Does the Mandelbrot Set prove the Mind of God behind what we see.

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
12,819
969
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟248,147.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
The Mandelbrot Set is a complex Mathmatical equation which seems to reveal infinite patterns in Math. It also is known for containing Fractals, the Fibonacci Sequence and Pi (Golden Circle.

It seems when all the numbers in the Mandelbrot Set are given a point of colour they form an unusual pattern which was a surpirse to Mathmaticians.

These patterns add up perfectly containing Fibonacci Sequences that can go on forever creating more and more complex patterns that are self similar in that the same Mandelbrot patterns repeats forever spurning out new patterns that become Mandelbrot patterns. This seems to be beyond what any human could have compreheneded or created.

The facinating thing is these patterns are seen in nature, in some flowers like Sun flowers and vegetables like the Cauliflower, on Pine cones, branches and leaves of trees, in river systems, coast lines, snow flakes, lightening bolts and spiral galaxies.

Is this a sign of some underlying Mind behind nature. Is Math discovered or invented or both. Why does the universe and nature fit so well with Math and how is it that we as intelligent beings are designed to know this.

 
Last edited:

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
23,933
20,285
Flatland
✟873,294.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Squaring a complex number and adding a constant is just arithmetic. The numbers have no choice other than to do what they do.
I'm not sure what your point is. It seems like saying that, whoever was the first person to invent a chord in music, the notes in the chord had no say in the matter. I think everyone would agree but, not sure what the point is.
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,281
6,973
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟375,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The Mandelbrot Set is a complex Mathmatical equation which seems to reveal infinite patterns in Math. It also is known for containing Fractals, the Fibonacci Sequence and Pi (Golden Circle.

It seems when all the numbers in the Mandelbrot Set are given a point of colour they form an unusual pattern which was a surpirse to Mathmaticians.

These patterns add up perfectly containing Fibonacci Sequences that can go on forever creating more and more complex patterns that are self similar in that the same Mandelbrot patterns repeats forever spurning out new patterns that become Mandelbrot patterns. This seems to be beyond what any human could have compreheneded or created.

The facinating thing is these patterns are seen in nature, in some flowers like Sun flowers and vegetables like the Cauliflower, on Pine cones, branches and leaves of trees, in river systems, coast lines, snow flakes, lightening bolts and spiral galaxies.

Is this a sign of some underlying Mind behind nature. Is Math discovered or invented or both. Why does the universe and nature fit so well with Math and how is it that we as intelligent beings are designed to know this.

Even if there was some creative force responsible for complex mathematical patterns, how would you know it was your particular god?
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
12,819
969
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟248,147.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Even if there was some creative force responsible for complex mathematical patterns, how would you know it was your particular god?
I'm not too fused about knowing which God is behind such intelligence. That is another debate. Only that there is this mind behind what we see. In fact there are scientific ideas that posit mind or consciousness as fundemental reality. Even that electrons themselves have an element of mind. Certainly the ancient religions all thought this especially the Bhuddist who practice transcendental mediatation for 1,000s of years.

I think once we realize this reality we will naturally wonder and appreciate that this Mind behind nature is not just a mind but an entity interested in us as well. Its not just the mind of the material world but of our personal world. This then explains why religious belief has been and still is so dominant in the world. Everyone is looking for this connection.

Then its just a case of arguing why there can only be one Mind and not many and perhaps everyone is searching for the same God in different ways. Arguements can be made for only one God and of a particular kind of God that relates to our human condition.

But primarily I was more interested in how the Mandelbrot Set, how Math can be the language of the universe, of reality. How this is so without then positing that there must be some mind behind what we see. That in itself is a radical idea, a paradigm shift in thinking for which I might add is becoming more popular even among atheist scientists because the data seems to point that way in the sciences.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,167
12,123
54
USA
✟303,513.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I'm not too fused about knowing which God is behind such intelligence. That is another debate. Only that there is this mind behind what we see. In fact there are scientific ideas that posit mind or consciousness as fundemental reality.
Not plausible "ideas". The fundamental reality is the various fundamental fields and their quanta on the background of spacetime.
Even that electrons themselves have an element of mind.
Good grief! No they don't.
Certainly the ancient religions all thought this especially the Bhuddist who practice transcendental mediatation for 1,000s of years.
Ancient religions and their musings are irrelevant to the practice of science.
I think once we realize this reality we will naturally wonder and appreciate that this Mind behind nature is not just a mind but an entity interested in us as well. Its not just the mind of the material world but of our personal world. This then explains why religious belief has been and still is so dominant in the world. Everyone is looking for this connection.
I've studied this stuff carefully for decades and never seen any "mind" behind nature.
Then its just a case of arguing why there can only be one Mind and not many and perhaps everyone is searching for the same God in different ways. Arguements can be made for only one God and of a particular kind of God that relates to our human condition.

