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The evidence of small miracles ..

Which of these have you heard of/ know something about?

  • The changing statue of limpias

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The white doves at the feet of the pilgrim virgin

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The hospital verified inedia of Alexandrina da Costa.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The forensically verified bleeding statue of Cochabamba

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The filmed and prophesied stigmata of Katya rivas

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The continuous writings of Katya rivas in languages she didn’t understand!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The “ Slovakian” Lourdes.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The finding of Mary’s house at Ephesus.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The priests that survived the Hiroshima epicentre.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1

Mountainmike

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I’m fascinated by the evidence of miracles, going beyond the most famous.

. I’ve searched the world to collect books on them.
Many are old, for example the books on limpias are 1917-1920 era
The books on the white doves of the pilgrim virgin are 1949-50

I’m curious .. how many have even heard of these now? I just give few examples.

fill in the poll!
 
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Bob Crowley

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Without going into historic details I'm aware of bleeding hosts (https://www.tumblarhouse.com/blogs/news/recent-eucharistic-miracles-science); the Holy Fire at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem; Padre Pio's miracles; Mary at Fatima; incorrupt saints (including Padre Pio); stigmata; levitation of saints eg. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Joseph of Cupertino; the mystery surrounding the Shroud of Turin; Saint Januarius's liquefying blood; miraculous healings at Lourdes.

No doubt there are others, and any number of people could testify to coincidences that weren't coincidences.

I haven't heard of Limpias or the white doves of the pilgrim virgin.
 
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Mountainmike

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Without going into historic details I'm aware of bleeding hosts (https://www.tumblarhouse.com/blogs/news/recent-eucharistic-miracles-science); the Holy Fire at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem; Padre Pio's miracles; Mary at Fatima; incorrupt saints (including Padre Pio); stigmata; levitation of saints eg. St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross and St. Joseph of Cupertino; the mystery surrounding the Shroud of Turin; Saint Januarius's liquefying blood; miraculous healings at Lourdes.

No doubt there are others, and any number of people could testify to coincidences that weren't coincidences.

I haven't heard of Limpias or the white doves of the pilgrim virgin.
For Now please fill in the poll?
I deliberately went beyond the most important in my view - the Eucharistic miracles - miracle of sun ( the prophesy of it) - Lourdes healings etc,

If there is an appetite for it, I’ll explain others. But let us see who has heard of them?
 
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Mountainmike

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Oh wow…
I am surprised!
i will add none! ,

So which of them interests people?
I’ll give a précis of any you choose,

They ate all fascinating I’m their own right .

Many more to choose beyond that.
like how was it that the only unharmed survivors , not even radiation poisoning or hearing loss. near the epicentre of Hiroshima were Jesuit priests whose ministry focussed on the rosary! They walked away. Lived decades after.
 
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Michie

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Oh wow…
I am surprised!
i will add none! ,

So which of them interests people?
I’ll give a précis of any you choose,

They ate all fascinating I’m their own right .
I’m interested in the white dove and the continuous writings
 
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FaithT

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I’m fascinated by the evidence of miracles, going beyond the most famous.

. I’ve searched the world to collect books on them.
Many are old, for example the books on limpias are 1917-1920 era
The books on the white doves of the pilgrim virgin are 1949-50

I’m curious .. how many have even heard of these now? I just give few examples.

fill in the poll!
I haven’t heard of any them except POSSIBLY Katya Rives. Just tonight though I saw on 60 minutes a segment on the miracles of Lourdes and the Sister Bernadette who’s become the 70th verified miracle.
It was fascinating.
 
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JSRG

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like how was it that the only unharmed survivors , not even radiation poisoning or hearing loss. near the epicentre of Hiroshima were Jesuit priests whose ministry focussed on the rosary! They walked away. Lived decades after.
I remember looking into this in the past. While based on fact, many of the claims about the priests seem to have become very exaggerated in the telling. For example, they were not unharmed.

