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Quecumque vult (Whoever wishes) - also called the Athanasian Creed.

Xeno.of.athens

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The oldest surviving manuscripts of the Athanasian Creed date from the late 8th century.

Quicunque vult These are the initial words of the symbol known as the Athanasian Creed. The real composer of this ancient formulary being unknown, its origin is a matter of conjecture. A cursory glance at its history in ancient and modern times is all that can be here offered. It probably had its origin in the Gallican Church. It was first used in that Church. Gallican councils and bishops have always treated it with especial deference. Churches which received the Gallican Psalter received with it this "expositio fidei." The oldest known translation into the vernacular was Gallican, as prescribed by Hincmar of Rheims to his priests. The first writers who cite its words were Avitus of Vienne and Caesarius of Aries; the oldest commentator upon its text was Venantius Fortunatus, bishop of Poitiers; and MSS. were nowhere so abundant or so ancient as in Gaul (Waterland).

In its text we find this:
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son. [Athanasian Creed]​
Which is interesting to me. It, as would be expected I guess, reflects the filioque clause from the western form of the Nicene creed.

A Catholic reading, in conformity with the council of Florence, would interpret "and the Son" as meaning "through the Son". Thus in modern English one might edit the form shown above - which is from the Christian Reformed Church - to read:
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father through the Son.
Would this be an acceptable "Western text" for Eastern Orthodox Christians to see in the western liturgy?
 

Xeno.of.athens

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My understanding it was originally written in Latin, not Greek, which is why the EO does not use it.
Latin is a good language, but I think it may have been written in Greek in France, And translated into Latin.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I can't see it being introduced as a regular creed for use in the everyday mass. It's quite long, and doesn't have the compactness of the Apostles Creed or the poetic language of the Nicene Creed.

It's very strong in affirming the Trinity. The Apostles Creed is an all round creed and the Nicene Creed emphasises the divinity of Christ.

It would appear to have been written in Latin.


A Latin document composed in the Western Church, the creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. Many authors have been suggested, but no definite conclusions have been reached. In 1940 the lost Excerpta of Vincent of Lérins (flourished 440) was discovered, and this work contains much of the language of the creed. Thus, either Vincent or an admirer of his has been considered the possible author.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I am thinking that since Quecumque Vult is very old indeed, from the 4th century or 5th century and it has the filioque in it why do some act as if the filioque is not a product of the ancient Church and is in some way 'heretical' with respect to the Holy Trinity? Clearly it is not heretical because it was accepted by the Church and by the Pope. Clearly this charge of heresy is an innovation.
 
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I am thinking that since Quecumque Vult is very old indeed, from the 4th century or 5th century and it has the filioque in it why do some act as if the filioque is not a product of the ancient Church and is in some way 'heretical' with respect to the Holy Trinity? Clearly it is not heretical because it was accepted by the Church and by the Pope. Clearly this charge of heresy is an innovation.
The EO does not accept the Filioque at all because it was later added on.
 
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Latin is a good language, but I think it may have been written in Greek in France, And translated into Latin.
It was my understanding it was originally written in Latin, so an Eastern Father couldn't have written it.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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The EO does not accept the Filioque at all because it was later added on.
That is historical fact, but it is not heresy, and the Roman patriarch does accept it so it is used in the western rites.
 
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That is historical fact, but it is not heresy, and the Roman patriarch does accept it so it is used in the wester rites.
I agree, it's not heresy. I accept what the RCC teaches.
 
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Bob Crowley

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In our tradition it is used once every year at the Feast of the Holy Spirit.
Without knowing much about your tradition, I suspect it's probably used then because of it's strong Trinitarian ethos.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Without knowing much about your tradition, I suspect it's probably used then because of it's strong Trinitarian ethos.
Confessional Lutheran; and yes, you are correct.
 
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The Liturgist

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My understanding it was originally written in Latin, not Greek, which is why the EO does not use it.

Actually there is a Greek version which lacks the filioque, which is the original version, and it is included in Greek copies of the Horologion (book of the daily services) and Russian Psalters.
 
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The Liturgist

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The oldest surviving manuscripts of the Athanasian Creed date from the late 8th century.

Quicunque vult These are the initial words of the symbol known as the Athanasian Creed. The real composer of this ancient formulary being unknown, its origin is a matter of conjecture. A cursory glance at its history in ancient and modern times is all that can be here offered. It probably had its origin in the Gallican Church. It was first used in that Church. Gallican councils and bishops have always treated it with especial deference. Churches which received the Gallican Psalter received with it this "expositio fidei." The oldest known translation into the vernacular was Gallican, as prescribed by Hincmar of Rheims to his priests. The first writers who cite its words were Avitus of Vienne and Caesarius of Aries; the oldest commentator upon its text was Venantius Fortunatus, bishop of Poitiers; and MSS. were nowhere so abundant or so ancient as in Gaul (Waterland).

In its text we find this:
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son. [Athanasian Creed]​
Which is interesting to me. It, as would be expected I guess, reflects the filioque clause from the western form of the Nicene creed.

A Catholic reading, in conformity with the council of Florence, would interpret "and the Son" as meaning "through the Son". Thus in modern English one might edit the form shown above - which is from the Christian Reformed Church - to read:
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father through the Son.
Would this be an acceptable "Western text" for Eastern Orthodox Christians to see in the western liturgy?

We already have a version which is older than the modified version presently in use in the Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran churches. The correct version of Quincunque Vult, or the Athanasian Creed, which by the way is derived from Homily XXI by St. Gregrory the Theologian, a panygeric for St. Athanasius (in which he correctly refers to Athanasius as “the Pillar of Orthodoxy” and remarks that his name has become synonymous with virtue), and one of the shorter writings against Arianism by St. Athanasius.

