Born of WATER and the Spirit

tonychanyt · Jul 19, 2023

Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:

5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

25 “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

2. Water refers to John's water baptism, John 1:

33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’

Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”

I take the simplest way out: #3. The context bears this out, John 3:

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

sandman · Jul 19, 2023

It’s the easiest because it’s the right way ….The Bible does interpret itself.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Anyone who takes this beyond what Jesus states (and there are plenty of people who do) fall into the category of private interpretation.

tonychanyt · Jul 19, 2023

sandman said:
It’s the easiest because it’s the right way ….The Bible does interpret itself.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Good point

sandman said:
Anyone who takes this beyond what Jesus states (and there are plenty of people who do) fall into the category of private interpretation.

Are you against private interpretation in general?

sandman · Jul 19, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Are you against private interpretation in general?

Always
If the Word doesn't tell us ...we just don't know.
Private interpretation is how we ended up with so many religions.

I can put together a good case for something (based on several scripture) like, what died with Adam ... But if I do... I will always state that it is speculation.

tonychanyt · Jul 19, 2023

sandman said:
Always
If the Word doesn't tell us ...we just don't know.
Private interpretation is how we ended up with so many religions.

I can put together a good case for something (based on several scripture) like, what died with Adam ... But if I do... I will always state that it is speculation.

That's what I do as well. I am not against private interpretation per se. When I do e.g., at Dark earth?, I make it clear it was my speculation

Ain't Zwinglian · Jul 19, 2023

tonychanyt said:
3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

I take the simplest way out: #3.

Only a male living 2000 years after Jesus' statement would comment like this. Born of water means childbirth? Are you kidding?

When was the last time two women were talking about their children and said, "Back in the day, when my son was born of water." Nobody talks this way. Nobody. Only a male would. Women just would laugh at this. This is utter nonsense.

tonychanyt · Jul 19, 2023

Ain't Zwinglian said:
Only a male living 2000 years after Jesus' statement would comment like this.

any reference? proof? support?

concretecamper · Jul 19, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:

What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

2. Water refers to John's water baptism, John 1:

Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

I take the simplest way out: #3.

I'll believe St. John Chrysostom's take on it. It is also the take of His Church

CHRYS. If any one asks how a man is born of water, I ask in return, how Adam was born from the ground. For as in the beginning though the element of earth was the subject-matter, the man was the work of the fashioner; so now too, though the element of water is the subject-matter, the whole work is done by the Spirit of grace. He then gave Paradise for a place to dwell in; now He has opened heaven to us. But what need is there of water, to those who receive the Holy Ghost? It carries out the divine symbols of burial, mortification, resurrection, and life. For by the immersion of our heads in the water, the old man disappears and is buried as it were in a sepulcher, whence he ascends a new man. Thus should you learn, that the virtue of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, fills all things. For which reason also Christ lay three days in the grave before His resurrection. That then which the womb is to the offspring, water is to the believer; he is fashioned and formed in the water. But that which is fashioned in the womb needs time; whereas the water all is done in an instant. For the nature of the body is such as to require time for its completion; but spiritual creations are perfect from the beginning. From the time that our Lord ascended out of the Jordan, water produces no longer reptiles, i.e. living souls; but souls rational and endued with the Spirit.

Fireinfolding · Jul 19, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:

What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

2. Water refers to John's water baptism, John 1:

Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

I take the simplest way out: #3.

I would say #2 since Nicodemus was a man of the Pharisees (John 3:1) and because it specifically states that the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the very counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him/John (Luke 7:30)

So I would agree, that Nicodemus did know about John's water baptism for repentance but given the Pharisees rejected the counsel of God concerning being baptized with water by John could be the reason Jesus brought that up to him (who was of the Pharisees) when he come to him by night to see him.

3 Resurrections · Jul 19, 2023

tonychanyt said:
What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

May I submit a 4th interpretation? This clears up all the fog for us. It all centers on that little Greek word "kai" again. Sometimes it is translated as the conjunction "and", meaning "also, or "in addition to". So, in that case it would read "Except a man be born of water and [also] the Spirit...".

But that isn't the only use of the word "kai" in Greek. "Kai" can also be used in an explanatory sense, meaning "namely", or "even". So in that case, John 3:5 would read, "Except a man be born of water, NAMELY the Spirit...". Water in this case is just used as a symbol of the Spirit which comes to dwell within a believer. This tallies with the way Christ described the work of the Spirit in John 7:37-39. On that last great day of the feast, Jesus cried out, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER. (But this spake he of THE SPIRIT, which they that believe on him should receive..."

My vote is for the 4th interpretation, since it is in sync with Christ's declaration identifying the Spirit as a spring of living water implanted within a believer. Only those who have been born of water, NAMELY the Spirit, can enter or see the kingdom of God.

SavedByGrace3 · Jul 20, 2023

I think it is pretty evident that being born of water means to be born in the physical and to be born again is to be born of the spirit.
That is eternal life as opposed to the temporal physical life.

tonychanyt · Jul 20, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
May I submit a 4th interpretation? This clears up all the fog for us. It all centers on that little Greek word "kai" again. Sometimes it is translated as the conjunction "and", meaning "also, or "in addition to". So, in that case it would read "Except a man be born of water and [also] the Spirit...".

But that isn't the only use of the word "kai" in Greek. "Kai" can also be used in an explanatory sense, meaning "namely", or "even". So in that case, John 3:5 would read, "Except a man be born of water, NAMELY the Spirit...". Water in this case is just used as a symbol of the Spirit which comes to dwell within a believer. This tallies with the way Christ described the work of the Spirit in John 7:37-39. On that last great day of the feast, Jesus cried out, "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of LIVING WATER. (But this spake he of THE SPIRIT, which they that believe on him should receive..."

