Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

Red Gold · Jul 16, 2023

Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

Here is the case:

Swedish activist backs off Bible burning in Stockholm

Swedish national Ahmed Alloush says he never planned to go through with the burning of holy Jewish texts and wanted to make sure authorities weren't selectively enforcing laws

Swedish activist backs off Bible burning in Stockholm

Swedish national Ahmed Alloush says he never planned to go through with the burning of holy Jewish texts and wanted to make sure authorities weren't selectively enforcing laws

www.ynetnews.com

Red Gold · Jul 16, 2023

Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

now 3 say yes
and 1 says no

Desk trauma · Jul 16, 2023

Red Gold · Jul 16, 2023

now:

5 x yes
1 x no

PloverWing · Jul 16, 2023

In the US, this is considered free speech and is protected by our First Amendment to the Constitution. It's horrible speech, but it's legally protected. This BBC article (Why US government could not have stopped the Koran bonfire) has a good description of how the US views speech, and how we differ from a number of other Western democracies on this.

There are limits. If I steal your sacred object and burn it, that's illegal theft. If I burn your temple, that's illegal arson. If I burn a cross in front of your house, that's an illegal threat of violence, because of that act's particular history with the KKK. But if I buy a sacred object at a store and burn it on my own property, that's horrible, but it's protected speech in the US.

Red Gold · Jul 16, 2023

PloverWing said:
In the US, this is considered free speech and is protected by our First Amendment to the Constitution. It's horrible speech, but it's legally protected.

speech?

I think setting fire to sth. is not speech

Desk trauma · Jul 16, 2023

Red Gold said:
speech?

I think setting fire to sth. is not speech

Are other symbolic acts also not speech in your view or just the burning of holy books?

PloverWing · Jul 16, 2023

Red Gold said:
speech?

I think setting fire to sth. is not speech

The US Supreme Court thinks that burning a US Flag is a form of symbolic speech and thus is protected under the First Amendment. (Texas v Johnson, 1989, Texas v. Johnson - Wikipedia)

I don't know of a Supreme Court case involving the burning of sacred objects or books, but I think the law would view it similarly to flag-burning, especially since the flag is an oddly sacred object in US culture.

Red Gold · Jul 16, 2023

PloverWing said:
The US Supreme Court thinks that burning a US Flag is a form of symbolic speech and thus is protected under the First Amendment. (Texas v Johnson, 1989, Texas v. Johnson - Wikipedia)

I don't know of a Supreme Court case involving the burning of sacred objects or books, but I think the law would view it similarly to flag-burning, especially since the flag is an oddly sacred object in US culture.

But referring to a girl by "she" and a boy by "he" can be seen as a crime that may cost you your job?

Desk trauma · Jul 16, 2023

Red Gold said:
But referring to a girl by "she" and a boy by "he" can be seen as a crime that may cost you your job?

The first amendment is a restraint on the government.

chevyontheriver · Jul 16, 2023

Red Gold said:
Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

Is arson free speech?

Desk trauma · Jul 16, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
Is arson free speech?

Nope. Burning books that you own is.

Chesterton · Jul 16, 2023

Here's the full Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of the word "speech":

1a : the communication or expression of thoughts in spoken words

b: exchange of spoken words : CONVERSATION

2a : something that is spoken : UTTERANCE

b: a usually public discourse : ADDRESS

3a: LANGUAGE, DIALECT

b: an individual manner or style of speaking

4: the power of expressing or communicating thoughts by speaking

You'll notice there's no mention of anything being burnt. I recall a case in my state in the '80's where a city tried to shut down a strip club, and our Supreme Court said dancing naked was "speech", which just proves that people in positions of power are sometimes illiterate and stupid.

Having said that, as a Christian I would have no problem with anyone burning a Bible. It has no effect on anything other than to make the person doing the burning look like a hateful jerk.

PloverWing · Jul 16, 2023

Red Gold said:
But referring to a girl by "she" and a boy by "he" can be seen as a crime that may cost you your job?

