Swatch LGBT Watches Seized in Malaysia - Swatch wants them back

IceJad · Jul 17, 2023

Actually I'm not sure what Swatch was expecting. If you do business in another nation, you're bound by their societal norms and laws there. My country Malaysia is none to "gracious" to open displays of LGBT. That is no secret. That's why for most LGBT Malaysians they keep a low profile. Is it ideal? No, but it what it is.

To openly promote LGBT is asking for trouble. So is it any of a surprise Swatch LGBT watches got confiscated. The fact that they got away with it in previous years does not mean that the government is okay with it. Just so you know Malaysia is 60 - 65% Muslim. They are also quite religious.

One may see it as standing up for the minority LGBT in Malaysia. However the flip side will see it as a disrespect of local customs and sensitivities. What you feel really depends on which side of the fence you're on. But one thing is for certain, it was a foolish move. Malaysians are not ignorant of what is happening in the west. You can bet every last penny that we know of the "displays" in the Pride Marches.

I'm not seeing any chance that Swatch's filing going anywhere. To make things worst for themselves, they have gotten into the radar of the authorities. They will definitely find it harder to import their watches into Malaysia even if the models are not LGBT ones.

RocksInMyHead · Jul 17, 2023

IceJad said:
Actually I'm not sure what Swatch was expecting. If you do business in another nation, you're bound by their societal norms and laws there.

Nobody is bound by societal norms. It's generally a good idea to follow them, lest you face social consequences, but there are no legal consequences for violating them unless they're codified into law. Is the sale of LGBT-themed merchandise prohibited by law in Malaysia?

DaisyDay · Jul 17, 2023

Colored wrist bands are illegal in Malaysia?

durangodawood · Jul 17, 2023

RocksInMyHead said:
Nobody is bound by societal norms. It's generally a good idea to follow them, lest you face social consequences, but there are no legal consequences for violating them unless they're codified into law. Is the sale of LGBT-themed merchandise prohibited by law in Malaysia?

Some governments will confiscate private property on an arbitrary basis, or based on ad hoc rationales. Not sure if we should call those "legal" consequences.

RocksInMyHead · Jul 17, 2023

durangodawood said:
Some governments will confiscate private property on an arbitrary basis, or based on ad hoc rationales. Not sure if we should call those "legal" consequences.

That was kind of my point - unless there are laws against the selling of LGBT merchandise in Malaysia, this would appear to be straight-up theft.

IceJad · Jul 17, 2023

RocksInMyHead said:
Nobody is bound by societal norms. It's generally a good idea to follow them, lest you face social consequences, but there are no legal consequences for violating them unless they're codified into law. Is the sale of LGBT-themed merchandise prohibited by law in Malaysia?

Take a guess. I also hope you know that there are two systems of law in Malaysia the federal law (applicable to all) and the sharia law (only to muslims). However the two often overlap when there are issues legal in one and illegal in the other. So to ask me on the legality is like asking if the cat is alive or dead in Schrodinger box. Until the courts rule on it, both states are considered valid.

But by and large if you see the general sentiment, even if it is legal the vast majority wouldn't be pleased. It's a gamble if you wish to go against that sentiment. You have to be very sure that your core customers don't belong in the group you just ticked off.

LGBT rights in Malaysia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

IceJad · Jul 17, 2023

DaisyDay said:
Colored wrist bands are illegal in Malaysia?

Colored wrist bands are not illegal in Malaysia, LGBT ones are (at least in one expression of the law). It is very simple to identify them because the makers actually make it obvious what the intended message is.

If you have a solid color band with a small rainbow somewhere, people get the message. We Malaysians are not ignorant and neither is Swatch subtle. Perception and pattern recognition are two of the most valuable skills humans have.

If there is a cross on a building you can at least be very sure that it is Christian related like a crescent moon and star represent Islam. If I see a rainbow pattern merchandise in around the months of June or July, I can gander with a high degree of accuracy that it is pride related.