But primarily I was more interested in how the Mandelbrot Set, how Math can be the language of the universe, of reality.
Math is the "language" used to describe physical systems. Some of it was even developed specifically to do physics. It is not so surprising that the Universe seems to work on math.
How this is so without then positing that there must be some mind behind what we see. That in itself is a radical idea, a paradigm shift in thinking for which I might add is becoming more popular even among atheist scientists because the data seems to point that way in the sciences.
Is it? Never seen any evidence of that. As both an atheist and a scientist I've never thought that for even a second.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
12,819
969
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟248,147.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Not plausible "ideas". The fundamental reality is the various fundamental fields and their quanta on the background of spacetime.
Yes but that doesn't explain the nature of reality. That is still unknown. But the way those fields seem to behave is why theres a growing support for something like a Mind or consciousness field fundementally.

The Consciousness of Reality
Peer-reviewed studies are appearing in the physics literature describing mind-matter interactions in double-slit quantum experiments—a long suspected connection by many pioneers of quantum mechanics.

Beginning with an information ontology, a radical participatory ontology is hinted at. In essence, the human mind is witnessing the most radical paradigm shift in its own history. The well-served and previously glorious materialistic and reductionistic scientific worldview is yielding to a novel scientific conception of subjective consciousness and objective reality—and their unexpected intimate kinship.
The Consciousness of Reality


Good grief! No they don't.
Why not. Some of the pioneers of QM thought so. When we think about it what else could objective reality break down into but Math, Information and knowledge. Thats seems to be what the evidence shows. That information and knowledge comes about by a conscious observer.

What we see as the objective world is but a reflection of something deeper. Something beyond material conceptions. Quantum phyics pioneer Hanry Stapp knew this very well and so did his college John Wheeler.

Henry P. Stapp has for 60 years been a leader – perhaps the leader – in exploring the role of mind/psyche/consciousness/experience in the ontology of quantum mechanics. Henry’s contention is that the very structure of quantum mechanics implies a central and irreducible role for mind: an experiential aspect of nature distinct from that of the physical matter and energy described by the dynamical equations of physics.

That mind may in some way extend beyond the brain and body – connecting personal conscious awareness with more extended sources of information in the world – is a powerful and compelling hypothesis that could account for many currently inexplicable phenomena. It is also a hypothesis that can be subjected to rigorous scientific investigation, both empirical and theoretical.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1904/1904.10528.pdf

Max Planck
I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

Heisenberg recommended staying in touch with reality as we experience it, which is to say holding a place for conceptions of
mind and soul.

Freeman Dyson: “The laws of subatomic physics cannot even be formulated without some reference to the observer. The laws leave a place for mind in the description of every molecule.”[23]

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” (“The Mental Universe” ; Nature 436:29,2005)


So are all these scientists wrong. They don't conclude this because of religious belief but because that is what the data and evidence points them to.
Ancient religions and their musings are irrelevant to the practice of science.
Not really. The study of human behaviour is a science. If human behaviour shows we are spiritual beings and that our Minds can have an influence on reality then thats science not religion. In fact we already know Mind over matter through psychology. Its probably the biggest and final frontier of research that we know very little about. The Hard problem of consciousness testifies to this.
I've studied this stuff carefully for decades and never seen any "mind" behind nature.
It depends I guess in what you choose to look for. If your assumptions and beliefs are that there is only material causes or influences then that is all you will see and look for rationalizing all effects within the causal closure of the physical.

But if we look there are many possible ways Mind can influence reality. I mean even the basic idea that the subject can somehow know objective reality outside the mind is even a true representation when we cannot get outside our minds to do so. The only true reality is our minds, what we consciously experience.

