How are they saved if they never hear the gospel?

Der Alte · Nov 14, 2023

Derf said:
But if someone never heard the gospel, or anything to tell them who they should have faith in, what is their fate? Damnation or salvation? Or can one tell from the information given?

Romans 2:14-15
(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Derf · Nov 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
Romans 2:14-15

(14) For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

(15) Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

We went over this earlier in the thread. If salvation is by grace, then how is it they are saved by law, even if a law "unto themselves"? So that verse can't be talking about a mechanism for salvation, right?

Der Alte · Nov 14, 2023

Derf said:
We went over this earlier in the thread. If salvation is by grace, then how is it they are saved by law, even if a law "unto themselves"? So that verse can't be talking about a mechanism for salvation, right?

Can't you figure it out? God grants them grace because they do what the law requires. If I'm wrong about that God will straighten me out when I get home. Which is a lot closer now.

Derf · Nov 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
Can't you figure it out? God grants them grace because they do what the law requires. If I'm wrong about that God will straighten me out when I get home. Which is a lot closer now.

Ok, but then why is Paul so strict with the Galatians, who were just trying to do what the law required?

RDKirk · Nov 14, 2023

Derf said:
Ok, but then why is Paul so strict with the Galatians, who were just trying to do what the law required?

Nothing the law required was salvational.

Derf · Nov 14, 2023

RDKirk said:
Nothing the law required was salvational.

Go back to the Gentiles who are a law unto themselves...how could anything in such a law be salvational?

Der Alte · Nov 14, 2023

Derf said:
Go back to the Gentiles who are a law unto themselves...how could anything in such a law be salvational?

Depends on which laws. E.g. the laws concerning criminal acts, murder, theft, etc vs, ceremonial laws, sacrifices, not trimming beard etc.

Derf · Nov 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
Depends on which laws. E.g. the laws concerning criminal acts, murder, theft, etc vs, ceremonial laws, sacrifices, not trimming beard etc.

So you're saying there are SOME laws that can save you??

Der Alte · Nov 14, 2023

Derf said:
So you're saying there are SOME laws that can save you??

Seems that you are intent on being argumentative. That ain't what I said or implied. What do you think?

Derf · Nov 14, 2023

Der Alte said:
Seems that you are intent on being argumentative. That ain't what I said or implied. What do you think?

So help me to understand...if there are some that can be saved because they are a law unto themselves, but they never hear the gospel, how are they saved? Are they saved because God sees their heart and applies Christ's sacrifice to them though they never believed the actual gospel (this would fit unreached people, but not babies who die)? Or are they presented with a choice at some point after they are resurrected (this would perhaps fit babies, but I question whether the bible supports it for them, much less for unreached people)?

sparow · Nov 15, 2023

Derf said:
I'm starting with the assumption that there is a way those who haven't heard the gospel CAN be saved. An additional assumption that's implied is eternal lake of fire for those not in the book of life.

I'll give my answer in a following post, but feel free to offer solutions, preferably with biblical support.

Thanks to @bbbbbbb for the suggestion.

What is required is that a person be called and chosen; when a person is called I am sure opportunity and knowledge, would be afforded to him.

Der Alte · Nov 15, 2023

Derf said:
So help me to understand...if there are some that can be saved because they are a law unto themselves, but they never hear the gospel, how are they saved? Are they saved because God sees their heart and applies Christ's sacrifice to them though they never believed the actual gospel (this would fit unreached people, but not babies who die)? Or are they presented with a choice at some point after they are resurrected (this would perhaps fit babies, but I question whether the bible supports it for them, much less for unreached people)?

So you think God will punish innocent babies? Babies and small children don't know, can't comprehend or understand the law thus there is no sin.

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

RDKirk · Nov 15, 2023

Der Alte said:
So you think God will punish innocent babies? Babies and small children don't know, can't comprehend or understand the law thus there is no sin.

Romans 4:15

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

I believe that in Romans Paul provides several different debates that he commonly had with Jews in the synagogues. Reading Romans, one has to be careful to distinguish where Paul shifts from one debate to another. Not all translations distinguish the change of debate, which changes the context of the words.

In Romans 4, Paul is not talking about the Mosaic Law specifically and solely, but the basic concept and effect of God uttering a commandment (some translations do use the word "commandment" here). If God had never uttered any commandment of any sort, the concept of "sin" would not even exist, because there would be no command to disobey.

When God uttered a commandment, then sin became possible. It took the utterance of the command to make sin possible in the universe. There is no sin possible, the very concept of sin does not exist, without there first being a commandment.

That is what Paul is talking about here...he's not talking specifically about the Mosaic Law itself. We have to make sure we recognize the context of the specific debate Paul is making, because that context matters.

Derf · Nov 15, 2023

sparow said:
What is required is that a person be called and chosen; when a person is called I am sure opportunity and knowledge, would be afforded to him.

Even a preborn who is aborted?

Derf · Nov 15, 2023

Der Alte said:
So you think God will punish innocent babies? Babies and small children don't know, can't comprehend or understand the law thus there is no sin.

Romans 4:15

(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13

(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Keep reading:
Romans 5:14 KJV — Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death is the wages of sin. Babies die.

Der Alte · Nov 15, 2023

Derf said:
Keep reading:
Romans 5:14 KJV — Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death is the wages of sin. Babies die.

I'm done here. You go ahead and believe that God will punish innocent children and babies.

Derf · Nov 15, 2023

Der Alte said:
I'm done here. You go ahead and believe that God will punish innocent children and babies.

I'm just saying that death is a penalty for sin, and babies die. I don't believe God is unjust, so we should seek out an understanding that accounts for those 3 things.

If I'm wrong about some part of it, telling me seems a better solution than not telling me.

sparow · Nov 15, 2023

Derf said:
Even a preborn who is aborted?

I doubt that abortion is a problem for God, only a problem for men.

sparow · Nov 15, 2023

Derf said:
Keep reading:
Romans 5:14 KJV — Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death is the wages of sin. Babies die.

I would argue that if the first death is punishment, some die a terrible death and some die in their sleep, then the first life is also punishment, some live a terrible life (far worse than death), a few have a good life. It seems to me that most punishment has a cause preceding Adam, like the war in heaven maybe.

Derf · Nov 15, 2023

sparow said:
I doubt that abortion is a problem for God, only a problem for men.

Death was a problem for man, so God made it a problem for Himself.

sparow said:
I would argue that if the first death is punishment, some die a terrible death and some die in their sleep, then the first life is also punishment, some live a terrible life (far worse than death), a few have a good life. It seems to me that most punishment has a cause preceding Adam, like the war in heaven maybe.

Do you think Adam's death was caused by something preceding Adam? Or was it caused by Adam's sin?

How are they saved if they never hear the gospel?

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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