My vote is for the 4th interpretation, since it is in sync with Christ's declaration identifying the Spirit as a spring of living water implanted within a believer. Only those who have been born of water, NAMELY the Spirit, can enter or see the kingdom of God.

Thanks for sharing.

What about the context

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Maria Billingsley · Jul 20, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:

What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

2. Water refers to John's water baptism, John 1:

Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

I take the simplest way out: #3. The context bears this out, John 3:

Agree #3. One can not recieve His Holy Spirit unless they are in the flesh in other words, born of water from the womb first then born again in His Spirit as a beliver.
Blessings.

eleos1954 · Jul 20, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:

What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

2. Water refers to John's water baptism, John 1:

Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

I take the simplest way out: #3. The context bears this out, John 3:

6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

I'd agree with this ..... one must be spiritually reborn.

3 Resurrections · Jul 20, 2023

eleos1954 said:
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

This John 3:6 verse means that those who were born as natural fleshly descendants of Abraham (the "flesh") did not have what was necessary to see and enter the kingdom of God. Ethnic connection by physical birth into the tribes of Israel was not the prerequisite for salvation. The Israelites needed to be 'born AGAIN" - this time by the Spirit implanted within them like a fountain of living water - to see and enter that kingdom of God. It's just as Christ later on told His disciples in John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing..."

Nicodemus as a ruler of the Jews would have been heavily invested in his identity as a natural-born Israelite in the flesh, descended by blood from Abraham. Christ was informing Nicodemus of the startling truth that his birth with a "flesh" connection to Abraham - without being born AGAIN of the Spirit - counted for nothing in the kingdom of God. This was a major issue in the debates of the early church, and a battle which Paul waged constantly against those who were his own Israelite kindred according to the flesh.

eleos1954 · Jul 24, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
This John 3:6 verse means that those who were born as natural fleshly descendants of Abraham (the "flesh") did not have what was necessary to see and enter the kingdom of God. Ethnic connection by physical birth into the tribes of Israel was not the prerequisite for salvation. The Israelites needed to be 'born AGAIN" - this time by the Spirit implanted within them like a fountain of living water - to see and enter that kingdom of God. It's just as Christ later on told His disciples in John 6:63, "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing..."

Nicodemus as a ruler of the Jews would have been heavily invested in his identity as a natural-born Israelite in the flesh, descended by blood from Abraham. Christ was informing Nicodemus of the startling truth that his birth with a "flesh" connection to Abraham - without being born AGAIN of the Spirit - counted for nothing in the kingdom of God. This was a major issue in the debates of the early church, and a battle which Paul waged constantly against those who were his own Israelite kindred according to the flesh.

Yes, it is by the Spirit .... and not by the flesh .... it is a spiritual relationship .... the flesh counts for nothing .... so it does not make biblical sense the idea by many .... if not most .... believing that there is still something that needs to be fulfilled through the earthly nation of Israel (such as an earthly temple being built) ..... everything needed for salvation is/was fulfilled in Christ alone. All covenants are fulfilled through Jesus ..... it is impossible for mankind to keep covenants with God. So many are still believing in the flesh (fleshly jewish decent as God's special people) so really nothing has changed (from days of old) for those that hold that belief .... they are hanging on to the flesh of earthly Israel (so to speak)

Galatians 3:26-29
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Jesus is the true Israel, and the church (the born again) becomes the Israel of God as it unites to the True Israel (Jesus). The same is true for ethnic Israel (earthly nation of Israel), whom God has not abandoned.

Galatians 6:16 is a reference to the unified people of God (born again) consisting of both ethnic Jews and Gentiles who have faith in Jesus Christ.

Danthemailman · Jul 27, 2023

In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (verse 4) and with "flesh" (verse 6). Simply stated in that case, in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, flesh birth, accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

There are also those who would argue that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

Yet there are still others who would argue that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, so that we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the miracle of regeneration.

Others would argue that the word water is referring to water baptism, yet to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

CoreyD · Aug 2, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Jesus spoke to Nicodemus in John 3:

What is born of water?

There are at least 3 interpretations:

1. Water is a symbol of cleansing, Ezekiel 36:

2. Water refers to John's water baptism, John 1:

Nicodemus knew about John's water baptism for repentance. Jesus informed him that there was another requirement. Ellicott, Cambridge Bible, and Bengel agreed to this interpretation #2.

3. Water refers to natural watery birth, John 3:

I take the simplest way out: #3. The context bears this out, John 3:

I have heard this before - the third one, that is.
It's interesting. However, I propose a fourth.

#4 baptism by water

This refers to baptism - not by John, but baptism, as described in Matthew 28:19.

This is brought out in many scriptures.

John's disciples needed to be re-baptized - born in water
Cornelius needed to be baptized- born in water
Jesus needed to get baptized - born in water

These were all anointed by spirit - born by spirit, as sons of God.
All these were voluntary - not automatic, and uncontrolled like child birth (not considering that many are born by cesarean section).
They harmonize with the apostle Peter's words at 1 Peter 3:18-21

18 For Christ also suffered for sins ..., having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

19 in which He also went and made proclamation to the spirits in prison,

20 who once were disobedient when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

There is more, but I can elaborate a bit more, later.

CoreyD · Aug 2, 2023

sandman said:
It’s the easiest because it’s the right way ….The Bible does interpret itself.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Anyone who takes this beyond what Jesus states (and there are plenty of people who do) fall into the category of private interpretation.

That's correct. We should not go beyond,
Since Jesus did not say one must be born of flesh, the scripture is not referring to being born again, but rather, highlights that being born of flesh makes one, of the flesh.
Therefore, one must be born again - born, not of flesh, but of water, and spirit. Which would exclude childbirth - born of the flesh.
Would you agree?

Born of WATER and the Spirit

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