When you step back and realise as a whole how religion and spirituality has had such a big influence on humanity and this world its not just some myth and delusion that tricked us for survival. Its something deeply ingrained in humans and the world. Its something we experience as real and just as real as rocks, and temperature and matter.
Math is the "language" used to describe physical systems. Some of it was even developed specifically to do physics. It is not so surprising that the Universe seems to work on math.
Why is it not so surprising. If the Universe came about without purpose and design then we should not see such order and intelligence in nature. Many great Mathmaticians are amazed and surprised how the Universe fits so beautifully with Math. But more amazingly we humans have the same intelligence to discover this. Its like the same knowledge that's in our heads is also in the universe.

Our connection with the heavens goes back to early civilizations such as the Eqyptians and the stars. So to me it seems like something that transcendes this world and makes us part of the universe able to understand it through the language of Math.
Is it? Never seen any evidence of that. As both an atheist and a scientist I've never thought that for even a second.
Well as mentioned above this seems to be the logical and natural conclusion from the evidence we are finding. It was hinted at during the early years of QM and now is growing in popularity after finding dead ends under the materialistic assumptions of reality. As Chalmers said if we cannot find the answers within the material world then maybe we should expand our search.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeyondET
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,167
12,123
54
USA
✟303,513.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Yes but that doesn't explain the nature of reality. That is still unknown. But the way those fields seem to behave is why theres a growing support for something like a Mind or consciousness field fundementally.
And yet you don't actually cite any such studies, just some essays of a philosophical bent. Like this one...
The Consciousness of Reality
Peer-reviewed studies are appearing in the physics literature describing mind-matter interactions in double-slit quantum experiments—a long suspected connection by many pioneers of quantum mechanics.

Beginning with an information ontology, a radical participatory ontology is hinted at. In essence, the human mind is witnessing the most radical paradigm shift in its own history. The well-served and previously glorious materialistic and reductionistic scientific worldview is yielding to a novel scientific conception of subjective consciousness and objective reality—and their unexpected intimate kinship.

The Consciousness of Reality


"The views expressed are those of the author(s) and are not necessarily those of Scientific American."

You sure get a lot of mileage out of this ~5-year-old essay which is nothing more than an add for his book.

Why not. Some of the pioneers of QM thought so. When we think about it what else could objective reality break down into but Math, Information and knowledge. Thats seems to be what the evidence shows. That information and knowledge comes about by a conscious observer.
Again, you fail to produce this "evidence".
What we see as the objective world is but a reflection of something deeper. Something beyond material conceptions. Quantum phyics pioneer Hanry Stapp knew this very well and so did his college John Wheeler.

Henry P. Stapp has for 60 years been a leader – perhaps the leader – in exploring the role of mind/psyche/consciousness/experience in the ontology of quantum mechanics. Henry’s contention is that the very structure of quantum mechanics implies a central and irreducible role for mind: an experiential aspect of nature distinct from that of the physical matter and energy described by the dynamical equations of physics.

That mind may in some way extend beyond the brain and body – connecting personal conscious awareness with more extended sources of information in the world – is a powerful and compelling hypothesis that could account for many currently inexplicable phenomena. It is also a hypothesis that can be subjected to rigorous scientific investigation, both empirical and theoretical.

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1904/1904.10528.pdf

Max Planck
I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.

Heisenberg recommended staying in touch with reality as we experience it, which is to say holding a place for conceptions of
mind and soul.

Freeman Dyson: “The laws of subatomic physics cannot even be formulated without some reference to the observer. The laws leave a place for mind in the description of every molecule.”[23]

Pioneering physicist Sir James Jeans wrote: “The stream of knowledge is heading toward a non-mechanical reality; the universe begins to look more like a great thought than like a great machine. Mind no longer appears to be an accidental intruder into the realm of matter, we ought rather hail it as the creator and governor of the realm of matter. Get over it, and accept the inarguable conclusion. The universe is immaterial-mental and spiritual.” (“The Mental Universe” ; Nature 436:29,2005)


So are all these scientists wrong. They don't conclude this because of religious belief but because that is what the data and evidence points them to.
All you really have is a bunch of "mushy" quotes of bewilderment about the odd nature of QM. These are no more evidence than the essay posted above.
Not really. The study of human behaviour is a science. If human behaviour shows we are spiritual beings and that our Minds can have an influence on reality then thats science not religion. In fact we already know Mind over matter through psychology. Its probably the biggest and final frontier of research that we know very little about. The Hard problem of consciousness testifies to this.
And yet consciousness can only be detected in things with brains. Wonder why?
It depends I guess in what you choose to look for. If your assumptions and beliefs are that there is only material causes or influences then that is all you will see and look for rationalizing all effects within the causal closure of the physical.