So that people know what is even being discussed, here is an account of the events that could be considered "moderate":
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/32445/the-miracle-of-hiroshima-–-jesuits-survived-the-atomic-bomb-thanks-to-the-rosary

"Four Jesuits were nearby the hypocenter of the attack on Hiroshima, but they survived the catastrophe, and the radiation that killed thousands in the months following had no effect on them.
The Jesuits priests Hugo Lassalle, Hubert Schiffer, Wilhelm Kleinsorge, and Hubert Cieslik were at the rectory of the church of Our Lady of the Assumption, one of the few buildings that resisted the bomb blast.
Father Cieslik wrote in his diary that they only sustained minor injuries from the broken windows – but nothing resulting from the atomic energy that was unleashed.
The doctors who took care of them afterwards warned them that the radiation they received would produce serious lesions, as well as illness and premature death.
The diagnosis never materialized. No disorders ever developed, and in 1976 Father Schiffer attended the Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia and told his story. He confirmed that the other Jesuits were still alive and without any ailments. They were examined by dozens of doctors some 200 times over the course of the following years, without any trace of the radiation being found in their bodies."

I say "moderate" because some descriptions of this event you find online go much further in their claims, saying the priests received no injuries at all (the above one mentions minor injuries) or that there was no damage at all to their building (the above says there were broken windows), or that they were the only survivors in their area (a claim not made by the above article).

However, even the article's version seems a bit exaggerated (though nowhere as much as some others). John Hersey's book Hiroshima (published originally in 1946, with an updated version published in 1985 that discusses more about what happened afterwards) actually discusses Wilhelm Kleinsorge, one of the priests. On page 110 we see:

"Back in the hospital in Tokyo for the second time, Father Kleinsorge was suffering from fever, diarrhea, wounds that would not heal, wildly fluctuating blood counts, and utter exhaustion. For the rest of his life, this was to be a classic case history of that vague, borderline form of A-bomb sickness in which a person's body developed a rich repertory of symptoms, few of which could be positively attributed to radiation, but many of which turned up in hibakusha, in various combinations and degrees, so often as to be blamed by some doctors and almost all patients on the bomb."

And then concerning later events, on page 112:

"His most disturbing complaint was a weird infection in his fingers, which had become bloated with pus and would not heal. He had fever and flulike symptoms. His white blood count was seriously low, and he had pain in his knees, particularly the left one, and in other joints. His fingers were operated on and slowly healed. He was treated for leukopenia. Before his discharge, an ophthalmologist found that he had the beginnings of an A-bomb cataract."

More information is given about his subsequent life and medical problems; you can see them for yourself at Hiroshima : Hersey, John, 1914-1993 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. It is difficult to reconcile the claim that the priests were all unharmed and never suffered from radiation poisoning or disorders with the above account, which it even notes went on "for the rest of his life." Now, it is true that he did not seem to suffer a premature death (the book says he was 38 at the time of the bomb dropping, and that he died in 1977, which would make him about 70 when he died), but he does seem to have suffered various medical issues subsequently. In case anyone is wondering about how long the others lived, according to their Wikipedia pages, Hugo Lassalle lived to be 91 (Hugo Enomiya-Lassalle - Wikipedia), Hubert Schiffer lived to be 76 (Hubert Schiffer - Wikipedia), and Hubert Cieslik lived to be 84 (Hubert Cieslik – Wikipedia).

This does bring up the question of the claim that "in 1976 Father Schiffer attended the Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia and told his story. He confirmed that the other Jesuits were still alive and without any ailments." If the above account in the book Hiroshima is accurate, then this statement does not seem accurate; while they were all alive, it is obvious that Kleinsorge was suffering from diseases. Of course, we only have a description of Schiffer's remarks rather than what he literally said, so perhaps the description is inaccurate.

Here is another account. This is not by one of those priests, but rather a different one (John Siemes) who was in Japan. Siemes was not present with them at the time of the bomb, but met them soon afterwards:

Here is his description:

"At the far corner of the park, on the river bank itself, we at last come upon our colleagues. Father Schiffer is on the ground pale as a ghost. He has a deep incised wound behind the ear and has lost so much blood that we are concerned about his chances for survival. The Father Superior has suffered a deep wound of the lower leg. Father Cieslik and Father Kleinsorge have minor injuries but are completely exhausted.