The following English translation is from A Psalter for Prayer, published by Holy Trinity Monastery of the autonomous Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, in Jordanville, New York:

WHOSOEVER will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Spirit uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Spirit Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity, to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord; so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion, to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made, nor created, but begotten. Likewise also the Holy Spirit is of the Father, neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater, or less than another; but the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Concerning Christ

FURTHERMORE, it is necessary to everlasting salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the ages, and Man, of the Substance of His Mother, born in the world; perfect God, and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting; equal to the Father, as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father, as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ; one; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.
 
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The Liturgist

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In our tradition it is used once every year at the Feast of the Holy Spirit.

You mean on Pentecost or Whitsunday as it is called by Anglicans? Also out of curiosity do you have Trinity Sunday, or is that an Anglican and Roman thing? The Orthodox have All Saints Day on the Sunday following Whitsunday, so for us Pentecost is Trinity Sunday, but I have absolutely no problem with the Western system, wherein there is a day dedicated to the Trinity, especially since in so many denominations other than yours the doctrine of the Trinity is insufficiently emphasized and not well understood by the laity. In the mainline Protestant denomination I grew up in, I do not recall hearing one sermon on the nature of the Trinity. However perhaps I learned it at the LCMS parochial school, because I knew it well enough to instinctively answer correctly when asked unexpectedly a series of questions on the doctrine in a social setting in my first or second year in college (I think I was 19).
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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You mean on Pentecost or Whitsunday as it is called by Anglicans? Also out of curiosity do you have Trinity Sunday, or is that an Anglican and Roman thing? The Orthodox have All Saints Day on the Sunday following Whitsunday, so for us Pentecost is Trinity Sunday, but I have absolutely no problem with the Western system, wherein there is a day dedicated to the Trinity, especially since in so many denominations other than yours the doctrine of the Trinity is insufficiently emphasized and not well understood by the laity. In the mainline Protestant denomination I grew up in, I do not recall hearing one sermon on the nature of the Trinity. However perhaps I learned it at the LCMS parochial school, because I knew it well enough to instinctively answer correctly when asked unexpectedly a series of questions on the doctrine in a social setting in my first or second year in college (I think I was 19).
Actually, we mark Penticost with red paraments, the Feast of the Holy Trinity, we celebrate the following Sunday with white paraments. Two weeks, two feasts!!
 
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Actually there is a Greek version which lacks the filioque, which is the original version, and it is included in Greek copies of the Horologion (book of the daily services) and Russian Psalters.
Thanks for the info! :)
 
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That is historical fact, but it is not heresy, and the Roman patriarch does accept it so it is used in the wester rites.

Perhaps not, but adding it was something Rome was, at a minimum, not allowed to do according to the canons of the Council of Ephesus, which prohibit modifying the Nicene Creed and composing new creeds.

For this reason also I don’t believe that Quincunque Vult and the baptismal confession known as the Apostles’ Creed should be called creeds at all. They are clearly confessional canticles, and just as the Nicene Creed is sung in both the Tridentine Mass (for example, in Gregorian chant) and the divine liturgies of the Eastern churches, they are also clearly to be sung.

That said the use of them at specific parts of the Divine Office is not something I find objectionable. However, I am opposed to their use as a substitute for the Nicene Creed at mass. I think at all services, which are typically a combination of one or more hours such as Vespers and Compline from the Divine Office (or “the Liturgy of the Hours” as it is called in the Novus Ordo Missae) and/or the Divine Liturgy or Mass, the Nicene Creed should be heard at least once. And any additional creedal hymns and canticles that are sung amount to bonus points.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Perhaps not, but adding it was something Rome was, at a minimum, not allowed to do according to the canons of the Council of Ephesus, which prohibit modifying the Nicene Creed and composing new creeds.
Quecumque Vult originated around (perhaps as early as 415 AD) at the time of Ephesus (431 AD) or perhaps before.
For this reason also I don’t believe that Quincunque Vult and the baptismal confession known as the Apostles’ Creed should be called creeds at all. They are clearly confessional canticles, and just as the Nicene Creed is sung in both the Tridentine Mass (for example, in Gregorian chant) and the divine liturgies of the Eastern churches, they are also clearly to be sung.
But Catholics do call both Quecumque Vult and the Apostles Creed creeds. And for good reasons.
That said the use of them at specific parts of the Divine Office is not something I find objectionable. However, I am opposed to their use as a substitute for the Nicene Creed at mass. I think at all services, which are typically a combination of one or more hours such as Vespers and Compline from the Divine Office (or “the Liturgy of the Hours” as it is called in the Novus Ordo Missae) and/or the Divine Liturgy or Mass, the Nicene Creed should be heard at least once. And any additional creedal hymns and canticles that are sung amount to bonus points.
In the mass, in the liturgy, Quecumque vult is not used, but it can be used on Trinity Sunday. In the middle ages, in English, the Divine Office was called "the hours" and the books that lay out the prayers were called "Book of hours" which many literate women had and read.
 
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I've only seen the Athanasian creed (minus the filioque) used in the EO as a teaching tool when someone is really confused about trinitarian theology.

The problem with it being written in the 4th century is that has some phrasing very specific that would have only come out after later ecumenical councils:

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother— existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity. Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ. He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity. He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures. For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.​

These appear to me as being of 6-7th century origin because these are comments against Nestorianism and IMHO even monothelitism.
 
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