But if we look there are many possible ways Mind can influence reality. I mean even the basic idea that the subject can somehow know objective reality outside the mind is even a true representation when we cannot get outside our minds to do so. The only true reality is our minds, what we consciously experience.

When you step back and realise as a whole how religion and spirituality has had such a big influence on humanity and this world its not just some myth and delusion that tricked us for survival. Its something deeply ingrained in humans and the world. Its something we experience as real and just as real as rocks, and temperature and matter.
People do things. Great.
Why is it not so surprising. If the Universe came about without purpose and design then we should not see such order and intelligence in nature.
That's an assumption and there is no basis for it.
Many great Mathmaticians are amazed and surprised how the Universe fits so beautifully with Math. But more amazingly we humans have the same intelligence to discover this. Its like the same knowledge that's in our heads is also in the universe.
And yet you don't cite even their opinions. (And that's all these are -- opinions.)
Our connection with the heavens goes back to early civilizations such as the Eqyptians and the stars. So to me it seems like something that transcendes this world and makes us part of the universe able to understand it through the language of Math.
THere is no accounting for taste.
Well as mentioned above this seems to be the logical and natural conclusion from the evidence we are finding. It was hinted at during the early years of QM and now is growing in popularity after finding dead ends under the materialistic assumptions of reality. As Chalmers said if we cannot find the answers within the material world then maybe we should expand our search.

Who is chalmers? He must be a realy important scientist if we've never heard of him.
 
Upvote 0

jayem

Naturalist
Jun 24, 2003
15,281
6,973
72
St. Louis, MO.
✟375,281.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Then its just a case of arguing why there can only be one Mind and not many and perhaps everyone is searching for the same God in different ways. Arguements can be made for only one God and of a particular kind of God that relates to our human condition.
I'd like to know the characteristics of this particular god/mind that relates to our human condition. Given the overwhelming number of planets in the universe, it's a virtual certainly that life exists on many others. Does this "mind" relate to these other life forms, too? And how did this mind come to be? Did it always exist? Did it initiate the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago? Or was it also a product of the BB?

Our brains evolved to seek causes, reasons, and answers. When an answer isn't clearly obvious, we create one. Which throughout history, has usually been some variety of supernatural agency. But why waste time speculating on gods and metaphysical "minds?" It's true that the more we discover about how matter and energy operate, the more mysteries we'll encounter. But that's OK. The thrill of naturalistic science is in the journey, not the destination. :oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

partinobodycular

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
1,894
804
partinowherecular
✟89,549.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Our brains evolved to seek causes, reasons, and answers. When an answer isn't clearly obvious, we create one. Which throughout history, has usually been some variety of supernatural agency. But why waste time speculating on gods and metaphysical "minds?" It's true that the more we discover about how matter and energy operate, the more mysteries we'll encounter. But that's OK. The thrill of naturalistic science is in the journey, not the destination. :oldthumbsup:

Every once in a while you'll say something with which I agree... not often, but every now and then.

Congratulations... this is one of those times. But let's continue following your reasoning.

You're still making a few too many assumptions, but deductive reasoning pretty much requires them, and inductive reasoning can't get very far without them either.

So voila... people assume things. No problem. Unfortunately, once beyond a certain threshold assumptions begin to be treated as pseudo-facts, and defended as such. In which case we get speculative threads about Mandelbrot Sets possibly being indicative of some overarching mind. But let's face it folks... it's just math. It's just a systematical way of describing cause and effect, and space and time, and the relationship between them. It's ordered, and coherent, and intelligible. That's it. That's the world we live in... full stop.

But what else does this tell us? Well, working from the assumption that the effect is indicative of the cause, it tells us that the cause is probably ordered, coherent, and intelligible as well. I.E. it's probably natural, just like absolutely everything else that we've ever encountered. But contrary to many naturalists' opinions... ordered, coherent, and intelligible can also be precursors of consciousness. Hence, if we're being honest with ourselves we have to ask the question... is the cause conscious?