The workplace is a special situation. The US has a collection of laws that protect employees' rights in the workplace so that they can go to work and feel safe from harassment and discrimination. So, in my private life I can yell or post or preach that I think people of ethnic/religious/gender group X are awful, and that's protected speech, but if I deliberately and repeatedly insult my colleagues at work because they belong to group X, I'll probably be fired. The difference, I think, is that in my private life, people can just walk away from me and not listen to my insults; but at work, they can't walk away from me and still be doing their job, so my insults at work have crossed a line into directly harming another person.

jayem · Aug 6, 2023

Getting back to reality…

My municipality has an ordinance prohibiting setting fire to yard waste, garbage, and trash. I’m sure books, magazines, newspapers, junk mail, and other such paper items would be included.

When I have books I don’t want, that only take up shelf space, I donate them to Goodwill.

Blaise N · Aug 11, 2023

Red Gold said:
Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

Here is the case:

Swedish activist backs off Bible burning in Stockholm

Swedish activist backs off Bible burning in Stockholm

Swedish national Ahmed Alloush says he never planned to go through with the burning of holy Jewish texts and wanted to make sure authorities weren't selectively enforcing laws

www.ynetnews.com

When you burn the Koran, you’re burning a man made apostates book.

When you burn the Torah, you’re insulting Gods Old Testament and essentially making yourself look like a Nazi.

When you burn the Bible ,you’re literally playing with fire and committing a dangerous act of blasphemy ,which although is forgivable ,is deeply hurtful and saddening to the Holy Spirit.

Tinker Grey · Aug 11, 2023

Blaise N said:
When you burn the Koran, you’re burning a man made apostates book.

When you burn the Torah, you’re insulting Gods Old Testament and essentially making yourself look like a Nazi.

When you burn the Bible ,you’re literally playing with fire and committing a dangerous act of blasphemy ,which although is forgivable ,is deeply hurtful and saddening to the Holy Spirit.

The Bible, in any given instantiation, is a collection of paper with words on it. A god may or may not have anything to do with it, but a god should have thicker skin than to be upset that a wee finite being was throwing a tantrum

2nd, you're using the word apostate wrong.

3rd, Muslims think you're just as wrong as you think they are.

I'm not impressed.

Blaise N · Aug 11, 2023

Tinker Grey said:
The Bible, in any given instantiation, is a collection of paper with words on it. A god may or may not have anything to do with it, but a god should have thicker skin than to be upset that a wee finite being was throwing a tantrum

2nd, you're using the word apostate wrong.

3rd, Muslims think you're just as wrong as you think they are.

I'm not impressed.

My intention isn’t to impress,my intention is to state the facts.

You burn the Quran(Koran) you’re burning a Santanic-false book,which in a way is beneficial.

You burn the Torah or Bible you’re basically hurting the lords heart.

My intention isn’t to threaten or scare,but to help others understand the hurt it causes.
It’s not free speech,it’s hate speech.

Tinker Grey · Aug 11, 2023

Blaise N said:
My intention isn’t to impress,my intention is to state the facts.

You burn the Quran(Koran) you’re burning a Santanic-false book,which in a way is beneficial.

false. It's just a book.

You burn the Torah or Bible you’re basically hurting the lords heart.

False. An infinite being, if it exists, cannot be hurt.

My intention isn’t to threaten or scare,but to help others understand the hurt it causes.
It’s not free speech,it’s hate speech.

Free speech and hate speech can overlap. And, burning a Bible to express my disappointment in the church and its policies is protest, protected, and not hate speech.

Blaise N · Aug 11, 2023

Tinker Grey said:
false. It's just a book.

False. An infinite being, if it exists, cannot be hurt.

Free speech and hate speech can overlap. And, burning a Bible to express my disappointment in the church and its policies is protest, protected, and not hate speech.

God can be hurt,he is completely capable of experiencing emotions such as sadness,anger,happiness,etc.

Two the Bible isn’t “just a book” it’s Gods living words recorded into a delightful and amazing book!

And yes,free speech is allowed,there are boundaries that cannot be crossed,and burning a Bible is a major insult.

Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

Burning the Bible or the Torah or the Koran - is this an example for free speech?

yes

no

don't know

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