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Adam, Eve and Noah’s Ark

FaithT

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Today I watched a video from CMI where this man, engineer and geologist Tas Walker was discussing how 80 whale fossils were found buried in a desert in Chile and how marine fossils have been found in other deserts as well as mountaintops. It got me thinking about our thread about theistic evolution. Question: I think I know the answer but I’m just making sure…..I know Catholics are free to believe in theistic evolution and a regional flood but is it permissible for Catholics to believe that man came from the ground, forming Adam and Eve literally from Adams rib? And is it permissible for Catholics to believe in a global Flood rather than a regional one?
 

chevyontheriver

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Today I watched a video from CMI where this man, engineer and geologist Tas Walker was discussing how 80 whale fossils were found buried in a desert in Chile and how marine fossils have been found in other deserts as well as mountaintops. It got me thinking about our thread about theistic evolution. Question: I think I know the answer but I’m just making sure…..I know Catholics are free to believe in theistic evolution and a regional flood but is it permissible for Catholics to believe that man came from the ground, forming Adam and Eve literally from Adams rib? And is it permissible for Catholics to believe in a global Flood rather than a regional one?
Yes, it is permissible for a Catholic to believe all that. It is also permissible for a Catholic to believe in a flat earth. I can tell them they are scientifically wrong. I cannot tell them they are theologically wrong. The theology just isn't specific enough to force a scientific conclusion via theology. There are some gray areas in theology that we have to leave open. Others that are cut and dried. The challenge is to keep the cut and dried cut and dried and not to misconstrue the gray areas to be cut and dried. One thinks Catholicism has an answer for everything. Only some things.
 
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chevyontheriver

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FaithT

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There are also whale fossils in the Sahara desert. I think it's the coolest thing. It does not follow that the whales there all died as a result of a flood.
How do you think they got there?
 
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FaithT

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Yes, it is permissible for a Catholic to believe all that. It is also permissible for a Catholic to believe in a flat earth. I can tell them they are scientifically wrong. I cannot tell them they are theologically wrong. The theology just isn't specific enough to force a scientific conclusion via theology. There are some gray areas in theology that we have to leave open. Others that are cut and dried. The challenge is to keep the cut and dried cut and dried and not to misconstrue the gray areas to be cut and dried. One thinks Catholicism has an answer for everything. Only some things.
I’m waffling again. Our Sunday homily, that I watched online was boring. The LCMS service, part of which I also watched online was really good. Sigh.
 
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chevyontheriver

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How do you think they got there?
The elevation in that area of the Sahara isn't extreme. Sea levels change. You COULD stretch that out as evidence of a flood I suppose. I thinj that is a real stretch though. Where I am is elevation 1000 feet but there are many strata of fossils. AND there is an area that has a salt creek flowing out of it. The last dregs of the great inland ocean that covered this area in the Ordovician. But then there are mammalian fossils (camels, mammoths, and the like) in a higher strata a hundred miles north, preserved by volcanic ash. Point is these are two very different times. Two very different sets of very exclusive fossils. No evidence the mammoths drown. The ash got 'em. None of this is a theological conclusion.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I’m waffling again. Our Sunday homily, that I watched online was boring. The LCMS service, part of which I also watched online was really good. Sigh.
In my diocese they lifted the dispensation for staying home due to Covid a year or so ago. If someone is sick or at high risk they can of course stay home. Otherwise they are expected to show up. My wife WAS sick so she stayed home and watched on TV. The homily was decent. Then I went in person and the other priest was there. Also decent. Somewhat different but the same Gospel related main point that we have no business complaining about someone who lives a life of dissipation and then comes to faith on their deathbed.
 
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mourningdove~

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I’m waffling again. Our Sunday homily, that I watched online was boring. The LCMS service, part of which I also watched online was really good. Sigh.

The homilies I hear in the local parishes in my area are generally short and very 'average'.
So I supplement my Catholic experience by listening to homilies and teachings via the internet.

I recently discovered that Msgr. Charles Pope has a YouTube Channel.
He posts a Sunday homily every weekend. (I personally like his style!)