The knee-jerk reaction is to say no... but why?

Well... because only flesh and blood beings can be conscious... again, why?

I don't agree with the OP's argument that Mandelbrot Sets are evidence for an overarching mind, they're just math. But they are indicative of an innate characteristic of reality... it's ordered, coherent, and intelligible... and for any open minded person that must at least raise the possibility that there does exist out there somewhere a consciousness other than ourselves... other than gray matter crammed into an ossified box.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: jayem
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
12,819
969
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟248,147.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I'd like to know the characteristics of this particular god/mind that relates to our human condition. Given the overwhelming number of planets in the universe, it's a virtual certainly that life exists on many others. Does this "mind" relate to these other life forms, too? And how did this mind come to be? Did it always exist? Did it initiate the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago? Or was it also a product of the BB?
I think we can deduce certain qualities like a God who understands humans rather than some representation of a human aspect attached to a god. Or a personal God as opposed to an impersonal one. Perhaps a creative and moral God because humans are also moral creatures and a god should be able to relate to humans.

Even a God of truth as truth is often associated with gods. Therefore an arguement that there could only be one god of truth as oposed to many gods of truth which would undermine the idea of truth. Perhaps an all knowing god to be worthy as a moral judge. Before long you can build up certain qualities of a god which should logically be associated with god as opposed to other qualities.

As far as life on other planets we don't know so all we can do is go by what is fact right now which is we don't know so cannot make any assertions about gods and alien life. BUt I would say a logical reasoning would be that the one God, the same God is God of all the universe. That would make sense as it would defeat the purpose to have many gods governing different parts of the universe all working against each other.
Our brains evolved to seek causes, reasons, and answers. When an answer isn't clearly obvious, we create one. Which throughout history, has usually been some variety of supernatural agency. But why waste time speculating on gods and metaphysical "minds?" It's true that the more we discover about how matter and energy operate, the more mysteries we'll encounter. But that's OK. The thrill of naturalistic science is in the journey, not the destination. :oldthumbsup:
I agree, so long as we keep an open mind. The problem with only using naturalistic material science is that you end up with a pretty narrow windown to see the world and reality. The majority of people in this world don't think that way yet they believe their reality is just as valid as any objective reality.

In fact we could say naturalistic and material science is just as much a belief in some metaphysical ontology (realism, matter outside our minds) as religion is.

This is now especially true in that quantum physics has now undermined the deterministic and materialistic view that fundemental reality is something solid and physical when its actually immaterial and non-deterministic.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
12,819
969
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟248,147.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
And yet you don't actually cite any such studies, just some essays of a philosophical bent. Like this one...
Yes I did ie the other paper mentions Wheelers experiments which have been scientifically supported.

Remarkably, Wheeler’s delayed choice experiment (Wheeler 1978)—where a choice made now by an observer can change or edit the past of a photon—has been experimentally confirmed and published in the prestigious journal Science (Jacques et al. 2007):

The article you are referring to mentions this

As our understanding of physics progressed, we’ve realized that atoms themselves can be further divided into smaller bits, and those into yet smaller ones, and so on, until what is left lacks shape and solidity altogether. At the bottom of the chain of physical reduction there are only elusive, phantasmal entities we label as “energy” and “fields”—abstract conceptual tools for describing nature, which themselves seem to lack any real, concrete essence.

To some physicists, this indicates that what we call “matter,” with its solidity and concreteness—is an illusion; that only the mathematical apparatus they devise in their theories is truly real, not the perceived world the apparatus was created to describe in the first place.
From their point of view, such a counterintuitive conclusion is an implication of theory, not a conspicuously narcissistic and self-defeating proposition.

In other words for some physicists the evidence for a non-material reality at the very bottom naturally leads to theories about the non-material basis for reality like Information, Mind or Consciousness. Qunatum mechanics has undermined the (billiard ball schema) and a paradigm shift is occuring into the non-material basis for reality. They are just following where the evdience is going.
"The views expressed are those of the author(s) and are not necessarily those of Scientific American."