IceJad · Jul 17, 2023

durangodawood said:
Some governments will confiscate private property on an arbitrary basis, or based on ad hoc rationales. Not sure if we should call those "legal" consequences.

I'm not in the legal profession, you're most welcome to read up on the legal framework of my country. It would be discourteous to just think a system is arbitrary and have little check and balance without first knowing the details.

Just so you know our current government is not the same one as the previous nor the previous the same as the one before. While our democracy is not the shining glory of the world, we are no where near the bottom of the barrel. And to be frank neither is the US a shining glory of democracy.

RocksInMyHead · Jul 18, 2023

IceJad said:
Take a guess. I also hope you know that there are two systems of law in Malaysia the federal law (applicable to all) and the sharia law (only to muslims). However the two often overlap when there are issues legal in one and illegal in the other. So to ask me on the legality is like asking if the cat is alive or dead in Schrodinger box. Until the courts rule on it, both states are considered valid.

Obviously, the Malaysian courts will decide whether or not this seizure was legal, but I find it curious that you would celebrate it if you're unaware of any laws that would ban the sale of this type of merchandise, because that would mean that the police are arbitrarily confiscating private property based on personal whims.

IceJad said:
But by and large if you see the general sentiment, even if it is legal the vast majority wouldn't be pleased. It's a gamble if you wish to go against that sentiment. You have to be very sure that your core customers don't belong in the group you just ticked off.

Of course. I would assume that that's a calculation that Swatch made when deciding to market those items in Malaysia. But ticking off customers (or potential customers) generally does not result in the police seizing your products or - as you hinted - the government making it more difficult for you to do business in the country entirely.

durangodawood · Jul 18, 2023

IceJad said:
I'm not in the legal profession, you're most welcome to read up on the legal framework of my country. It would be discourteous to just think a system is arbitrary and have little check and balance without first knowing the details.

Just so you know our current government is not the same one as the previous nor the previous the same as the one before. While our democracy is not the shining glory of the world, we are no where near the bottom of the barrel. And to be frank neither is the US a shining glory of democracy.

I just thought since its your country and your thread, you might be interested to know whether this seizure was arbitrary or not. Youre certainly in a better position to know than I am.

DaisyDay · Jul 18, 2023

IceJad said:
And to be frank neither is the US a shining glory of democracy.

Many right wingers have started to insist that the United States is not a democracy at all.

Desk trauma · Jul 18, 2023

RocksInMyHead said:
Obviously, the Malaysian courts will decide whether or not this seizure was legal, but I find it curious that you would celebrate it if you're unaware of any laws that would ban the sale of this type of merchandise, because that would mean that the police are arbitrarily confiscating private property based on personal whims.

Being on this forum has shown me that anything is ok so long as it targets the gays.

IceJad · Jul 18, 2023

RocksInMyHead said:
Obviously, the Malaysian courts will decide whether or not this seizure was legal, but I find it curious that you would celebrate it if you're unaware of any laws that would ban the sale of this type of merchandise, because that would mean that the police are arbitrarily confiscating private property based on personal whims.

Celebrate? No it is not happiness I'm feeling rather it's catharsis. The acceptance of me finally releasing my lingering attachment of my own illusion of a once noble cause. Akin to how some people feel to discarding their religion. I'm done supporting anything LGBT after disappointment on top of disappointment as I see the community in the west go from wanting acceptance to enforcing compliance and sexual degeneracy. I think I have declared this in some other thread.

I have been on this forum for a very very long time. You may check my profile. If you're to look back at some of my early posts, you'll find a very moderate and LGBT supportive person. Now it is a different story. I'm not going to let my nation turn into what the west looks like now. But that's just me.

Now for the legality of the confiscation. Is it legal? I don't know for sure. But in Malaysia homosexual act is by the letter of the law illegal. So it is not a stretch any items that promote or relate to homosexuality would be as well. Therefore it doesn't matter if an item is of private ownership, as long as the law interprets it as illegal, the authorities are legally able to take or destroy the item. There is nothing arbitrary about it.

