Mat 28:1 teaches Shabbat Resurrection

Avodat said:

Yonah certainly knows his stuff but, for any of us, when you are up against the unteachable you have to decide how much time to give to them - or to move on to those who are eager to hold sensible debates and to learn from others who have spent years, themselves, mastering these various things.

I have enough to be getting on with, like you, than to spend as many hours as Daniel et al will take from us in futile debate. Someone who is so bound up in their own limited knowledge will never see how foolish they look to people in the world. A good maxim I hold to is 'never argue with a fool - those looking on may not be able to tell the difference'. The logic being that you'll never win against a fool...and you'll look a fool for trying.

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And I think that’s the key to understanding these opposite verses of the Proverbs:


You’re certainly never win against a fool. If you don’t answer, he will think that he’s beat you and will boast to everyone – and those who do not understand will think him better-informed than themselves and go with him. If you do answer him, you get entangled in his web of thoughts – for the thinking of such men rarely represents clear pathways of sense.

I find that I get trapped by these very verses in all of my dealings on CARM. There is a user there who boasts of his own knowledge (of Hebrew and Greek) with having no basis at all. He argues and abuses and pesters everyone on the forum, and if you do not answer him, he runs amok with his opinions. If you do answer him, you get entangled in the discussion that is nothing but stiff-necked insistence on his rightness. Onlookers must think the show is just ridiculous. But, I’m not sure how to avoid it, since I’d like the languages forum there to be worthwhile and for people to get something out of it. Such is absolutely impossible in some instances. Do we just give up the forum and let lunatics run free with their stupid opinions? What is the solution?

WOFFED said:

Tue afternoon before sunset is still the Third Day, 13 Aviv. However, Friday afternoon before sunset is still the Sixth Day, 16 Aviv with 17 Aviv being the Seventh Day ... Do any of you agree with netzarim's figuring?

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My timeline references 31 A.D., where the weekly Sabbath day occurs on 18 Aviv, and Tuesday afternoon before sunset is indeed 14 Aviv. What year are you referring to?

Since when do the majority of Messianics believe ... Yeshua's death occurred on Tuesday afternoon; which he believes is 14 Aviv. Yet, he doesn't seem to have any scripture or other reliable source material to support what he refers to as his "theory."

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As many here knows, I do not automatically side with the majority or the establishment. cf. Mt 7:13-14, Lk 13:24, etc. If I did, I'd still be a mainstream Christian! Did Messiah side with the majority or establishment in His time? Also, I've given many different scripture verses in support of my theory.

Don't know about the others, but as for me I think your "theory" is tettering on apostasy.

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Is it apostasy ("abandoning the faith") to suggest an alternate timeline? Did I reject Messiah and His blood or His Word? Did I reject YHWH by presenting a new perspective on the Passion week? How did I commit apostasy?

IMO Tishri1 should temporarily close this thread for review. Especially, after your previous comment about **First Fruits (Aviv 16) ... **First Fruits (16 Aviv): Messiah presented Himself in the heavenly Temple as the wave and burnt offering to YHWH, on behalf of and to accept those who are faithful in Him.

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How does my new speculative interpretation regarding Messiah's fulfillment inaccurately reflect the original symbolism of the FirstFruits moed?

yonah_mishael said:

And I think that’s the key to understanding these opposite verses of the Proverbs:

Proverbs 26:4-5 (NIV)
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes.​

You’re certainly never win against a fool. If you don’t answer, he will think that he’s beat you and will boast to everyone – and those who do not understand will think him better-informed than themselves and go with him. If you do answer him, you get entangled in his web of thoughts – for the thinking of such men rarely represents clear pathways of sense.

I find that I get trapped by these very verses in all of my dealings on CARM. There is a user there who boasts of his own knowledge (of Hebrew and Greek) with having no basis at all. He argues and abuses and pesters everyone on the forum, and if you do not answer him, he runs amok with his opinions. If you do answer him, you get entangled in the discussion that is nothing but stiff-necked insistence on his rightness. Onlookers must think the show is just ridiculous. But, I’m not sure how to avoid it, since I’d like the languages forum there to be worthwhile and for people to get something out of it. Such is absolutely impossible in some instances. Do we just give up the forum and let lunatics run free with their stupid opinions? What is the solution?