You sure get a lot of mileage out of this ~5-year-old essay which is nothing more than an add for his book.
Yet Scientific American published the paper,. If it was pseudoscience then Scientific American would not entertain the idea. Using the age of the paper is also irrelevant, academic standards allow up to 10 years as a general rule but some papers 50 years old can be verified science. You need to address the contents of the paper.

The same ideas have been published in many journals and is becoming more popular in mainstream science.
Again, you fail to produce this "evidence".
The evidence comes from those pioneers like Wheeler if you are willing to research them. Wigner is another whose experiements have been scientifically supported that the observer can influence reality and that Mind/consciousness is fundemnetal..

The “von Neumann–Wigner interpretation”, also described as “consciousness causes collapse” of Ψ, postulates that consciousness is an essential factor in quantum measurements. Časlav Brukner at the University of Vienna showed that, under certain assumptions, Wigner's idea can be used to formally prove that measurements in quantum mechanics are subjective to observers.
https://phys.org/news/2019-11-quantum-physics-reality-doesnt.html
A quantum experiment suggests there’s no such thing as objective reality
Physicists have long suspected that quantum mechanics allows two observers to experience different, conflicting realities. Now they’ve performed the first experiment that proves it.

Modern day arguements​

WHY IS SCIENCE GROWING COMFORTABLE WITH PANPSYCHISM (“EVERYTHING IS CONSCIOUS”)?

Making Sense of the Mental Universe
I have proposed an idealist framework as ontological underpinning for the relational interpretation of quantum mechanics. According to this framework, a universal mind is the sole ontological primitive underlying all reality.
http://ispcjournal.org/journals/2017-19/Kastrup_19.pdf

Tononi's theory of Integrated Information Theory (IIT), published in the journal BMC Neuroscience, is one of a small class of promising models of consciousness. “IIT is a very mathematical theory,”
https://www.space.com/is-the-universe-conscious
All you really have is a bunch of "mushy" quotes of bewilderment about the odd nature of QM. These are no more evidence than the essay posted above.
Mushy quotes. The quotes are really a summarized statement about what the science shows according to these physicists rather than off the cuff quotes. They have a lot of thought and testing behind them. Do you really think Plank was being mushy when he spoke about QM. That what he said could be just taken as mush and not have any substance.

I mean Stapp had over 60 years of working in QM and consciousness. Do you think he says what he says lightly with having some evdience or arguement. Its like saying a doctor who says smoking causes health problems is quoting from the evdience and not just making a mushy quote with no evidence. All these physicisys quoted out of what the scientific evdience was showing. I would have thought you knew this about these physicists like for example Plank is well known in QM so his position should be well known. Or “von Neumann–Wigner interpretation” of QM. Surely you know of this and that its not based on mush.
And yet consciousness can only be detected in things with brains. Wonder why?
Like radio waves can be detected in radios. If what we don't know about consciousness is not a reason to wonder then we are not wondering enough. Wondering is what scientists have been doing when it comes to consciousness because they cannot work it out.

Consciousness cannot be detected in brains, the actual neurons and connections they are just correlated with consciousness. There is no conscious experience of color or music in neurons. Neuron activity is just the physical behaviour of conscious thinking. You can't point to anywhere in the brain and say that is the experience of red. There is no color red in the brain, there is no sunset in the brain that gives the experience of awe.

Consciousness can only be measured by the actual experience itself from the subject. And thats why science, measuring brain activity can never explain consciousness. Thats why its called the 'Hard Problem of Consciousness' because your trying to use a quantitative measure on something that is of qualitative measure.

And there is some evdience for consciousness beyond brain.
That's an assumption and there is no basis for it.
Why when theres a growing body of research and ideas around the universe, nature and reality being linked to Information, Math, Knowledge and Mind. The reason being that is where the evdience is pointing so its not just an assumption. In fact the Mind/Information paradigmatic shift in thinking seems to render more simple arguements that can account for the many Hard Problems the naturalistic and materialist view faces.

The Universe Speaks in Numbers
The Universe Speaks in Numbers | Not Even Wrong
And yet you don't cite even their opinions. (And that's all these are -- opinions.)
Their qualified opinions from those who seem to know what they are talking about. I mean once again you should know this as its common knowledge among Mathmaticians. If you want to object then you need to understand what the opposition is saying.

