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Biden Administration Imposes Largest Fine Ever on Christian College

Jermayn

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37.7 million dollar fine for expecting Ph.D students to be able to read a brochure. My guess is it's more about hating Christians than anything else.

 

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37.7 million dollar fine for expecting Ph.D students to be able to read a brochure. My guess is it's more about hating Christians than anything else.

Or maybe they're just misleading people.


As far back as 2017, GCU advertised that its doctoral programs cost between $40,000 and $49,000, but investigators in the enforcement unit of the Federal Student Aid office found that fewer than 2 percent of GCU graduates actually paid that amount. A majority of students in those programs were made to take courses at an added cost to meet their dissertation requirements, increasing their tuition by as much as $12,000, the department said.

Now, it may be the case that it's normal for continuation courses to be required of PhD students who don't get their dissertations finished in 3 years (so that they can stay matriculated while working on it), but it's also pretty normal in a lot of in-person programs for students to work at the university and get paid to do their doctoral work. My wife works in higher ed and nobody in her departments, nor any of our friends, have paid for their doctorates.
 
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Hank77

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37.7 million dollar fine for expecting Ph.D students to be able to read a brochure. My guess is it's more about hating Christians than anything else.

7,500 students were overcharged by $10,000-12,000. The college was fined $5,000 per infraction.
7,500 x 5,000= $37,500,000

The Department of Education found that GCU advertised prices for its doctoral programs that only 2% percent of those programs’ graduates ended up paying. The rest paid more—much more. By the time they completed their degrees, 78% of graduates from these programs had paid $10,000-12,000 more in total tuition than GCU advertised.
...
Earlier this month, before the fine was announced, the President of GCU, Brian Mueller, who is also the CEO of GCE, suggested that the university was being unfairly targeted by the Department of Education. He particularly bemoaned the Department’s unwillingness to recognize its change from a for-profit university to a non-profit for federal financial aid purposesa decision made during the Trump administration while Betsy DeVos was Secretary of Education. Mueller suggested that the refusal was due to some kind of animus.

The Department of Education under DeVos refused to recognize the conversion to non-profit status, stating in the rejection letter that is believed the main purpose of the conversion was to “drive shareholder value for GCE, with GCU as its captive client—potentially in perpetuity.” GCU is now suing the Department over the decision.
...
Grand Canyon University is disputing the Department's findings and has said it will appeal the fine.


 
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PloverWing

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Here's coverage from the AP (Largest Christian university in US faces record fine after federal probe into alleged deception), the US Department of Education (U.S. Department of Education Office of Federal Student Aid Fines Grand Canyon University $37.7 Million for Deceiving Thousands of Students | U.S. Department of Education), and, for fairness, GCU itself (Grand Canyon University appeals unprecedented decision, record fine from U.S. Department of Education - GCU News).

Based on the Fox headline, I expected it to be something related to their religious beliefs -- reproductive health care, restrictions on gay students, something like that. But it's not. It's about (allegedly) misleading students about costs to increase the university's profit.

I'm not in a position to say exactly what GCU said and did; the lawyers will have to sort that out. But deceiving people for profit shouldn't be part of anyone's Christian faith, and I hope we're agreed on that.

The GCU statement (linked above) disturbs me. The quoted statement from the university president talks about "tyranny" and "government overreach" and "weaponization of federal agencies", but I don't see anything like "we're going to correct our marketing information immediately so we don't mislead anyone else".
 
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Jermayn

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Here's coverage from the AP (Largest Christian university in US faces record fine after federal probe into alleged deception), the US Department of Education (U.S. Department of Education Office of Federal Student Aid Fines Grand Canyon University $37.7 Million for Deceiving Thousands of Students | U.S. Department of Education), and, for fairness, GCU itself (Grand Canyon University appeals unprecedented decision, record fine from U.S. Department of Education - GCU News).

Based on the Fox headline, I expected it to be something related to their religious beliefs -- reproductive health care, restrictions on gay students, something like that. But it's not. It's about (allegedly) misleading students about costs to increase the university's profit.

I'm not in a position to say exactly what GCU said and did; the lawyers will have to sort that out. But deceiving people for profit shouldn't be part of anyone's Christian faith, and I hope we're agreed on that.

The GCU statement (linked above) disturbs me. The quoted statement from the university president talks about "tyranny" and "government overreach" and "weaponization of federal agencies", but I don't see anything like "we're going to correct our marketing information immediately so we don't mislead anyone else".
Allegedly the possibility of needing extra classes during dissertation was stated clearly in either the agreement to enroll or the brochure detailing requirements. If that is the case, that's on the students. However, there were no complaints from students so...
 