While they are eating the food that we have brought along, they tell us of their experiences. They were in their rooms at the Parish House--it was a quarter after eight, exactly the time when we had heard the explosion in Nagatsuke--when came the intense light and immediately thereafter the sound of breaking windows, walls and furniture. They were showered with glass splinters and fragments of wreckage. Father Schiffer was buried beneath a portion of a wall and suffered a severe head injury. The Father Superior received most of the splinters in his back and lower extremity from which he bled copiously. Everything was thrown about in the rooms themselves, but the wooden framework of the house remained intact. The solidity of the structure which was the work of Brother Gropper again shone forth.

They had the same impression that we had in Nagatsuke: that the bomb had burst in their immediate vicinity. The Church, school, and all buildings in the immediate vicinity collapsed at once. Beneath the ruins of the school, the children cried for help. They were freed with great effort. Several others were also rescued from the ruins of nearby dwellings. Even the Father Superior and Father Schiffer despite their wounds, rendered aid to others and lost a great deal of blood in the process."

Again, this demonstrates they weren't unharmed, and we see there were other survivors in their area as well. It does note that while their house was damaged, it still was able to keep standing, though it attributes it to the work of "Brother Gropper" who helped build it. But the injuries actually seem to have been fairly severe, rather than minor--though, to be fair, perhaps the "minor injuries" simply meant one that wasn't completely debilitating, as it does note they were able to help others still.

So we do have Jesuits who survived the dropping of the atomic bomb, and they were in a house that managed to (unlike most of the other buildings nearby) survive, and they did all live reasonably long lives, even the one who was suffering from various illnesses throughout his life. This is indeed a notable story, and they were fortunate to survive and live so long. But it is not as miraculous as some make it out to be.
 
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Mountainmike

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I remember looking into this in the past. While based on fact, many of the claims about the priests seem to have become very exaggerated in the telling. For example, they were not unharmed.

So that people know what is even being discussed, here is an account of the events that could be considered "moderate":
https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/32445/the-miracle-of-hiroshima-–-jesuits-survived-the-atomic-bomb-thanks-to-the-rosary

"Four Jesuits were nearby the hypocenter of the attack on Hiroshima, but they survived the catastrophe, and the radiation that killed thousands in the months following had no effect on them.
The Jesuits priests Hugo Lassalle, Hubert Schiffer, Wilhelm Kleinsorge, and Hubert Cieslik were at the rectory of the church of Our Lady of the Assumption, one of the few buildings that resisted the bomb blast.
Father Cieslik wrote in his diary that they only sustained minor injuries from the broken windows – but nothing resulting from the atomic energy that was unleashed.
The doctors who took care of them afterwards warned them that the radiation they received would produce serious lesions, as well as illness and premature death.
The diagnosis never materialized. No disorders ever developed, and in 1976 Father Schiffer attended the Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia and told his story. He confirmed that the other Jesuits were still alive and without any ailments. They were examined by dozens of doctors some 200 times over the course of the following years, without any trace of the radiation being found in their bodies."

I say "moderate" because some descriptions of this event you find online go much further in their claims, saying the priests received no injuries at all (the above one mentions minor injuries) or that there was no damage at all to their building (the above says there were broken windows), or that they were the only survivors in their area (a claim not made by the above article).

However, even the article's version seems a bit exaggerated (though nowhere as much as some others). John Hersey's book Hiroshima (published originally in 1946, with an updated version published in 1985 that discusses more about what happened afterwards) actually discusses Wilhelm Kleinsorge, one of the priests. On page 110 we see:

"Back in the hospital in Tokyo for the second time, Father Kleinsorge was suffering from fever, diarrhea, wounds that would not heal, wildly fluctuating blood counts, and utter exhaustion. For the rest of his life, this was to be a classic case history of that vague, borderline form of A-bomb sickness in which a person's body developed a rich repertory of symptoms, few of which could be positively attributed to radiation, but many of which turned up in hibakusha, in various combinations and degrees, so often as to be blamed by some doctors and almost all patients on the bomb."