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To a certain extent you have done the right thing, in my view. To openly show where somewhere is in error and, after trying to correct them, unsuccessfully on these fora, finally say that you will not debate with someone who is wrong and clearly of an unteachable spirit. I cannot see any other answer, though I recognise the dilemma in which you find yourself. His answer to my request to say in which way he is qualified to teach Greek / Hebrew (he having asked that of you) brought the usual response for someone who is NOT qualified: one doesn't have to have a formal qualification. Therein is his problem - he thinks he knows a lot more than, in reality, he actually does. He cannot lose face (and what seems to be his business) by being shown up as poorly qualified in what he has set out to do, so he will keep up the arguments because his living is based on it; he can't afford to let you win, in other words! He probably didn't reckon that someone on here would be as knowledgeable as you are in languages.

I like 30 AD.. as per Jewish Calendar April 0030 | Hebcal Jewish Calendar

Were my life expectancy before physical death >600 years, I would probably immerse myself in this thread to try and figure out just WHAT is being discussed. As it is <600 years, I will agree w an above poster that a casual onlooker sees crazy town is on parade. No offense intended as I can not understand what is going on, but I am a poorly qualified onlooker and yes, the whole show from a distance is ridiculous.

JR

cubanito said:

Were my life expectancy before physical death >600 years, I would probably immerse myself in this thread to try and figure out just WHAT is being discussed. As it is <600 years, I will agree w an above poster that a casual onlooker sees crazy town is on parade. No offense intended as I can not understand what is going on, but I am a poorly qualified onlooker and yes, the whole show from a distance is ridiculous.

JR

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There is confort in pat answers

visionary said:

There is confort in pat answers

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Last time I asked Pat, he did not answer.

People, try to smile, we all won the lotto and will live forever in a Glorious New Earth and Jerusalem.

JR

Daniel Gregg said:

but it does say days before night: "three days and three nights"

1 Samuel 30:17 And David smote them from the twilight even unto the evening of THEIR next day: and there escaped not a man of them, save four hundred young men, who rode upon camels and fled.

When was the SERVANT revived? Just before dawn.

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SABER TRUTH TIGER
Where do the Scriptures say the servant was revived just before dawn? That could very well be the case, but where does the Bible make that claim? Furthermore, what translation renders it as THEIR next day? There are over fifty translations of this account at Bible Gateway and none of them render anything like "unto the evening of THEIR next day". See the various translation of I Samuel 30:17:


Here is the text from I Samuel 30 in the KJV:

10 But David pursued, he and four hundred men: for two hundred abode behind, which were so faint that they could not go over the brook Besor.
11 And they found an Egyptian in the field, and brought him to David, and gave him bread, and he did eat; and they made him drink water;
12 And they gave him a piece of a cake of figs, and two clusters of raisins: and when he had eaten, his spirit came again to him: for he had eaten no bread, nor drunk any water, three days and three nights.
13 And David said unto him, To whom belongest thou? and whence art thou? And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me because three days agone I fell sick.

One thing is clear. Whatever time of the day this happened, three days previously he had fallen sick. So, IF this was a Sunday morning or afternoon then "three days ago" would be sometime between Thursday sunrise and sunset when he fell sick.

The Scriptures also indicate he had not eaten or drank any water for three days and three nights. The day he was discovered would be the fourth day that his ordeal had begun and the three days and three nights that he had not eaten or drank any water would run from Thursday sunset to Sunday daytime. That means when the slave's master abandoned him he left his slave enough food and water to last another meal. Three days and three nights later he was revived.

There are some that teach that in Hebrew or Greek whenever the phrase "y days and y nights" occurs it means that the period of time mentioned always began in the daytime. However, I have never seen any proof of that. I have read elsewhere that it was a convention of the ancient languages to usually use day first, regardless of whether or not the event began in the daytime. I am not dogmatic on this, because it is something I read years ago and am unable to prove it. Maybe someone can provide us with some evidence that when a phrase like "y days and y nights" is used it is always the case that the event began on the period of daylight. I know of no grammatical rule that states this in the Christian Scriptures.

Here is a link to Bible Gateway that shows how the words "day" and "night" are used in the same verse in the KJV:


Here is another link to Bible Gateway where day and night are used in the NASB.


But as far as the slave being revived at dawn I see no scripture that indicates this. Maybe Daniel Gregg can show us.

Daniel Gregg said:

Opse de Sabbaton = late of Sabbaths
The result of the genitive is "Later of the Sabbaths", i.e. the second Sabbath.