Many folks like Bishop Robert Barron.
He has a YouTube channel with Sunday homilies also ...


And EWTN posts the daily/Sunday Mass readings and homilies online ...

... just a few ideas for you!

:blush:
 
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FaithT

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The homilies I hear in the local parishes in my area are generally short and very 'average'.
So I supplement my Catholic experience by listening to homilies and teachings via the internet.

I recently discovered that Msgr. Charles Pope has a YouTube Channel.
He posts a Sunday homily every weekend. (I personally like his style!)


Many folks like Bishop Robert Barron.
He has a YouTube channel with Sunday homilies also ...


And EWTN posts the daily/Sunday Mass readings and homilies online ...

... just a few ideas for you!

:blush:
Thank you very much!
The homilies I hear in the local parishes in my area are generally short and very 'average'.
So I supplement my Catholic experience by listening to homilies and teachings via the internet.

I recently discovered that Msgr. Charles Pope has a YouTube Channel.
He posts a Sunday homily every weekend. (I personally like his style!)


Many folks like Bishop Robert Barron.
He has a YouTube channel with Sunday homilies also ...


And EWTN posts the daily/Sunday Mass readings and homilies online ...

... just a few ideas for you!

:blush:
I like short homilies, but ones that I can apply to my life, as well. Ones I can relate to rather than simply a history lesson.
 
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FaithT

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The homilies I hear in the local parishes in my area are generally short and very 'average'.
So I supplement my Catholic experience by listening to homilies and teachings via the internet.

I recently discovered that Msgr. Charles Pope has a YouTube Channel.
He posts a Sunday homily every weekend. (I personally like his style!)


Many folks like Bishop Robert Barron.
He has a YouTube channel with Sunday homilies also ...


And EWTN posts the daily/Sunday Mass readings and homilies online ...

... just a few ideas for you!

:blush:
Now are these new homilies every week or reruns?
 
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FaithT

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In my diocese they lifted the dispensation for staying home due to Covid a year or so ago. If someone is sick or at high risk they can of course stay home. Otherwise they are expected to show up. My wife WAS sick so she stayed home and watched on TV. The homily was decent. Then I went in person and the other priest was there. Also decent. Somewhat different but the same Gospel related main point that we have no business complaining about someone who lives a life of dissipation and then comes to faith on their deathbed.
i was getting over an intestinal bug last week.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The homilies I hear in the local parishes in my area are generally short and very 'average'.
So I supplement my Catholic experience by listening to homilies and teachings via the internet.

I recently discovered that Msgr. Charles Pope has a YouTube Channel.
He posts a Sunday homily every weekend. (I personally like his style!)


Many folks like Bishop Robert Barron.
He has a YouTube channel with Sunday homilies also ...


And EWTN posts the daily/Sunday Mass readings and homilies online ...

... just a few ideas for you!

:blush:
Nice. But preparing by reading the readings beforehand also helps quite a bit. Lectio Divina style gets you prepared. And once in a while I get the commentaries out for some real study. Investing beforehand, and listening to some other homilies is a good thing.
 
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chevyontheriver

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i was getting over a intestinal bug last week.
That's OK. I was just explaining how I heard the slightly different homilies of both priests at my parish last week.

I know that a priest's homily can evolve from the first mass to the last mass. I've been told that by a priest.
 
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Wolseley

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How do you think they got there?
Well, I'm no believer in evolution; I'm a catastrophist. I think there was a horrible global disaster millennia ago that gave rise to the Flood accounts. (Virtually every culture on the planet, both past and present, have some version of the Flood story, by the way.)

I think that Earth experienced either a collision or a near-miss with some astral body: a comet, a meteor, a chunk of an exploded star, something. Whatever it was, it was powerful enough to nearly wipe out just about everything on the planet, and to cause geological structures that we see to this very day, even though the cause of those structures has been misinterpreted by mainstream scientists.