And then concerning later events, on page 112:

"His most disturbing complaint was a weird infection in his fingers, which had become bloated with pus and would not heal. He had fever and flulike symptoms. His white blood count was seriously low, and he had pain in his knees, particularly the left one, and in other joints. His fingers were operated on and slowly healed. He was treated for leukopenia. Before his discharge, an ophthalmologist found that he had the beginnings of an A-bomb cataract."

More information is given about his subsequent life and medical problems; you can see them for yourself at Hiroshima : Hersey, John, 1914-1993 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. It is difficult to reconcile the claim that the priests were all unharmed and never suffered from radiation poisoning or disorders with the above account, which it even notes went on "for the rest of his life." Now, it is true that he did not seem to suffer a premature death (the book says he was 38 at the time of the bomb dropping, and that he died in 1977, which would make him about 70 when he died), but he does seem to have suffered various medical issues subsequently. In case anyone is wondering about how long the others lived, according to their Wikipedia pages, Hugo Lassalle lived to be 91 (Hugo Enomiya-Lassalle - Wikipedia), Hubert Schiffer lived to be 76 (Hubert Schiffer - Wikipedia), and Hubert Cieslik lived to be 84 (Hubert Cieslik – Wikipedia).

This does bring up the question of the claim that "in 1976 Father Schiffer attended the Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia and told his story. He confirmed that the other Jesuits were still alive and without any ailments." If the above account in the book Hiroshima is accurate, then this statement does not seem accurate; while they were all alive, it is obvious that Kleinsorge was suffering from diseases. Of course, we only have a description of Schiffer's remarks rather than what he literally said, so perhaps the description is inaccurate.

Here is another account. This is not by one of those priests, but rather a different one (John Siemes) who was in Japan. Siemes was not present with them at the time of the bomb, but met them soon afterwards:

Here is his description:

"At the far corner of the park, on the river bank itself, we at last come upon our colleagues. Father Schiffer is on the ground pale as a ghost. He has a deep incised wound behind the ear and has lost so much blood that we are concerned about his chances for survival. The Father Superior has suffered a deep wound of the lower leg. Father Cieslik and Father Kleinsorge have minor injuries but are completely exhausted.

While they are eating the food that we have brought along, they tell us of their experiences. They were in their rooms at the Parish House--it was a quarter after eight, exactly the time when we had heard the explosion in Nagatsuke--when came the intense light and immediately thereafter the sound of breaking windows, walls and furniture. They were showered with glass splinters and fragments of wreckage. Father Schiffer was buried beneath a portion of a wall and suffered a severe head injury. The Father Superior received most of the splinters in his back and lower extremity from which he bled copiously. Everything was thrown about in the rooms themselves, but the wooden framework of the house remained intact. The solidity of the structure which was the work of Brother Gropper again shone forth.

They had the same impression that we had in Nagatsuke: that the bomb had burst in their immediate vicinity. The Church, school, and all buildings in the immediate vicinity collapsed at once. Beneath the ruins of the school, the children cried for help. They were freed with great effort. Several others were also rescued from the ruins of nearby dwellings. Even the Father Superior and Father Schiffer despite their wounds, rendered aid to others and lost a great deal of blood in the process."

Again, this demonstrates they weren't unharmed, and we see there were other survivors in their area as well. It does note that while their house was damaged, it still was able to keep standing, though it attributes it to the work of "Brother Gropper" who helped build it. But the injuries actually seem to have been fairly severe, rather than minor--though, to be fair, perhaps the "minor injuries" simply meant one that wasn't completely debilitating, as it does note they were able to help others still.

So we do have Jesuits who survived the dropping of the atomic bomb, and they were in a house that managed to (unlike most of the other buildings nearby) survive, and they did all live reasonably long lives, even the one who was suffering from various illnesses throughout his life. This is indeed a notable story, and they were fortunate to survive and live so long. But it is not as miraculous as some make it out to be.
i Agree, stories change, Thanks for the link,
However the general lack of radiation sickness in the others is remarkable.
they were at the epicentre , where very few survived at all. Photos of that area show no building left standing except the stone church.