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There was no "later" of the Sabbaths the weekend Jesus died. That's because Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath according to the inspired writer of the Hebrew text in Leviticus 23. Therefore, if Matthew 28:1 was written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, LATER of the Sabbaths is an erroneous translation. You seem hung up on the Sabbath being often written in the plural. However, better scholars than you have argued that the Greek word for Sabbaths can often mean only one day even if it is in the plural. There are also scholars who claim that "one of the Sabbaths" or "first of the Sabbaths" can also mean first day of the week. I will take their opinions of the Greek language over yours. You appear to be self taught in the Greek and Hebrew Scriptures so I don't hold your scholarship in as high esteem as much as I hold the recognized Hebrew scholars in esteem.

Daniel Gregg said:

Now the later of the Shabba&#817;t&#785;s, at the dawning on the first of the Shabba&#817;t&#785;s, Mirya&#817;m Ha-Magdalit and the other Mirya&#817;m came to look at the grave.

&#9658;28:1 later of the Shabba&#817;t&#785;s; the second of two Shabba&#817;t&#785;s in Passover week. The first annual Shabba&#817;t&#785; was the 15th of Aviv. The first weekly Shabba&#817;t&#785; followed it. Both Shabba&#817;t&#785;s are first, the 15th on account of being the first feast day Shabba&#817;t&#785;, and the following weekly Shabba&#817;t&#785; on account of the command to count seven Shabba&#817;t&#785;s between Passover and Sha&#817;v&#817;u&#8219;ot&#785;. See Lev23v15. first of the Shabba&#817;t&#785;s: &#1492;&#1463;&#1513;&#1473;&#1468;&#1463;&#1489;&#1468;&#1464;&#1514;&#1493;&#1465;&#1514; &#1488;&#1463;&#1495;&#1463;&#1514; = &#956;&#8055;&#945;&#957; &#963;&#945;&#946;&#946;&#8049;&#964;&#969;&#957; = a&#614;&#803;at&#785; ha-Shabba&#817;t&#785;ot&#785;. The phrase could mean one of the Shabba&#817;t&#785;s in an indefinite sense, but the Hebrew word one is also used for first, and it is evident from the instructions to count seven Shabba&#817;t&#785;s in Lev23v15 that first is meant.

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For those who may be interested the above text was decoded here:

And the output appears to read in the following manner:

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Now the later of the Shabba̱t̑s, at the dawning on the first of the Shabba̱t̑s, Mirya̱m Ha-Magdalit and the other Mirya̱m came to look at the grave.

►28:1 later of the Shabba̱t̑s; the second of two Shabba̱t̑s in Passover week. The first annual Shabba̱t̑ was the 15th of Aviv. The first weekly Shabba̱t̑ followed it. Both Shabba̱t̑s are first, the 15th on account of being the first feast day Shabba̱t̑, and the following weekly Shabba̱t̑ on account of the command to count seven Shabba̱t̑s between Passover and Sha̱v̱u‛ot̑. See Lev23v15. first of the Shabba̱t̑s: הַשַּׁבָּתוֹת אַחַת = μίαν σαββάτων = aɦ̣at̑ ha-Shabba̱t̑ot̑. The phrase could mean one of the Shabba̱t̑s in an indefinite sense, but the Hebrew word one is also used for first, and it is evident from the instructions to count seven Shabba̱t̑s in Lev23v15 that first is meant.
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Just thought this information might be helpful in light of the fact that some older threads that come back up have the problem with coding as seen in the OP and other posts herein. The problem is that the entire forum has undergone multiple upgrades since the time when some of the older threads were posted. Forum upgrades cannot always take language fonts and bring them over into the new software package, (properly displayed), because there are several different versions for coding language fonts. In other words it wasn't the fault of the forum software upgrade but simply a different style of coding which therefore left the old version in its numerical format on the page, like what is seen in the OP now, long after the forum upgrades.

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PS: I put the following into my own converter:

οψε δε σαββατων τη επιφωσκουση εις μιαν σαββατων...

And the following came out:

but late in the [weekly] Shabbat, in the dawning into the first [half] of the Shabbat...

Converter parameters:
1) the daily Shabbat hour is singular.
2) the weekly day of the Shabbat is plural because every hour of that day is a mini Shabbat hour.
3) the first half of the weekly Shabbat is the six hours of evening time.
4) the second half of the weekly Shabbat is the six hours of morning time.