I like Henry Stapp as he seems to understand the link between QM and consciousness and makes a good arguement for why interpreting the evidence points to Mind, to conscious observers influencing reality.

“From the point of view of the mathematics of quantum theory it makes no sense to treat a measuring device as intrinsically different from the collection of atomic constituents that make it up. A device is just another part of the physical universe… Moreover, the conscious thoughts of a human observer ought to be causally connected most directly and immediately to what is happening in his brain, not to what is happening out at some measuring device.

ontology is always defined by epistemology which is primary. In simple terms, knowledge (a faculty of the human mind) is primary and matter secondary (i.e., Stapp argues for “the primacy of consciousness”).

As we argued previously in the context of psychophysical/introspective measurements, we are not just passively recording but actively creating physical/psychological observables. In this context it has been argued that physics faces its final frontier – consciousness (H. Stapp, 2007).

According to Stapp, two factors seem to be involved in any measurement: the observer (the one who is asking the question) and the observed (i.e., matter/nature). However, according to Stapp (who was a collaborator of Werner Heisenberg), quantum theory transcends this dualistic dichotomy between epistemology and ontology because it was realized that the only “thing” that really existed is knowledge. That is, ontology is always defined by epistemology which is primary. In simple terms, knowledge (a faculty of the human mind) is primary and matter secondary (i.e., Stapp argues for “the primacy of consciousness”).

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-03633-1_14
Who is chalmers? He must be a realy important scientist if we've never heard of him.
Lol I would have thought if you have done any research on consciousness you would know David Chalmers. Perhaps one of the worlds most famous philosophers and cognitive scientists on consciousness. Chalmers came up with the idea of the 'Hard Problem of Consciousness' and the Zombie thought experiement relating to consciousness.
David Chalmers - Wikipedia
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chesterton
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,454
36,745
Los Angeles Area
✟833,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Yes I did ie the other paper mentions Wheelers experiments which have been scientifically supported.

Remarkably, Wheeler’s delayed choice experiment (Wheeler 1978)—where a choice made now by an observer can change or edit the past of a photon—has been experimentally confirmed and published in the prestigious journal Science (Jacques et al. 2007):
While the thought experiment talks about 'delayed choice', the choice is not actually made by a human observer consciously flipping a switch in the physical experiments, but rather by some quick computer switching. In the case of Jacques, a "quantum random number generator" was used to 'choose'.
 
Upvote 0

OldAbramBrown

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2023
807
140
69
England
✟22,720.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
The grave error in the essay is in the implied usage of the word "mind". Individuals have separate minds. The phenomena are such as to suggest as if they had been created by some mind (some of us believe, on other grounds, that it was our particular God's mind). They don't prove it. They don't "explain" it. Some things don't need "explanation". The aesthetics in nature is exactly aesthetics, neither more nor less. Aesthetics is meaningful for reason. Describing it, is poetry with some logic thrown in and that's good in itself. Facile "apologetism" with its "gotchas" as its panaceas has harmed honesty on all sides.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,167
12,123
54
USA
✟303,513.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Like most of your reply posts, this one is too long. So who knows what of it I will respond to...
Yes I did ie the other paper mentions Wheelers experiments which have been scientifically supported.

Remarkably, Wheeler’s delayed choice experiment (Wheeler 1978)—where a choice made now by an observer can change or edit the past of a photon—has been experimentally confirmed and published in the prestigious journal Science (Jacques et al. 2007):
That book chapter is not helping your case. It too was nothing more than a (lengthy and rambling) essay of a largely philosophical bent. I mean, seriously, Geller, Sheldrake, "Psi", pfft. Really? (And the notion that all of this stuff somehow gets to the kind of god you care about is laughable. Even the most "scientific" of the speculations gets to something far from the Christian notion.)
The article you are referring to mentions this

As our understanding of physics progressed, we’ve realized that atoms themselves can be further divided into smaller bits, and those into yet smaller ones, and so on, until what is left lacks shape and solidity altogether. At the bottom of the chain of physical reduction there are only elusive, phantasmal entities we label as “energy” and “fields”—abstract conceptual tools for describing nature, which themselves seem to lack any real, concrete essence.

To some physicists, this indicates that what we call “matter,” with its solidity and concreteness—is an illusion; that only the mathematical apparatus they devise in their theories is truly real, not the perceived world the apparatus was created to describe in the first place.
From their point of view, such a counterintuitive conclusion is an implication of theory, not a conspicuously narcissistic and self-defeating proposition.