Much radiation sickness developed in helpers through touching fallout. Although that was unknown at the time.
I added the case as an afterthought.
It’s probably the one I know least about.

Comments on others?
 
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Mountainmike

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If there is an appetite , I’ll tackle them one by one.
As for “ beyond doubt” . The evidence is of different character in each case,

for a sceptical world those with medical Or forensic evidence clearly are more persuasive.

For example - at the science verifiable end
The bleeding statue of Cochabamba was an “ ecce homo” bust of Jesus - it bled and wept on continuous live camera footage, over a long period. CT scans deominstrated no internal pathways even the breadth of a human hair. Forensic evidence by credible multiple pathologists showed not only blood but smashed up epithelial skin cells , all showing igns of trauma, and also vegetative matter resembling thorn. it had MtDNA but no DNA identity. It is Beyond doubt or ability to fake.

The inedia of Alexandrina da Costa ( didn’t eat, drink, urinate or defecate or lose weight - exceot for daily Eucharist host for a decade ) was assumed to be a hoax. So she was forced into hospital by atheist doctors to expose it as fraud. She was paralysed so could not leave, After 20 days of investigation and searching of any who entered , she had suffered no I’ll effect.
So they tightened controls and replaced all staff . Then another 20 days passed, and she shoukd have been dead long before from dehydration, but still her blood tests were normal . They had to release her, and a joint report and declaration of the medics said it was “ beyond science” to explain.

Some is just camera footage.
katya rivas did indeed have stigmata prophesied months in advance witnessed and filmed on continuous footage .
The questin is not just how wounds formed - but how did they heal in hours?

She was also witnessed and filmed writing continuously , never stopping, slowing, thinking , rubbing out or correcting,for hours at a time, giving many detailed biblical references along the way without looking them up. No top author can do that! She wrote perfectly grammatically and syntactically correctly , and at times in languages she had no knowledge of - Latin, Greek even polish. How?

She claimed the books were dictated to her by Jesus and they are there for all to see. The apostolate of the new evangelisation. They make fascinating reading. I recommend all do so. ECG monitoring showed she was in “ delta wave state ” at the time of locutions, which no wake person should be.

She was not unique. Therese Neumman was the same, a stigmatic peasant who spoke perfect Aramaic, Also with inedia , but who did not undergo hospital tests.

At the other end we have just witness testimony of what is way beyond experience.
What shouldn’t happen did.

After WWII our lady’s statue was taken in procession from Fatima to Lisbon ( and after that around Portugal and the world) . White Doves released surprisingly settled At her feet. And they refused to leave no matter the provocation. When they entered the cathedral at Lisbon, at the moment of consecration of the mass. The doves settled with open wings on either side of the altar , and one on our lady’s crown.
Then They Returned to the feet.

Doves at the feet of our lady became constant travelling companions on journeys around Portugal and Spain . None were put there. They flew in. There are many pictures of them . Some died to be replaced by others , some left and others took their place . They were not tethered or fed. Attempts to scare them away failed.
Very soon the media of the time including national media was dominated by the doves.

There are a Couple of books of history and anecdotes of their antics. Eg A famous sceptic in the alentejo in advance of our lady coming, stated in a report that the doves must be tethered. As the statue entered his town, one of the doves flew from our lady and landed on his window sill!

They accompanied the pilgrim virgin even on some international flights. Lots of photos.
All you can say is -
Ordinary Doves don’t do that.

Then there is coincidence .

A bed ridden peasant nun described our Ladies house in Ephesus. She described it as it was In our ladies time.
She described the unique view from there to islands in the sea, and of ephesus itself.

Many years later a search party was sent to find it , on a very rugged and densely vegetated mountain top many km from Ephesus. By accident whilst looking for water they found the overgrown tumbledown wreck from The description - the only place from which the view would be as described By the nun.