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iluvatar5150

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Allegedly the possibility of needing extra classes during dissertation was stated clearly in either the agreement to enroll or the brochure detailing requirements. If that is the case, that's on the students. However, there were no complaints from students so...
If that’s the case, don’t make those claims about tuition.
 
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SavedByGrace3

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The fine is entirely out of proportion to the alleged "crime."
These uppity fundies are getting too big for their boots. Biden has to take them down a notch.
 
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iluvatar5150

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The fine is entirely out of proportion to the alleged "crime."

The students were charged upwards of $12k more than was advertised. The school was fined $5k per effected student. Given those numbers, that sounds like a relative slap on the wrist to me.
 
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If that’s the case, don’t make those claims about tuition.
Agreed. The Biden admin should stop making false claims about tuition if it' clearly stated there may be extra requirements, and costs, at any point during enrollment.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Agreed. The Biden admin should stop making false claims about tuition if it' clearly stated there may be extra requirements, and costs, at any point during enrollment.
Have you seen the literature they were passing around?
 
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Jermayn

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Have you seen the literature they were passing around?
As a matter of fact....

1702381658395.png
 
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So the “Total” they list is bogus. If the average student needs an entire year’s worth of credits, then they should be added to another column.
Ok, so here's a perfect example of one of the primary problems with this whole ordeal.

Notice the the FIRST 4 WORDS, with the exception of the name of the degree, are "Displayed are estimates only".
DISPLAYED....ARE.....ESTIMATES.....ONLY....

Next, lets look the the title of the bottom row.

TOTAL....ESTIMATED.....COST.....

Also, lets observe that there are a lot more words that, when read, may communicate other important details about the degree in question. We should not only read, but understand what the words are trying to tell us before we sign our names on any type of document, especially one's that legally bind us to ten's of thousands of dollars of debt.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Ok, so here's a perfect example of one of the primary problems with this whole ordeal.

Notice the the FIRST 4 WORDS, with the exception of the name of the degree, are "Displayed are estimates only".
DISPLAYED....ARE.....ESTIMATES.....ONLY....

Next, lets look the the title of the bottom row.

TOTAL....ESTIMATED.....COST.....

Also, lets observe that there are a lot more words that, when read, may communicate other important details about the degree in question. We should not only read, but understand what the words are trying to tell us before we sign our names on any type of document, especially one's that legally bind us to ten's of thousands of dollars of debt.

They listed 5 years of classes, when the average student needs the equivalent of 6.

If my mechanic “estimates” that my car will need 5 quarts of oil, when 98% of cars he sees will need more, is that a reasonable estimate?

If he quotes me a price for 5 tires on my F350 when it really needs 6, is that a reasonable estimate?

No, that’s not reasonable.

Leaving off 17% of the bill that you know is likely to occur is not an “estimate.” It’s a bait and switch.
 
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If advertising the absolute bottom dollar price for a service or product is a bait and switch, then nearly every business in America is guilty of it. In your oil example, there are no legal requirements for your estimates to target a specific car based on how common it shows up to your garage. Since it is possible for a car to come to your garage and need only 5 quarts of oil for a complete oil change, you are legally allowed to advertise the price based on a car needing 5 quarts of oil, so long as you state, somewhere, that this price is for a car that only needs that amount.

Your tire analogy doesn't make sense in this context because there's not law, at least that I'm aware of, that states you must have x classes to get a Ph.D. Even if there is, a person eligible and interested in a Ph.D. should know what that number is.

Think gas prices. The sign almost always gives you one price per gallon. When you go to fill up with premium gas, it costs a dollar more per gallon. Should they pay a fine for every dollar they've made off premium gas because they only advertised their 87 octane gas?

So, what's the difference between GCU and everyone else that does that same thing?
 
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37.7 million dollar fine for expecting Ph.D students to be able to read a brochure. My guess is it's more about hating Christians than anything else.

The DOE fined them for not clearly disclosing the costs involved with its doctoral programs. The DOE has rules about clear and complete financial disclosures due to rising student debt. They claim that the school broke those rules and despite warnings did nothing to remedy the situation. I'm not the arbiter of the truth here, but I will say that the foxnews "opinion" piece that you link is pretty inflammatory and partisan when it names the president in the title as if it's his doing. It also fails to mention that the maximum fine laid out in the rules for such infractions would be over $500M, so the department cut them quite a bit of slack. That said, I don't know exactly how misleading the disclosures were (since they haven't made them available for public review but that's a matter between the school, it's students and the DOE.

