Two aspects of the coming of Christ recorded in Matthew 24.

DavidPT · Jul 18, 2023

Note that the title says coming not comings. IOW, what I submit as A) and B) below, it is meaning the same coming, not different comings at different times.

A) Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

B) Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Obviously, if there are two aspects of this coming, one is good the other is bad. Obviously, A) is good, B) is bad. Next we need to factor in Matthew 24:42-51 in relation to this coming.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Let's begin with verses 45-47. Obviously, aspect B) is not reserved for these, aspect A) is.

And finally, let's consider verses 48-51. Obviously, aspect A) is not reserved for these, aspect B) is.

And we see something similar in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5. In chapter 4, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, that is obviously involving aspect A) above. Chapter 5 would then be involving aspects A) and B) above like such.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape(aspect B is reserved for these)

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober(aspect A is reserved for these)

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(aspect B is reserved for these)

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him(aspect A is reserved for these)

It's really this simple, therefore, any interpretation that conceals these truths rather than bring these truths to light, must be rejected, period. Fortunately, that is the case with many of us, that we reject any and all interpretations, whether it be Pretrib or Preterism, that conceal these truths rather than bring them to light as Christ and other authors in the NT, such as Paul per 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, had intended.

JulieB67 · Jul 18, 2023

DavidPT said:
Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Many would have us believe that this is not meant for Christians but clearly it is. The faithful and wise servant is definitely a Christian on watch for the Lord's return. It even states "whom his Lord when cometh.....We know his Lord is Christ and if it's "his Lord" he is most definitely a Christian.

And yes, it is simple. I know I have different beliefs with others on many things but this one is the most simple belief to see and read. It's always one singular coming. And Christ states this many times, "I come quickly, I come with clouds, I come like a thief...."

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

grafted branch · Jul 18, 2023

DavidPT said:
Note that the title says coming not comings. IOW, what I submit as A) and B) below, it is meaning the same coming, not different comings at different times.

A) Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

B) Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Obviously, if there are two aspects of this coming, one is good the other is bad. Obviously, A) is good, B) is bad. Next we need to factor in Matthew 24:42-51 in relation to this coming.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Let's begin with verses 45-47. Obviously, aspect B) is not reserved for these, aspect A) is.

And finally, let's consider verses 48-51. Obviously, aspect A) is not reserved for these, aspect B) is.

And we see something similar in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5. In chapter 4, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, that is obviously involving aspect A) above. Chapter 5 would then be involving aspects A) and B) above like such.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape(aspect B is reserved for these)

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober(aspect A is reserved for these)

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(aspect B is reserved for these)

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him(aspect A is reserved for these)

It's really this simple, therefore, any interpretation that conceals these truths rather than bring these truths to light, must be rejected, period. Fortunately, that is the case with many of us, that we reject any and all interpretations, whether it be Pretrib or Preterism, that conceal these truths rather than bring them to light as Christ and other authors in the NT, such as Paul per 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5, had intended.

I think only those who believe in a pretrib rapture will not agree with you.

You have two aspects of Christ’s coming, A) and B), that are reserved for people. Would you say the deciding factor on whether a person receives option A) or option B) is if they flee or not when they see the AOD?

Another thing that could affect how a person looks at this is if the coming of Christ is synonymous with the day of the Lord and this event is 3.5 years or 7 years or some other length of time depending on a person’s view. I know some people will insist that the coming of Christ happens in a split second, twinkling of an eye, but Luke 17:30-31 seems to indicate that the day the Son of man is revealed is also the day people flee in a similar manner as to when they flee the AOD.

DavidPT · Jul 19, 2023

grafted branch said:
You have two aspects of Christ’s coming, A) and B), that are reserved for people. Would you say the deciding factor on whether a person receives option A) or option B) is if they flee or not when they see the AOD?

Actually, yes, but not in the way you might be thinking, such as fleeing literal Jerusalem prior to 70 AD. I do not take anything recorded in Matthew 24:15-20 in a literal sense. For example.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Why these in particular if meaning in a literal sense? Why not woe upon anyone else as well, if verse 19 is meaning in a literal sense? Back in those days prior to 70 AD, assuming verse 19 is involving those same days, there were lame people, for example. Some of them had difficult walking. Some of them couldn't walk at all. Why not woe on them as well? This woe in question has to be involving something spiritual not something literal where it only affects certain ppl, in this case, them that are with child. That couldn't possibly be meant to be taken literally to mean them that are with child, the way we literally take them with child to mean.

grafted branch said:
I know some people will insist that the coming of Christ happens in a split second, twinkling of an eye, but Luke 17:30-31 seems to indicate that the day the Son of man is revealed is also the day people flee in a similar manner as to when they flee the AOD.