The original building had clearly been modified in early centuries And turned into a long disused shrine , but it was only when they dug down they found the footings in the unusual shape that was described . So no contemporary visitor would have described it as the nun did. Her consciousness was of a different time and place.

That was how “ panaghia caPouli” or “meryemana evi “ on nightingale mountain was found by Sr mandat de gracy.
Even the acquisition of the site had some impossible coincidences!
it is Now a massive shrine to where apostle John took Mary to live. Mary’s house. Several books.
 
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Mountainmike

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No other thoughts or views?
has nobody of heard of eg Alexandrina da Costa , eg Mary’s house Ephesus, eg the bleeding statue of cochabamba?
The last is as close to scientific proot of miracle as you can get!
The middle is visited by millions each year.
The first was all over the secular newspapers of the time!
 
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Bob Crowley

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I don't bother looking up evidence of miracles too often as I've had too many spiritual incidents of my own.

I know God's there and I also know that there's a judgement due to the fact my own father turned up the night he died. We had a discussion and I know it was him - we'd lived in the same house for the better part of twenty years.

The last scene I had of him was a blood curdling scream. It was also obvious something was coming for him but I wasn't allowed to see what it was. I still remember most of what we said, the way he materialised near the bedroom door; how he appeared (I could focus on him or through him like smoke from a fire) and in particular the departing scream.

I remember one of my uncles turning up four days later to tell me he'd died, but it was a "mess" as he'd been dead for four days before he was found. I remember the penny dropping, counting back four nights and thinking "What the hell was that the other night!!??"

But I was an atheist at the time and I also remember thinking "Nah! I don't believe in those sorts of things! It must have been a bad dream or something!" And tried to ignore it. But the memory never left, and it was still there when I became a Christian nearly four years later.

That was 44 years ago when I was 24 going on 25.

It was probably just as well I couldn't see what we coming for him - when the three children were given a brief vision of Hell by Mary at Fatima they said they nearly died of fright. The saving grace was that it was so brief. Rest assured my father was screaming his head off.

Meanwhile the atheists insist we're off our meds if we admit to having had an experience like this. The reality is that the day they die, they'll find our whether we're telling the truth or not.
 
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I don't bother looking up evidence of miracles too often as I've had too many spiritual incidents of my own.

I know God's there and I also know that there's a judgement due to the fact my own father turned up the night he died. We had a discussion and I know it was him - we'd lived in the same house for the better part of twenty years.

The last scene I had of him was a blood curdling scream. It was also obvious something was coming for him but I wasn't allowed to see what it was. I still remember most of what we said, the way he materialised near the bedroom door; how he appeared (I could focus on him or through him like smoke from a fire) and in particular the departing scream.

I remember one of my uncles turning up four days later to tell me he'd died, but it was a "mess" as he'd been dead for four days before he was found. I remember the penny dropping, counting back four nights and thinking "What the hell was that the other night!!??"

But I was an atheist at the time and I also remember thinking "Nah! I don't believe in those sorts of things! It must have been a bad dream or something!" And tried to ignore it. But the memory never left, and it was still there when I became a Christian nearly four years later.

That was 44 years ago when I was 24 going on 25.

It was probably just as well I couldn't see what we coming for him - when the three children were given a brief vision of Hell by Mary at Fatima they said they nearly died of fright. The saving grace was that it was so brief. Rest assured my father was screaming his head off.

Meanwhile the atheists insist we're off our meds if we admit to having had an experience like this. The reality is that the day they die, they'll find our whether we're telling the truth or not.
Faith does not and should not come from the miraculous .
Although we are all doubting thomases at times!
However.
1/ it would be surprising if God intervening in the world at times did not leave traces . it does!
also
2/ some of these are clearly performed to say “ I’m still here” to dispel materialism , so Jesus subjects himself to modern forensics.Eg the bleeding statue of Cochabamba
We should promote them ! So I find it bad that even Catholics don’t know them.
finally
3/ some are done , not just to dispel materialism , but in my view to say “ the Catholics are right about the Eucharist. It really is flesh and blood. So is our Lords antidote to the Protestant symbolic only eucharist.
Catholics should promote those most of all.
 
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