Carmelites 'no longer recognize' Fort Worth bishop's authority

Michie · Aug 20, 2023

The nuns at a Carmelite monastery in Arlington, Texas, announced Friday that they “no longer recognize the authority of” Bishop Michael Olson of Fort Worth, an act that could see Olson declare the nuns in schism.

“[W]e hereby state that, in conscience, we no longer recognize the authority of, and can have no further relations with, the current Bishop of Fort Worth or his officials, and forbid him or any of his officials or representatives to enter our monastery property or to have any contact or relations with the monastery or any of its nuns or novices,” an Aug. 18 statement on the sisters’ website stated.

Sources close to the monastery confirmed the authenticity of the statement to The Pillar Friday afternoon.

Continued below.

Carmelites 'no longer recognize' Fort Worth bishop's authority

An Arlington, Texas, monastery of nuns has disavowed Bishop Michael Olson, with support from Archbishop Carlo Vigano

www.pillarcatholic.com

chevyontheriver · Aug 20, 2023

Michie said:
The nuns at a Carmelite monastery in Arlington, Texas, announced Friday that they “no longer recognize the authority of” Bishop Michael Olson of Fort Worth, an act that could see Olson declare the nuns in schism.

“[W]e hereby state that, in conscience, we no longer recognize the authority of, and can have no further relations with, the current Bishop of Fort Worth or his officials, and forbid him or any of his officials or representatives to enter our monastery property or to have any contact or relations with the monastery or any of its nuns or novices,” an Aug. 18 statement on the sisters’ website stated.

Sources close to the monastery confirmed the authenticity of the statement to The Pillar Friday afternoon.

Continued below.

Carmelites 'no longer recognize' Fort Worth bishop's authority

An Arlington, Texas, monastery of nuns has disavowed Bishop Michael Olson, with support from Archbishop Carlo Vigano

www.pillarcatholic.com

That's another mistake in this saga of mistakes on both sides. They should never have said they didn't recognize the authority of the bishop. At this point they will be suppressed, and they brought that upon themselves. They should have made no statement at all. They could have locked the bishop out of their facility ever so mysteriously. But now they put themselves in schism. Stupid. What sympathies I had for them are slowly evaporating. Maybe not so slowly.

Michie · Aug 21, 2023

After unexpected new letter, nuns may face excommunication

Bishop Michael F. Olson of Fort Worth said Aug. 19 that a community of Carmelites in his diocese, and their prioress in particular, may have incurred excommunication after posting a letter online Aug. 18 saying their community no longer recognizes his authority, claiming that he has interfered...

www.oursundayvisitor.com

chevyontheriver · Aug 21, 2023

Michie said:
After unexpected new letter, nuns may face excommunication

Bishop Michael F. Olson of Fort Worth said Aug. 19 that a community of Carmelites in his diocese, and their prioress in particular, may have incurred excommunication after posting a letter online Aug. 18 saying their community no longer recognizes his authority, claiming that he has interfered...

www.oursundayvisitor.com

At this point the only expected thing in this long run of off the wall events.

RileyG · Aug 21, 2023

The whole ordeal is just so sad. No one wins here.

Michie · Aug 24, 2023

Texas Carmelite nuns ‘recognize’ Bishop Olson, reject ‘unauthorized’ authority

As a dispute in the Fort Worth diocese continues, a Vatican visitation seems likely.

www.pillarcatholic.com

chevyontheriver · Aug 24, 2023

Michie said:
Texas Carmelite nuns ‘recognize’ Bishop Olson, reject ‘unauthorized’ authority

As a dispute in the Fort Worth diocese continues, a Vatican visitation seems likely.

www.pillarcatholic.com

Is that a distinction without a difference?

These nuns are toast. Even if the bishop is dead wrong.

Michie · Aug 25, 2023

Texas Carmelites insist on Church unity, not excommunication

Cloistered Carmelites in Arlington, Texas, insisted on their continued communion with the Catholic Church Aug. 23 in a statement from their civil attorney, following an Aug. 19 statement from Bishop Michael F. Olson of Fort Worth saying the nuns may have incurred excommunication.

www.oursundayvisitor.com

boughtwithaprice · Aug 25, 2023

These nuns committed a schismatic act which invokes Latae sententiae excommunication

It appears that they don’t understand the gravity of their act and think they can just walk the statement back. Umm, no