This is worthy of further discussion except I don't have anything to add at the moment.

JulieB67 · Jul 19, 2023

DavidPT said:
This woe in question has to be involving something spiritual

I think it's definitely spiritual. To me it's the fact that we are to remain spiritual virgins until Christ has returned. We are his bride- him the bridegroom. Anyone falling away would be spiritually impregnated imo.

DavidPT · Jul 19, 2023

JulieB67 said:
I think it's definitely spiritual. To me it's the fact that we are to remain spiritual virgins until Christ has returned. We are his bride- him the bridegroom. Anyone falling away would be spiritually impregnated imo.

Maybe we are somewhat on the same page in regards to some of this since I too see Matthew 24:15-26 involving falling away. Those that don't spiritually flee they fall away. Those that do spiritually flee, they don't. Right or wrong, that's basically how I reason it. Especially since I'm convinced that Matthew 24:15-26 is involving some of 2 Thessalonians 2, and that we are already told in verse 3 there will be a great falling away. And then if we factor in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-- the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders--that appears to fit verses 23-26 in Matthew 24. Except some interpreters are too busy trying to make square pegs fit in round holes by forcing Matthew 24:15-26 to fit the first century and 70 AD that they don't even notice some of these other things and how they are a better fit instead, thus round pegs and round holes.

grafted branch · Jul 19, 2023

DavidPT said:
I do not take anything recorded in Matthew 24:15-20 in a literal sense. For example.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

Why these in particular if meaning in a literal sense? Why not woe upon anyone else as well, if verse 19 is meaning in a literal sense? Back in those days prior to 70 AD, assuming verse 19 is involving those same days, there were lame people, for example. Some of them had difficult walking. Some of them couldn't walk at all. Why not woe on them as well? This woe in question has to be involving something spiritual not something literal where it only affects certain ppl, in this case, them that are with child. That couldn't possibly be meant to be taken literally to mean them that are with child, the way we literally take them with child to mean.

Why can’t this be both, something that literally happened in 70AD which foreshadows a still future event?

3 Resurrections · Jul 19, 2023

JulieB67 said:
I think it's definitely spiritual. To me it's the fact that we are to remain spiritual virgins until Christ has returned. We are his bride- him the bridegroom. Anyone falling away would be spiritually impregnated imo.

You are trying to make this warning to expectant and nursing women into something that Christ never intended. On the way to the cross, Christ told the weeping women, "Weep not for me but for yourselves, and for your children..." He told them that the days were coming in that generation when barren women would be considered blessed, and those who never gave suck to children would be better off than those who were pregnant or nursing babies. The times of tribulation coming on those women and their children would be so dreadful that these most vulnerable ones would suffer horribly. That was not a "spiritual flight" which they would need to make - it was going to be a literal run for the mountains to avoid those disasters.

"Falling away" is being "spiritually impregnated"??? Let's not stretch this beyond the bounds of Christ's very plain speech to the women of His generation. The word "apostasia" can mean either a spiritual departure from the truth or a CIVIL rebellion against governmental powers. Or both. Both of those things were happening in the first century, as scripture testifies.

David Kent · Jul 19, 2023

JulieB67 said:
Many would have us believe that this is not meant for Christians but clearly it is. The faithful and wise servant is definitely a Christian on watch for the Lord's return. It even states "whom his Lord when cometh.....We know his Lord is Christ and if it's "his Lord" he is most definitely a Christian.

And yes, it is simple. I know I have different beliefs with others on many things but this one is the most simple belief to see and read. It's always one singular coming. And Christ states this many times, "I come quickly, I come with clouds, I come like a thief...."

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Of course it was meant for Christians Jesus was speaking to Christians, the apostles, it was them who had to flee when they saw the abomination of desolation, that is the armies surrounding Jerusalem.

The saints will be raised on the last day. John 6:39, 40,44,54 and 11:24.