We are not a lawless nation. Our laws are still based on the British common law. Seeing as they were our once colonial masters. While we have made some changes and add upon it, the main framework is very much intact.

I'm not a lawyer by profession. I know the basics of the law (enough to know the broad stokes of legality) but anything more complex it is better you read for yourself.

RocksInMyHead said:
Of course. I would assume that that's a calculation that Swatch made when deciding to market those items in Malaysia. But ticking off customers (or potential customers) generally does not result in the police seizing your products or - as you hinted - the government making it more difficult for you to do business in the country entirely.

I doubt Swatch Malaysia made a calculated risk. Rather feels like testing of the societal tolerance level - slowly boiling a frog and see when it will jump out. If you're Swatch operating in a Muslim majority country, is there any business justification to sell items in direct contradiction to the religious teaching? Or if you're Swatch Japan would you sell a watch with an atomic mushroom to commemorate the Allied victory? Even if the nations have freedom of speech laws, you'll find that there are also laws prohibiting offensive materials. Just because something is not offensive in the west doesn't mean it's the same in other places.

IceJad · Jul 19, 2023

DaisyDay said:
Many right wingers have started to insist that the United States is not a democracy at all.

And they may have a slimer of truth. Not too long ago the US was considered a full democracy under the Democracy index. Now the US is considered a flawed democracy same as my nation. While the US is far from being authoritarian, your numbers are slipping steadily. While one might blame Trump for the rating dip, surprisingly the numbers dipped further under now Biden.

Before you say I'm of right wing adjacent, I have proof. I'm neither supportive of the right nor left in the west. I'm only pointing out the truth.

The Economist Democracy Index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Pommer · Jul 19, 2023

IceJad said:
I'm done supporting anything LGBT after disappointment on top of disappointment as I see the community in the west go from wanting acceptance to enforcing compliance and sexual degeneracy.

It was fine when they just wanted to be themselves but now it’s bad because they insist on being themselves out in public?

IceJad · Jul 19, 2023

Pommer said:
It was fine when they just wanted to be themselves but now it’s bad because they insist on being themselves out in public?

Because that is not the whole truth is it? I'm very sure you're aware of how public institutes like schools are forcing participation upon all. Please don't leave out the more unsavory parts. And the unsavory parts are not outliers either, aren't they? There are just too many others to list because that would be a topic for a mega thread. So for now let's leave it at - it's beyond just personal expression.

Pommer · Jul 19, 2023

IceJad said:
Because that is not the whole truth is it? I'm very sure you're aware of how public institutes like schools are forcing participation upon all. Please don't leave out the more unsavory parts. And the unsavory parts are not outliers either, aren't they? There are just too many others to list because that would be a topic for a mega thread. So for now let's leave it at - it's beyond just personal expression.

But that was always going to be the upshot of gaining public acceptance: being much more “visible”.
I’m sure gay kids had an awful, rough time in school because it wasn’t acceptable in years gone by.
Now it is, and gay kids can self-identify earlier without as much to fear; they’ll need to have support within their schools, that why we get gay-activists in the schools.

Any notion that activists “turn” people gay, suggests a lack of personal self-reflection.

IceJad · Jul 19, 2023

Desk trauma said:
Being on this forum has shown me that anything is ok so long as it targets the gays.

Surprising because being on this forum, I find people agreeing to anything as long as it's from the gays. Perceptions I guess.

Page Poet · Aug 4, 2023

The officers of the Malasian state want to keep homosexual influences out of their territory.

ThatRobGuy · Aug 4, 2023

DaisyDay said:
Many right wingers have started to insist that the United States is not a democracy at all.

I think the "We're not a democracy, we're a republic" talking point has been around quite a while.

I recall it being used by GOP pundits for as long as I can remember whenever there's a case where a republican loses the popular vote but wins the electoral college, or when discussing the disproportionate house rep numbers for certain states. (like when Pennsylvania had such heavily gerrymandered districts that despite the state having more Democrats than Republicans, the Republicans had more US House seats)

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Swatch LGBT Watches Seized in Malaysia - Swatch wants them back

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