When this astral body went past (or collided) with Earth, it wrenched the planet around with such force that it's previous 90° axial tilt was knocked over to the current 23.44° that it is now. It's not hard to imagine that a blow of such force would certainly dislodge massive amounts of water, as the oceans sloshed out of their basins, flowed across continents, and emptied back into basins on the other side. And, naturally, it stands to reason that such water displacement would leave behind a lot of residue in places where you'd least expect to find it, such as marine sediment found at the top of Mt. Everest----or whale skeletons in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

Several American Indian tribes have ancestral histories that tell of a "star that fell from the sky" and caused horrible disaster on Earth; the few survivors that escaped, did so by fleeing into deep caves. When the rumbling stopped, it took them many days to dig back out, and when they did, they found themselves on the side of a mountain surrounded by water. They managed to survive by eating animals that had been sealed up in the cave with them, and when the water gradually subsided, it left salt deposits over everything for a long time. It was touch and go after this Flood(?) disaster, because at first, they couldn't grow anything due to the salt.

Another tidbit for your consideration is the fact that throughout the course of recorded human history, comets have always been symbols of dread and doom: if you see one, you can be sure it portends catastrophe. I believe the reason why is that our distant ancestors saw what was coming for weeks before the astral body we're talking about finally made contact with our planet; and as a result, we all have a deeply-ingrained global race memory of that awful event. It certainly explains why most people before the 20th century viewed comets and meteors with a combination of atavistic dread and fear.

You are, of course, under no compulsion whatsoever to agree with me on all this; but for me, it neatly explains not only the Flood accounts, but a whole lot of other things as well. :)
 
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chevyontheriver

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Well, I'm no believer in evolution; I'm a catastrophist. I think there was a horrible global disaster millennia ago that gave rise to the Flood accounts. (Virtually every culture on the planet, both past and present, have some version of the Flood story, by the way.)

I think that Earth experienced either a collision or a near-miss with some astral body: a comet, a meteor, a chunk of an exploded star, something. Whatever it was, it was powerful enough to nearly wipe out just about everything on the planet, and to cause geological structures that we see to this very day, even though the cause of those structures has been misinterpreted by mainstream scientists.

When this astral body went past (or collided) with Earth, it wrenched the planet around with such force that it's previous 90° axial tilt was knocked over to the current 23.44° that it is now. It's not hard to imagine that a blow of such force would certainly dislodge massive amounts of water, as the oceans sloshed out of their basins, flowed across continents, and emptied back into basins on the other side. And, naturally, it stands to reason that such water displacement would leave behind a lot of residue in places where you'd least expect to find it, such as marine sediment found at the top of Mt. Everest----or whale skeletons in the middle of the Sahara Desert.

Several American Indian tribes have ancestral histories that tell of a "star that fell from the sky" and caused horrible disaster on Earth; the few survivors that escaped, did so by fleeing into deep caves. When the rumbling stopped, it took them many days to dig back out, and when they did, they found themselves on the side of a mountain surrounded by water. They managed to survive by eating animals that had been sealed up in the cave with them, and when the water gradually subsided, it left salt deposits over everything for a long time. It was touch and go after this Flood(?) disaster, because at first, they couldn't grow anything due to the salt.

Another tidbit for your consideration is the fact that throughout the course of recorded human history, comets have always been symbols of dread and doom: if you see one, you can be sure it portends catastrophe. I believe the reason why is that our distant ancestors saw what was coming for weeks before the astral body we're talking about finally made contact with our planet; and as a result, we all have a deeply-ingrained global race memory of that awful event. It certainly explains why most people before the 20th century viewed comets and meteors with a combination of atavistic dread and fear.

You are, of course, under no compulsion whatsoever to agree with me on all this; but for me, it neatly explains not only the Flood accounts, but a whole lot of other things as well. :)
A catastrophe approach does make some sense. Over time lots of catastrophes. It explains the terminal Mesozoic extinctions admirably. And what you mentioned above. Big asteroid and all the dinosaurs go extinct.

The other thing is just long slow processes. That is what explains geomagnetic reversals as are found along the middle of the Atlantic ocean, and the sea floor spreading that the reversals record. After a long time the continents drift. And mountains get lifted, and eroded. Et cetera.
 