Reinstatement would require full repentance and full submission in humble obedience to the Bishop and hope for his mercy. Short of that, they are not Catholic anymore and are outside the Church.
That is a scary place to be, if one realizes the full gravity of their state. I was Latae Sententiae excommunicated for failing to submit to Church teaching on marriage and thought I knew better.
I was not able to receive communion until I went through proper annulment and had to convince my non-Catholic wife to annul one of her previous marriages. I thought no big deal, just wait for the process to complete and I can go back to the Church. Wrong
The whole thing took almost seven years, and I did not realize the precarious position that I was in until the process was complete and I was restored to the Church. People said that I could just go to communion and no one would know, but I was prevented by conscience. I would know and God knows that I would have received communion unworthily. That would have added condemnation upon my soul.
After the two annulments for myself and my current wife, my priest asked the Bishop for a Radical Sanation of my current marriage to allow me to receive communion, but the caveat is that a radically sanated marriage can never be annulled and would truly be till death do us part.
It was strange, but when I completed the process and submitted to the full political and teaching authority of the Church, the sin that so easily beset me was gone. It wasn’t that I just made a resolution to stop sinful habits, but when I went to confession and received Our Lord in the Eucharist, grace came upon me and I no longer wanted what I used to think of as pleasurable and tempting. The grace of God does indeed flow through His Church and through the Sacraments
I would never jeopardize that again

These nuns may feel wronged and their actions are justified, but they are influenced by a demon to raise their hand against God’s anointed. I say that from experience and I pray for the mercy of God for them to realize what they are doing so that they can repent. As it is now, Father forgive them because they don’t know what they are doing

chevyontheriver · Aug 26, 2023

boughtwithaprice said:
These nuns committed a schismatic act which invokes Latae sententiae excommunication

I'm not so sure. There is a different perspective on that I saw on The Pillar. Basically the 'latae sententiae' excommunications aren't for everything. They rejected the 'authority' of the bishop. They may not have broken 'communion' with the bishop.

boughtwithaprice said:
It appears that they don’t understand the gravity of their act and think they can just walk the statement back. Umm, no

It does appear they don't grasp the gravity of it all. Maybe, just maybe, a bit too much Mary Jane (medical or otherwise) in the halls.

boughtwithaprice said:
Reinstatement would require full repentance and full submission in humble obedience to the Bishop and hope for his mercy. Short of that, they are not Catholic anymore and are outside the Church.

The bishop didn't even go so far as to declare they were excommunicated. I suspect he could excommunicate them. Before their attempt to walk it all back I expected he would excommunicate them. Now I don't know.

boughtwithaprice said:
That is a scary place to be, if one realizes the full gravity of their state. I was Latae Sententiae excommunicated for failing to submit to Church teaching on marriage and thought I knew better.

They are in a bad place. One way or another they are going to get stomped on hard. I expect something like the dissolution of their monastery. So far everything about this case has been strange though, and from both sides.

boughtwithaprice · Aug 27, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
I'm not so sure. There is a different perspective on that I saw on The Pillar. Basically the 'latae sententiae' excommunications aren't for everything. They rejected the 'authority' of the bishop. They may not have broken 'communion' with the bishop.

It does appear they don't grasp the gravity of it all. Maybe, just maybe, a bit too much Mary Jane (medical or otherwise) in the halls.

The bishop didn't even go so far as to declare they were excommunicated. I suspect he could excommunicate them. Before their attempt to walk it all back I expected he would excommunicate them. Now I don't know.

They are in a bad place. One way or another they are going to get stomped on hard. I expect something like the dissolution of their monastery. So far everything about this case has been strange though, and from both sides.

Thank you for your perspective, as I am not the Bishop or Pope, I only have my understanding.
From what I have read, religious communities are under holy obedience, and to deny the authority of a Bishop is a grave matter.
I am not sure what it would mean to deny authority yet retain communion. Latae Sententiae excommunications do not require a formal declaration of the Bishop, but are incurred merely by the act performed.
Peter has two keys of the kingdom of Heaven. One represents his teaching authority and the other represents his political authority. To deny his teaching authority is heresy. To deny his political authority is schism. Both types of rebellion are extremely grave and would incur the Latae Sententiae excommunication.
This is what Marcel Levebre did when he consecrated Bishops without a Papal mandate. He rejected John Paul II’s authority and took matters into his own hands so to speak. No matter how justified he felt in his actions, it was a schismatic act, and since JohnPaul II was the vicar of Christ, it was as not just a rejection of his authority but divine authority as well.
When I look at these things I am moved to sorrow as to agony. It’s just one of those things you just don’t do. We as Catholics are called to be in submission to the Church. When we deny authority, we are no longer followers of Christ but sit in judgement of His commands
I agree that I do not have the authority to declare the nuns nor the SSPX in schism and that is the prerogative of the Bishop or the Pope. It is up to the Bishop or Pope Francis to heal the relationship. Three Popes have stated that the SSPX have no canonical standing in the Church
It remains to be seen what will happen to these Nuns
It matters little if their sacraments are valid but illicit or not, I cannot attend their services or join their schism. These Nuns may be under the influence of cannabis or other drugs as you suggest, but they certainly are under demonic influence. A Christian does not lift his or her hand against God’s anointed; deceiving spirits, aka demons, play with our emotions to get us to do it.
I pray for Almighty God to give his grace, and Blessed Mary ever Virgin, and all the angels and saints to pray for the Bishop to receive grace to handle the matter that gives glory to God and His Church, and we all learn something from it.

chevyontheriver · Aug 27, 2023

boughtwithaprice said:
Thank you for your perspective, as I am not the Bishop or Pope, I only have my understanding.
From what I have read, religious communities are under holy obedience, and to deny the authority of a Bishop is a grave matter.