The Judgement will also be on the last day, John 12:48

JulieB67 · Jul 19, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
"Falling away" is being "spiritually impregnated"???

We are to remain chaste/pure virgins until Christ returns.

II Corinthians 11:2 "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."

If someone were to fall away and worship the fake Christ they would no longer be a virgin spiritually. You can gloss over the fact that Christ's is laying out the signs before his return but they are there in Matthew 24. They asked about his return. He certainly didn't return in 70 AD.

3 Resurrections · Jul 20, 2023

JulieB67 said:
They asked about his return. He certainly didn't return in 70 AD.

Were you there as an eye-witness at the time in Jerusalem, so that you can declare that with confidence?

JulieB67 said:
If someone were to fall away and worship the fake Christ they would no longer be a virgin spiritually

If "falling away" is becoming "spiritually pregnant" with false doctrine, then what kind of sinful activity are you going to connect with the nursing mothers that Christ spoke about? I think you are over the edge with your symbolism in this particular context. Christ was not warning those weeping women on the way to the cross not to fall into false doctrine and become "pregnant" by this means. Neither was He connecting any kind of sinful activity with His warning to nursing mothers.

JulieB67 · Jul 20, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
so that you can declare that with confidence?

I am 100 percent confident these verses have not happened -

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Every eye shall see him.

Acts 3:20 "And He shall send Jesus Christ, Which before was preached unto you:"

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

So yes, it would have been impossible for him to have returned in 70 AD. That was not the restitution of all things, far from it.

3 Resurrections said:
I think you are over the edge with your symbolism

Our Father and Christ use much symbolism when it comes to the bride, us being pure virgins, etc. Why the use of virgin? Where is the symbolism of being a pure virgin? It can only have one meaning. So speaking spiritually it would work the same.

3 Resurrections said:
If "falling away" is becoming "spiritually pregnant" with false doctrine,

Falling away is departing from the truth. Meaning these people had the truth at one point. Example-

Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works'.

Another example are the foolish virgins, they are waiting on the bridegroom. Meaning they are Christians. It stands to reason that's because many will fall away and worship another God proclaiming to be God. They will believe this God to be the savior only it will be the fake. And why would they fall away and do that? Because some don't believe that Satan and his angels will be here first. They believe the true Christ come first. Or others don't belive there will even be a tribulation where that occurs. And it's God that sends the strong delusion. We have to remain a spiritual virgin.

But I'm getting way OT.....

3 Resurrections · Jul 20, 2023

JulieB67 said:
Every eye shall see him.

You aren't reading the language carefully enough in Revelation 1:7, which was a duplicate of the prophecy in Zechariah 12:9-14 That was NOT a prediction of "every eye" across the entire globe seeing Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives. It was specifically every eye of "THOSE WHO PIERCED HIM". It would be the "TRIBES of the earth", or the tribes of the land of Israel who would mourn when they saw the bodily returning Christ.

These "Tribes of the earth" mourning "IN JERUSALEM" was not talking about Amazonian tribes, or the Inuit, etc. Those were specifically members of Jewish tribes. Hint: today we do not have in existence any more those tribal families Zechariah 12:11-14 mentioned that would be doing this mourning in Jerusalem at Christ's return - namely, the family of David, Nathan, Levi, and Shimei which Zechariah listed for us. Israel's archived genealogical records of the tribes were burned up in the city of Jerusalem by the time AD 70 was over, as God intended.

JulieB67 said:
Our Father and Christ use much symbolism when it comes to the bride, us being pure virgins, etc. Why the use of virgin? Where is the symbolism of being a pure virgin? It can only have one meaning. So speaking spiritually it would work the same.

Can you please address my question of why Christ would also warn against having nursing mothers in those "Days of Vengeance"? What would be the particular evil you would want to connect with the supposed symbolism of a nursing mother? Nursing mothers are portrayed very favorably in scripture.

If you are going to always connect someone being pregnant with that person losing their "spiritual virginity" by falling into false doctrine, then what evil would you be connecting with the supposed symbolism of those nursing mothers? And pregnancy is not evil in and of itself. Contrariwise, the fruit of the womb is called "God's reward". You are going to great lengths to get rid of Christ's very plain language about the very practical risks involved in those coming days for literally pregnant women heavy with child, and those who would be nursing young babies in those times of distress coming in that first-century generation.