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mourningdove~

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Now are these new homilies every week or reruns?
The homilies posted by Msgr. Pope and Bishop Barron are not done in a church setting.
(So they are not recordings of their homilies done during Mass.)
They are homilies prepared for posting online.
They are new every weekend, corresponding to the current Sunday reading.

EWTN broadcasts a live Mass 7 days a week.
The readings and homilies from their Masses are recorded and posted online for later viewing.

I like short homilies, but ones that I can apply to my life, as well. Ones I can relate to rather than simply a history lesson.

Msgr. Pope's homilies average around 20 minutes. I find them to be very 'relatable'.
:blush:
 
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Diamond72

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is it permissible for Catholics to believe that man came from the ground, forming Adam and Eve literally from Adams rib?
From the ground would be called elements today. The elements were created in a star and there are verses in the Bible that says we came from the stars. DNA for cloning can be obtained from various sources, including bone marrow. Bone marrow is a rich source of cells, particularly stem cells, which contain the genetic material necessary for cloning. So clearly science tells us that Eve could have come from Adams rib. "bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh" Genesis 2:23. Science would consider them to be brother and sister that shared the same mother. There are up to 19 different Eves, but Eve in the Bible was the only one that her male and female common ancestor lived at the same time as she did.

Of course we have science Male & Female that we read about in Genesis chapter one. They were told to subdue the whole earth. Then we have Bible Adam and Eve. A man and a women that were given the Garden in Eden. That is the biodiverse ecology that they were a part of. We can read about all the plants and animals in Eden in our Bible. Science called them cultivated or domesticated. This was the beginning of civilization.

There are experts that teach Botany at the universities in Jerusalem that have a PhD. They can tell you all about the plants that we find in the middle east and the difference between man as a food gather and a food producer. They usually do not write books but they are published in peer reviewed science journals. So there is just no conflict at all between science and the Bible. Only a problem with man made traditions.

In Genesis, God promises Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars (Genesis 15:5). That does not say we come from the stars as science says. But there is a connection established with us and the stars.
 
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FaithT

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From the ground would be called elements today. The elements were created in a star and there are verses in the Bible that says we came from the stars. DNA for cloning can be obtained from various sources, including bone marrow. Bone marrow is a rich source of cells, particularly stem cells, which contain the genetic material necessary for cloning. So clearly science tells us that Eve could have come from Adams rib. "bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh" Genesis 2:23. Science would consider them to be brother and sister that shared the same mother. There are up to 19 different Eves, but Eve in the Bible was the only one that her male and female common ancestor lived at the same time as she did.

Of course we have science Male & Female that we read about in Genesis chapter one. They were told to subdue the whole earth. Then we have Bible Adam and Eve. A man and a women that were given the Garden in Eden. That is the biodiverse ecology that they were a part of. We can read about all the plants and animals in Eden in our Bible. Science called them cultivated or domesticated. This was the beginning of civilization.

There are experts that teach Botany at the universities in Jerusalem that have a PhD. They can tell you all about the plants that we find in the middle east and the difference between man as a food gather and a food producer. They usually do not write books but they are published in peer reviewed science journals. So there is just no conflict at all between science and the Bible. Only a problem with man made traditions.

In Genesis, God promises Abraham that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars (Genesis 15:5). That does not say we come from the stars as science says. But there is a connection established with us and the stars.
I’m a little bit confused. In your first paragraph you said that “there are verses in the Bible that says we came from the stars.”
In your last paragraph you write “ that does not say we come from the stars as science says. But there is a connection established with us and the stars.”
Are people made from stardust like science tells us?
 
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Diamond72

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I’m a little bit confused. In your first paragraph you said that “there are verses in the Bible that says we came from the stars.”
In your last paragraph you write “ that does not say we come from the stars as science says. But there is a connection established with us and the stars.”
Are people made from stardust like science tells us?
By that, I mean the verse I quoted does not say we come from stars, but there are verses that could be interpreted that we do come from stars. The Bible uses the word "dust" and science tells us that "dust" comes from stars. The elements are forged in the furnace of a star.
 
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