What is more concerning to me is the hyper partisan way in which it has been presented here. I not only read this article but several more from reliable sources as well as the official DOE papers and I will say that if you read only this article, you're not getting the whole story. AT any rate, I would ask the following questions. Regardless of the final outcome in a hearing, why would you, as a Christian post an article that unfairly makes it seem that this is an anti-Christian act perpetrated by President Biden? As a Christian, I don't believe we should run the risk of alienating every Biden supporter to our Christian testimony in order to make some political point. I am also curious, who do you guess is hating Christians? Biden is a well document and long standing Christian who attends church regularly and the DOE is an institution that doesn't have the cognitive ability to feel, much less hate.
 
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Jermayn

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The DOE fined them for not clearly disclosing the costs involved with its doctoral programs. The DOE has rules about clear and complete financial disclosures due to rising student debt. They claim that the school broke those rules and despite warnings did nothing to remedy the situation. I'm not the arbiter of the truth here, but I will say that the foxnews "opinion" piece that you link is pretty inflammatory and partisan when it names the president in the title as if it's his doing. It also fails to mention that the maximum fine laid out in the rules for such infractions would be over $500M, so the department cut them quite a bit of slack. That said, I don't know exactly how misleading the disclosures were (since they haven't made them available for public review but that's a matter between the school, it's students and the DOE.

What is more concerning to me is the hyper partisan way in which it has been presented here. I not only read this article but several more from reliable sources as well as the official DOE papers and I will say that if you read only this article, you're not getting the whole story. AT any rate, I would ask the following questions. Regardless of the final outcome in a hearing, why would you, as a Christian post an article that unfairly makes it seem that this is an anti-Christian act perpetrated by President Biden? As a Christian, I don't believe we should run the risk of alienating every Biden supporter to our Christian testimony in order to make some political point. I am also curious, who do you guess is hating Christians? Biden is a well document and long standing Christian who attends church regularly and the DOE is an institution that doesn't have the cognitive ability to feel, much less hate.
Reading post 14 and my reply in post 15 should answer most of your questions.

As far as the President's Christianity is concerned, there's going to be a lot of people who attend church regularly in Hell. I also don't know who is doing the documenting you're referring to, and I don't need to know because the Bible tells us how we can identify real Christians. By the fruit they bear. The President is a staunch supporter of homosexuality (sin) and transgenderism (sin), just to name a couple abominations being pushed by today's society. That's two huge fruits of the flesh for a professing Christian to bear....
 
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Godsunworthyservant

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Reading post 14 and my reply in post 15 should answer most of your questions.

As far as the President's Christianity is concerned, there's going to be a lot of people who attend church regularly in Hell. I also don't know who is doing the documenting you're referring to, and I don't need to know because the Bible tells us how we can identify real Christians. By the fruit they bear. The President is a staunch supporter of homosexuality (sin) and transgenderism (sin), just to name a couple abominations being pushed by today's society. That's two huge fruits of the flesh for a professing Christian to bear....
I agree. Biden, like all of us, has faults. Politicians are no different than the rest of us. Let me rephrase my previous statement to be more concise. Biden, like every President except Lincoln, identifies as Christian and he attends Mass regularly. As, you note, that doesn't necessarily mean that he is actually living a life that is bearing the fruit of the spirit.

If by being a staunch supporter of homosexuality and transgenderism, you refer to the fact that he supports freedom and equality under the law of the United States for them, I don't see how you equate that with the statement that he is personally a "staunch supporter of homosexuality and transgenderism". Christ taught, "Judge not lest ye be judged". I don't know anymore about Mr. Biden's faith or convictions than what is reported in the public record. I wish we could have a President who actually ran the country according to purely Christian ideals. It's never happened to date and I doubt seriously it ever will. My personal political opinion is a paraphrase of a Will Rogers quote. I always want to vote for the person who is best suited for the job. That person has yet to run.

All that aside, I still can't fathom the jump from the fact that you think he supports homosexuality (and transgenderism) to the statement that he (or those in his administration) hates Christianity. That's a big part of the reason I believe that Christians should refrain from engaging in the hyper-partisan politics that are so prevalent today. It almost invariably leads to inflammatory rhetoric, judgement and ill feelings over things that Christ never told us to concern ourselves with. The late Rev. Billy Graham, who was well known for his involvement with politicians, Presidents and partisan politics, spoke of the issue on several occasions . In a 1981 interview with Parade Magazine, he stated "It would disturb me if there was a wedding between religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest In religion except to manipulate it." When asked in a 2011 interview with Christianity Today if there was anything he would have done differently in his life, he answered that he "would have steered clear of politics.". Christ said, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." and He set the example by the fact that He never said another word about politics.

That said, Christ not only told us what not to do, He told us what to do and I believe that if Christians spent more of their time and resources doing what He did tell us to do and less on those things that He didn't, the world would be a much better place. As I heard an old Baptist preacher say once, "The Bible is full of things God told us not to do. It's also full of the things He told us to do. If every Christian spent their time doing the things He told us to do, we wouldn't even have time for those things He told us not to do."
 