JulieB67 · Jul 21, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
Can you please address my question of why Christ would also warn against having nursing mothers in those "Days of Vengeance"?

You refuse to see this in a spiritual sense.

Luke 23:29 "For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.' "

You only need to read further to see that it is talking about the end of days/tribulation.

Luke 23:30 "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, `Fall on us; and to the hills, `Cover us.'

This definitely ties into this -

Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The great day of his wrath was not 70 AD. It's not happened yet. We are talking affliction that has never been nor will ever be. Past and future so 70 AD does not cover it.

Mark 13:12 "Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death."

Not 70 AD

Mark 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

We are talking Christ's name sake, so most definitely not 70AD

And it goes on....

Mark 13:17 "But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!"

Mark 13:18 "And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter."

Mark 13:19 "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be."

Why do people not realize the true implication of this last verse. What you're stating is that 70 AD is the worst affliction of all time. Past, present, future. We now know that's not possible. And we've already established that brother will betray brother and children against parents. And people will be hated for Christ's name. That was not 70 AD. And since it wasn't 70AD we are talking the end days. And since a nursing mother as most think to be a blessing this has to be meant in a spiritual sense.

Mark 13:20 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom He hath chose, He hath shortened the days."

Mark 13:21 "And then if any man shall say to you, `Lo, here is Christ; or, `Lo, He is there;' believe him not."

Mark 13:22 "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect."

Again, this has nothing to do with 70AD. We are talking seducing even the elect with signs and wonders if it were possible. Nothing to do with the seige of Jersalem. This relates to this,

Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."
[it was given him]

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Again, there was no signs and wonders and miracles performed in the seige of Jersalem.

And then it goes on to describe the coming of Christ after the tribulation of those days. Same as Matthew 24.

Sorry to be getting way OT again of your OP David...

3 Resurrections · Jul 21, 2023

JulieB67 said:
Luke 23:29 "For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.' "

You only need to read further to see that it is talking about the end of days/tribulation.

Of course it is. It was the end of days that 1 Peter 4:7 announced was then at hand in his time. "The end of all things is at hand" Peter said.

JulieB67 said:
Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

The great day of his wrath was not 70 AD. It's not happened yet. We are talking affliction that has never been nor will ever be. Past and future so 70 AD does not cover it.

You need to hone in on that little phrase "the kings of the earth" who were included in this perilous time who were going to be hiding in the dens and the rocks of the mountains. Do you realize what those "kings of the earth" are? According to scripture's own use of the term, the "kings of the earth" were the high priests of the land of Israel. Hint: there haven't been any high priests serving since the destruction of the city and the temple in AD 70. Therefore, this prediction does not apply to ANY time period following that AD 70 time.

There was (and still is) a maze of underground caves, cisterns, and tunnels below the Old City of Jerusalem, which Josephus testified was honeycombed with such places for those in Jerusalem to attempt hiding from the Romans when they finally got into the city. Literal fulfillment.
And the particular type of tribulation "such as" happened during those days from AD 66-70 actually had never occurred before then and has never occurred since. That kind of tribulation was the ENTIRE Satanic realm which became imprisoned within the city of Jerusalem to oppress its besieged inhabitants.

Christ had predicted in Matthew 12:43-45 that the wicked generation from whom He had been casting out devils would in their "last state" have those same devils return in seven-fold numbers more wicked than the nation's "first state" when He had been among them. No nation or city since then ever has or ever will experience that same type of tribulation period. You are looking for numerical body counts, and that wasn't the particular type of tribulation "such as" never had been or ever would be again. Christ was using a different criteria than just an ultimate level of bloodshed to rank this unprecedented "Great tribulation" period.

JulieB67 said:
Revelation 13:13 "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men."
[it was given him]

Revelation 13:14 "And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Again, there was no signs and wonders and miracles performed in the seige of Jersalem.

Scripture never said these Revelation 13 "wonders" would take place during the siege of Jerusalem. This is simply describing the role of the corrupt high priesthood in Christ's days who were responsible for the fires burning perpetually on the altar; a fire which had originally been kindled by God's fire from heaven. They were performing those high priestly functions in the very eyesight of the Roman Sea Beast whose Roman troops were garrisoned in the Fortress of Antonia overseeing the activity in the temple across the way.