In other words for some physicists the evidence for a non-material reality at the very bottom naturally leads to theories about the non-material basis for reality like Information, Mind or Consciousness. Qunatum mechanics has undermined the (billiard ball schema) and a paradigm shift is occuring into the non-material basis for reality. They are just following where the evdience is going.
And here I thought they were just wandering in the gaps that evidence and solid theory leave behind -- speculation.
Yet Scientific American published the paper,. If it was pseudoscience then Scientific American would not entertain the idea.
It's not a "paper" in the scientific sense. It is an essay. And Scientific American is not a scientific journal.
Using the age of the paper is also irrelevant, academic standards allow up to 10 years as a general rule but some papers 50 years old can be verified science.
I've never heard of such a rule. They must have forgotten to tell me about it. My point about the age was that is just an old ad for someone's book.
You need to address the contents of the paper.
The Scientific American piece is an essay not a paper.
I think I'll skip all of the consciousness/QM stuff for now.
Lol I would have thought if you have done any research on consciousness you would know David Chalmers.
I've never done any research on consciousness. I'm a physicist, not a psychologist or neurobiologist, and a skeptic of philosophy.
Perhaps one of the worlds most famous philosophers and cognitive scientists on consciousness. Chalmers came up with the idea of the 'Hard Problem of Consciousness' and the Zombie thought experiement relating to consciousness.
David Chalmers - Wikipedia
OK, but hardly a household name like Wheeler.
 
Upvote 0

partinobodycular

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
1,894
804
partinowherecular
✟89,549.00
Country
United States
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Remarkably, Wheeler’s delayed choice experiment (Wheeler 1978)—where a choice made now by an observer can change or edit the past of a photon—has been experimentally confirmed and published in the prestigious journal Science (Jacques et al. 2007):

Except for one really tiny detail... it's completely wrong.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
2,907
1,720
24
WI
✟95,086.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Mandelbrot Set is a complex Mathmatical equation which seems to reveal infinite patterns in Math. It also is known for containing Fractals, the Fibonacci Sequence and Pi (Golden Circle.

It seems when all the numbers in the Mandelbrot Set are given a point of colour they form an unusual pattern which was a surpirse to Mathmaticians.

These patterns add up perfectly containing Fibonacci Sequences that can go on forever creating more and more complex patterns that are self similar in that the same Mandelbrot patterns repeats forever spurning out new patterns that become Mandelbrot patterns. This seems to be beyond what any human could have compreheneded or created.

The facinating thing is these patterns are seen in nature, in some flowers like Sun flowers and vegetables like the Cauliflower, on Pine cones, branches and leaves of trees, in river systems, coast lines, snow flakes, lightening bolts and spiral galaxies.

Is this a sign of some underlying Mind behind nature. Is Math discovered or invented or both. Why does the universe and nature fit so well with Math and how is it that we as intelligent beings are designed to know this.

As a Christian and somewhat of a nerd, that video seems like clickbait. God invented math, and humans invented the study of math, but the Mandelbrot set is just how the numbers work out, and is a poor example to prove or disprove God inventing math. A better example would be the fine-structure constant, a value that determines how charged electrons and light interact: Current advances: The fine-structure constant.

If the fine structure constant was off by a bit, we wouldn't be here. If other constants were off slightly, the universe or life would not exist.
 
Upvote 0

Hans Blaster

Rocket surgeon
Mar 11, 2017
15,167
12,123
54
USA
✟303,513.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
2,907
1,720
24
WI
✟95,086.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
If by 5% to 50% then sure, probably not.

Not really.
My comment was based off of the fine-tuning principle. But the Mandelbrot set is just pure math, and has no application to proving or disproving God. There are plenty of other math or science subjects that a Christian could use that hold much more weight, such as the Big Bang, meaning the universe had a beginning, just as the Bible said creation had a beginning, and the priest/astronomer Georges Lemaitre.

I am not sure if you are Christian or agnostic, but whatever the case, we can both agree that the Mandelbrot set is the weakest tool in the arsenal for apologists to use to prove God's existence. And hey, that is coming from a Christian guy. :)
 
Upvote 0