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Jermayn

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I agree. Biden, like all of us, has faults. Politicians are no different than the rest of us. Let me rephrase my previous statement to be more concise. Biden, like every President except Lincoln, identifies as Christian and he attends Mass regularly. As, you note, that doesn't necessarily mean that he is actually living a life that is bearing the fruit of the spirit.

If by being a staunch supporter of homosexuality and transgenderism, you refer to the fact that he supports freedom and equality under the law of the United States for them, I don't see how you equate that with the statement that he is personally a "staunch supporter of homosexuality and transgenderism". Christ taught, "Judge not lest ye be judged". I don't know anymore about Mr. Biden's faith or convictions than what is reported in the public record. I wish we could have a President who actually ran the country according to purely Christian ideals. It's never happened to date and I doubt seriously it ever will. My personal political opinion is a paraphrase of a Will Rogers quote. I always want to vote for the person who is best suited for the job. That person has yet to run.

All that aside, I still can't fathom the jump from the fact that you think he supports homosexuality (and transgenderism) to the statement that he (or those in his administration) hates Christianity. That's a big part of the reason I believe that Christians should refrain from engaging in the hyper-partisan politics that are so prevalent today. It almost invariably leads to inflammatory rhetoric, judgement and ill feelings over things that Christ never told us to concern ourselves with. The late Rev. Billy Graham, who was well known for his involvement with politicians, Presidents and partisan politics, spoke of the issue on several occasions . In a 1981 interview with Parade Magazine, he stated "It would disturb me if there was a wedding between religious fundamentalists and the political right. The hard right has no interest In religion except to manipulate it." When asked in a 2011 interview with Christianity Today if there was anything he would have done differently in his life, he answered that he "would have steered clear of politics.". Christ said, "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." and He set the example by the fact that He never said another word about politics.

That said, Christ not only told us what not to do, He told us what to do and I believe that if Christians spent more of their time and resources doing what He did tell us to do and less on those things that He didn't, the world would be a much better place. As I heard an old Baptist preacher say once, "The Bible is full of things God told us not to do. It's also full of the things He told us to do. If every Christian spent their time doing the things He told us to do, we wouldn't even have time for those things He told us not to do."
Not meant to be hyper-partisan. Trust me, I have plenty of criticism for Republicans and Donald Trump as well.

Freedom and equality under the law for homosexuals and transgenders has went from "we just want to get married" to "we just want to transgender your 3 year olds and take them to gay strip clubs". I seem to remember a certain group of people warning about this around the 2013-2014 timeframe.

The President's cabinet picks reveal a lot about his support for homosexuality and transgenderism. So does what he has to say at a gay pride rally on the White House lawn.
“You’re some of the bravest and most inspiring people I’ve ever known,” Biden says, his speech interrupted repeatedly by raucous cheers and thundering applause. “You set an example for the nation and, quite frankly, for the world.”
Set an example for the world? Really?

Saying the world hates Christianity is easy. Jesus said the world hates him himself. That's because they love their sin. Tell worldly men and women they need to repent of their sin and turn from it and watch them react like a rabid grizzly bear being poked with a stick. They love sin and will rip your head off, quite literally in some places, to defend it.
 
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iluvatar5150

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Not meant to be hyper-partisan. Trust me, I have plenty of criticism for Republicans and Donald Trump as well.

Freedom and equality under the law for homosexuals and transgenders has went from "we just want to get married" to "we just want to transgender your 3 year olds and take them to gay strip clubs".

Who's advocating for taking 3yo's to "gay strip clubs"?
The President's cabinet picks reveal a lot about his support for homosexuality and transgenderism. So does what he has to say at a gay pride rally on the White House lawn.
“You’re some of the bravest and most inspiring people I’ve ever known,” Biden says, his speech interrupted repeatedly by raucous cheers and thundering applause. “You set an example for the nation and, quite frankly, for the world.”
Set an example for the world? Really?

He's probably laying it on a bit thick, but it's hard to deny that it takes a fair amount of courage to question something as fundamental as one's gender identity and then face all of the hate that a good chunk of society throws at you for doing so. And I do mean "hate" - parts of our society are practically seething with it.



Saying the world hates Christianity is easy. Jesus said the world hates him himself. That's because they love their sin. Tell worldly men and women they need to repent of their sin and turn from it and watch them react like a rabid grizzly bear being poked with a stick. They love sin and will rip your head off, quite literally in some places, to defend it.
If all Christians were doing were telling people to repent, I might have some sympathy for them, but one need only read a couple of trans-related thread around here to be practically drowning in "Christian" lies and contempt.
 
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