Those "miracles" which the corrupt religious leadership did in Jerusalem were the fake exorcisms of which Christ accused them in Matthew 12:27. Similar to those seven sons of Sceva, a chief of the priests, who were called "exorcists" in Acts 19:13-14, but were attacked by the demons they were attempting to cast out.

JulieB67 said:
And we've already established that brother will betray brother and children against parents. And people will be hated for Christ's name. That was not 70 AD.

Christ announced that this very type of family division was beginning while His earthly ministry was ongoing. Look at Luke 12:52. "For FROM HENCEFORTH there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law." The disciples and followers of Christ were hated very much by the Jewish religious leadership who imprisoned, beat them in the synagogues, and put them on trial before the Sanhedrin, as Christ predicted. The book of Acts is saturated with this theme, as well as the epistles. This persecution would only intensify until the Zealot rebellion in AD 66 distracted the Jewish leadership from attacking the believers. And Nero's Roman holocaust against the Christians following the AD 64 fire at Rome until his suicide death in AD 68 was yet another enemy of the faith.

Also, if you have never read very much about the Zealot factions which were simmering during Christ's earthly ministry and afterward, you would realize that this Zealot cause very much pitted family members against one another. The Zealots' nationalistic fervor would not tolerate anyone who was in sympathy with the Romans. They would steal from, kill, or persecute anyone of their own nation who did not support their cause of exterminating Roman governance from their nation. This animosity grew in intensity until the Zealot rebellion against Rome broke out in AD 66.

JulieB67 · Jul 24, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
Also, if you have never read very much about the Zealot factions which were simmering during Christ's earthly ministry and afterward, you would realize that this Zealot cause very much pitted family members against one another. The Zealots' nationalistic fervor would not tolerate anyone who was in sympathy with the Romans. They would steal from, kill, or persecute anyone of their own nation who did not support their cause of exterminating Roman governance from their nation. This animosity grew in intensity until the Zealot rebellion against Rome broke out in AD 66.

Again, none of these afflictions can be considered the worst of all time. Past, present and future. But believe what you will....

3 Resurrections · Jul 24, 2023

JulieB67 said:
Again, none of these afflictions can be considered the worst of all time. Past, present and future. But believe what you will...

You are putting the wrong word into the description of this "Great Tribulation". Scripture never uses the word "worst" when describing it. Scripture says there never had, and would never be afterward a tribulation "SUCH AS" that tribulation. That meant it was going to be a particular unique TYPE of tribulation that would never be duplicated again in times future to that.

This unique TYPE of tribulation included the imprisonment of every unclean spirit within the walls of Jerusalem for the duration of its destructive period from AD 66-70. Christ had promised this in Matthew 12:43-45, and it was also predicted in Isaiah 24:21-23 and in Revelation 18:2. Every unclean spirit which Christ had cast out of those people during their "first state" while He was among them would return in seven-fold numbers more wicked than before during that wicked generation's "last state". The number seven is usually indicative of something complete or entire.

No nation or city had ever experienced this complete saturation of demonic oppression by the entire Satanic realm before then, and it would never happen again after that first-century generation had passed. This brought untold suffering to the inhabitants who were unfortunate enough to be shut up in the city of Jerusalem for the duration of that "great tribulation" period.

Zao is life · Jul 24, 2023

DavidPT said:
Maybe we are somewhat on the same page in regards to some of this since I too see Matthew 24:15-26 involving falling away. Those that don't spiritually flee they fall away. Those that do spiritually flee, they don't. Right or wrong, that's basically how I reason it. Especially since I'm convinced that Matthew 24:15-26 is involving some of 2 Thessalonians 2, and that we are already told in verse 3 there will be a great falling away. And then if we factor in 2 Thessalonians 2:9-- the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders--that appears to fit verses 23-26 in Matthew 24. Except some interpreters are too busy trying to make square pegs fit in round holes by forcing Matthew 24:15-26 to fit the first century and 70 AD that they don't even notice some of these other things and how they are a better fit instead, thus round pegs and round holes.

I noticed this below but not even I know if there is anything in what I noticed:

Saints around the world are told to come out of Babylon the Great, just as God's people who remained in Babylon centuries B.C were told to come out of Babylon when its judgment was close.

There seems to be a pattern here. That's all I can say.