They are under the authority of their superiors who are not necessarily the local bishops. This is complicated because the Vatican has approved the local bishop in some degree as an extraordinary authority over them. He would otherwise have limited or even no authority over them.

boughtwithaprice said:
I am not sure what it would mean to deny authority yet retain communion.

I’m not sure either. But on the other hand you and I are in communion but I have zero authority over you.

boughtwithaprice said:
Latae Sententiae excommunications do not require a formal declaration of the Bishop, but are incurred merely by the act performed.

Which is why they are muddy. Not everybody knows what’s up.

boughtwithaprice said:
When I look at these things I am moved to sorrow as to agony. It’s just one of those things you just don’t do. We as Catholics are called to be in submission to the Church. When we deny authority, we are no longer followers of Christ but sit in judgement of His commands

I agree.

boughtwithaprice said:
I agree that I do not have the authority to declare the nuns nor the SSPX in schism and that is the prerogative of the Bishop or the Pope. It is up to the Bishop or Pope Francis to heal the relationship. Three Popes have stated that the SSPX have no canonical standing in the Church

The SSPX is not currently technically in schism. It’s irregular but not actual schism at the moment.

boughtwithaprice said:
It remains to be seen what will happen to these Nuns
It matters little if their sacraments are valid but illicit or not, I cannot attend their services or join their schism. These Nuns may be under the influence of cannabis or other drugs as you suggest, but they certainly are under demonic influence. A Christian does not lift his or her hand against God’s anointed; deceiving spirits, aka demons, play with our emotions to get us to do it.
I pray for Almighty God to give his grace, and Blessed Mary ever Virgin, and all the angels and saints to pray for the Bishop to receive grace to handle the matter that gives glory to God and His Church, and we all learn something from it.

I would be slow to presume demons in charge of the nuns. Both sides are making a mess of this. Demons are celebrating it all but I wouldn’t say the demons have hold of them just yet.

boughtwithaprice · Aug 28, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
They are under the authority of their superiors who are not necessarily the local bishops. This is complicated because the Vatican has approved the local bishop in some degree as an extraordinary authority over them. He would otherwise have limited or even no authority over them.

I’m not sure either. But on the other hand you and I are in communion but I have zero authority over you.

Which is why they are muddy. Not everybody knows what’s up.

I agree.

The SSPX is not currently technically in schism. It’s irregular but not actual schism at the moment.

I would be slow to presume demons in charge of the nuns. Both sides are making a mess of this. Demons are celebrating it all but I wouldn’t say the demons have hold of them just yet.

boughtwithaprice · Aug 28, 2023

Demons do not have a hold of them, but they are certainly tempting them in the direction they are going. Anything that is not in line with God’s will is sin. Sin is of the devil.
There are grades of demonic involvement. At the beginning they play on our emotions to make rebellion feel better than obedience. A wise Christian does not follow his or her emotions, but has their flesh under the force of will by the use of reason.
It is when we give into our feelings that the demons gain a stronger foothold, beginning with oppression, then obsession, and if not checked, full possession.
It is precisely because the demons are involved that we resort to prayer and fasting in these situations. Demons are smarter than us and can use their intellect to justify rebellion, which is their specialty, although completely evil.

chevyontheriver · Aug 28, 2023

boughtwithaprice said:
Demons do not have a hold of them, but they are certainly tempting them in the direction they are going. Anything that is not in line with God’s will is sin. Sin is of the devil.
There are grades of demonic involvement. At the beginning they play on our emotions to make rebellion feel better than obedience. A wise Christian does not follow his or her emotions, but has their flesh under the force of will by the use of reason.
It is when we give into our feelings that the demons gain a stronger foothold, beginning with oppression, then obsession, and if not checked, full possession.
It is precisely because the demons are involved that we resort to prayer and fasting in these situations. Demons are smarter than us and can use their intellect to justify rebellion, which is their specialty, although completely evil.

There is plenty of room on all sides in this whole affair for demons to play.

Michie · Aug 29, 2023

Losing one’s head, Texas Carmelites v. Bishop Michael Olson, and is the Pope talking about you?

Carmelites 'no longer recognize' Fort Worth bishop's authority

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