. As Nietzsche was happy to point out, it was a Christian virtue. I'm not sure that is accurate. I think the Stoics understood its value even if it wasn't explicit. How does one live according to nature in a sprawling cosmos and deny passions without some form of it?

ETA: I think ancient skeptics (Academic and Pyrrhonian) can teach us something about epistemic humility. Lord knows, people these days can have a hard time accepting they could be wrong. I would like to add epistemic/doxastic humility, too.

Epistemic humility?

public hermit · Jan 29, 2024

Ana the Ist said:
Epistemic humility?

Yes, humility regarding what you think you know, i.e., accepting the fact you could be wrong. "Fallibilism" might be a more familiar way of putting it. "Doxastic humility" would refer to belief claims, particularly in relation to religious dogma in this context.

Fallibilism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Ana the Ist · Jan 29, 2024

public hermit said:
Yes, humility regarding what you think you know, i.e., accepting the fact you could be wrong. "Fallibilism" might be a more familiar way of putting it. "Doxastic humility" would refer to belief claims, particularly in relation to religious dogma in this context.

Fallibilism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Ty. I genuinely wasn't sure what you meant...and you gave a clear explanation.

Ana the Ist · Jan 29, 2024

Odd...didn't see bravery on the list despite the dramatic shortage of it these days.

Bravery.

I always considered bravery and intelligence two qualities that most people would agree to want in themselves but rarely appreciate in others. In fact, I think that are more often resented.

Whyayeman · Jan 30, 2024

Ana the Ist said:
Odd...didn't see bravery on the list despite the dramatic shortage of it these days.

Bravery.

I always considered bravery and intelligence two qualities that most people would agree to want in themselves but rarely appreciate in others. In fact, I think that are more often resented.

I think it is covered by Plato's Fortitude as in the OP. (I don't think there is a shortage of this quality, by the way.)

partinobodycular · Jan 30, 2024

Okay, just to stir the pot, I'm gonna throw an odd one into the mix.

Apathy

People tend to think of apathy as a bad thing, but in reality it's a double edged sword, because it extends not only to one's concern about others, but also to one's concern about stuff, and about themselves. So whereas most people are concerned about 'things', a truly apathetic person doesn't care so much about 'things'. After all, they're just things. Nor do they care so much about their lot in life, or whether it's 'fair' or not. Thus they tend not to be jealous about what others have, or prideful about what they themselves have.

So here's my suggestion, begin with apathy, and then add the other virtues to it.

public hermit · Jan 30, 2024

partinobodycular said:
Okay, just to stir the pot, I'm gonna throw an odd one into the mix.

Apathy

People tend to think of apathy as a bad thing, but in reality it's a double edged sword, because it extends not only to one's concern about others, but also to one's concern about stuff, and about themselves. So whereas most people are concerned about 'things', a truly apathetic person doesn't care so much about 'things'. After all, they're just things. Nor do they care so much about their lot in life, or whether it's 'fair' or not. Thus they tend not to be jealous about what others have, or prideful about what they themselves have.

So here's my suggestion, begin with apathy, and then add the other virtues to it.

That sounds similar to ataraxia, basically meaning "not-disturbed." It was a virtue valued by many ancient schools (skeptics, epicureans, stoics). "Detachment" might be another word for it. I agree that apathy/detachment is a much needed virtue today.

Ataraxia - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

partinobodycular · Jan 30, 2024

public hermit said:
That sounds similar to ataraxia, basically meaning "not-disturbed."

I knew that there was probably a better word for it, I was just too dumb to know what it was. For stupid people like me sometimes 'Crowdsourcing' is a wonderful thing... and today is a good day... because I learned something. I'm not apathetic... I have ataraxia... how nobly Greek of me.

Virtues for our times

Well-Known Member

Wanderer

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

re Member

Naturalist

Dragonsworn

Little Lebowski Urban Achiever

Well-Known Member

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

social troglodyte

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

social troglodyte

Well-Known Member

Similar threads