DavidPT · Jul 24, 2023

3 Resurrections said:
You are putting the wrong word into the description of this "Great Tribulation". Scripture never uses the word "worst" when describing it. Scripture says there never had, and would never be afterward a tribulation "SUCH AS" that tribulation. That meant it was going to be a particular unique TYPE of tribulation that would never be duplicated again in times future to that.

This unique TYPE of tribulation included the imprisonment of every unclean spirit within the walls of Jerusalem for the duration of its destructive period from AD 66-70. Christ had promised this in Matthew 12:43-45, and it was also predicted in Isaiah 24:21-23 and in Revelation 18:2. Every unclean spirit which Christ had cast out of those people during their "first state" while He was among them would return in seven-fold numbers more wicked than before during that wicked generation's "last state". The number seven is usually indicative of something complete or entire.

No nation or city had ever experienced this complete saturation of demonic oppression by the entire Satanic realm before then, and it would never happen again after that first-century generation had passed. This brought untold suffering to the inhabitants who were unfortunate enough to be shut up in the city of Jerusalem for the duration of that "great tribulation" period.

What happened in the first century involving 70 AD was obviously connected with the wrath of God at the time. Yet, great tribulation recorded in Matthew 24 is not the wrath of God nor is it the day of the Lord. Both come after great tribulation, not during it. That is plain to see per the following, for example.

A) Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

B) Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

C) Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled

D) Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

E) Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

F) Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

G) Revelation 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

H) Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

A, C(meaning what I have underlined in C) above), E and G, these all involve great tribulation and are fulfiiled before the wrath of God commences.

B, D, F and H, these all involve the wrath of God and are fulfiiled afterr great tribultion finishes.

Take A) and B), for instance. Is anyone going to dispute that B) is fulfilled after A)?

Next take C) and D). Is anyone going to dispute that D) is fulfilled after C)?

Next take E) and F). Is anyone going to dispute that F) is fulfilled after E)?

And finally, take G) and H). Is anyone going to dispute that H) is fulfilled after G)?

Is anyone going to argue that B, D, F and H do not involve the wrath of God?

Obviously then, the pattern throughout both Matthew 24 and the passages I submitted via Revelation, great tribulation comes first, the wrath of God follows after that. Therefore, great tribulation and the wrath of God are not the same events. Not to mention, the wrath of God involves the day of the Lord, therefore, great tribulation doesn't involve the day of the Lord either. The day of the Lord involves darkness, exactly what is depicted in both Matthew 24:29 and Revelation 6 and the 6th seal. And that Matthew 24:29 proves that the 6th seal is meaning after great tribulation.

Even though what happened to unbelieving Jews in the first century pertaining to 70 AD, involved the wrath of God, that still can't be meaning great tribulation when I already demonstrated above, great tribulation comes first, the wrath of God follows, and below, that thlipsis is something professed saints experience, not something unbelieving Jews experience. Obviously, there is a difference between great tribulation and the wrath of God since the latter follows after, and is not paralleling the former instead.

The Greek word for tribulation is thlipsis. If one takes the time to look how that same Greek word is used in other passages, it appears to mainly be involving something a professed saint experiences, not what unbelieving Jews experience. To apply thlipsis to first century unbelieving Jews is ludicrous.

DavidPT · Jul 24, 2023

Fullness of the Gentiles said:
I noticed this below but not even I know if there is anything in what I noticed:
View attachment 333742
Saints around the world are told to come out of Babylon the Great, just as God's people who remained in Babylon centuries B.C were told to come out of Babylon when its judgment was close.

There seems to be a pattern here. That's all I can say.

Do you see Matthew 24:15-20 having a connection with Revelation 18:4? I might reason these things like such myself. Obviously, per the latter, none of that is meaning in a literal sense, that His people are to flee out of a literal city in the Middle East. That doesn't make sense in the 21st century, that there could be this literal city and that one needs to flee out of it. If this fleeing doesn't have to be literal, as in involving fleeing out of a literal city, why does it have to be literal in Matthew 24:15-20?

Obviously, if Matthew 24:15-20 is involving the first century and 70 AD, one then should take the fleeing literally, that they are fleeing out of a literal city in the Middle East. But if Matthew 24:15-20 is involving the final days of this age, why does it have to be involving fleeing a literal city when Revelation 18:4 is also involving the final days of this age, and is also involving fleeing from a city, except it's not meaning that in a literal sense?

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Two aspects of the coming of Christ recorded in Matthew 24.

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

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