Abortion accidents where the baby is still alive

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

What is the right thing to do if a woman requests an abortion but during the procedure the baby ends up outside of her body and still alive? If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce, and the baby is offered treatment as with any other live birth, has the woman's right to reproduce been violated?

Somewhat related:
If technology progresses to the place where a baby/collection of cells* can be removed early and implanted in another woman (or a bonobo?), would that affect the ethics of killing the organism in utero as opposed to extracting it and implanting it? Or the woman's right to reproduce (or not)?

*Attempting to use neutral terms

** I believe abortion is wrong in nearly all cases but hopefully the thread won't become a generic abortion thread

Mark Quayle · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
What is the right thing to do if a woman requests an abortion but during the procedure the baby ends up outside of her body and still alive? If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce, and the baby is offered treatment as with any other live birth, has the woman's right to reproduce been violated?

Somewhat related:
If technology progresses to the place where a baby/collection of cells* can be removed early and implanted in another woman (or a bonobo?), would that affect the ethics of killing the organism in utero as opposed to extracting it and implanting it? Or the woman's right to reproduce (or not)?

*Attempting to use neutral terms

** I believe abortion is wrong in nearly all cases but hopefully the thread won't become a generic abortion thread

Where does a "woman's right to reproduce" involve infanticide? If she has a right NOT to reproduce, she herself suspended (or violated) that right, months earlier.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Where does a "woman's right to reproduce" involve infanticide? If she has a right NOT to reproduce, she herself suspended (or violated) that right, months earlier.

Well, that's why I phrased it as a question, "If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce...".

But suppose she was raped. Is she required to have her genetic material mixed with the rapist's in the forming of a new human?

biblelesson · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
What is the right thing to do if a woman requests an abortion but during the procedure the baby ends up outside of her body and still alive? If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce, and the baby is offered treatment as with any other live birth, has the woman's right to reproduce been violated?

Somewhat related:
If technology progresses to the place where a baby/collection of cells* can be removed early and implanted in another woman (or a bonobo?), would that affect the ethics of killing the organism in utero as opposed to extracting it and implanting it? Or the woman's right to reproduce (or not)?

*Attempting to use neutral terms

** I believe abortion is wrong in nearly all cases but hopefully the thread won't become a generic abortion thread

I’m a little confused about the question because partial births abortions have been going on for a long time. Women who choose to abort their fetus are not opposed to this practice. So what right to choose? They have already chosen. Not sure about the question.

However, it is murder to abort a child this way. Even in the wound it’s murder.

What is partial-birth abortion?

Partial-birth abortion (PBA) is the term Congress has used to describe a procedure that crosses the line from abortion to infanticide. The doctor delivers a substantial portion of the living child outside his mother's body --- the entire head in a head-first delivery or the trunk past the navel in a feet-first delivery --- then kills the child by crushing his skull or removing his brain by suction.

Wings like Eagles · Jul 13, 2023

I dont want to sound abrupt or anything but, what about the baby's rights?

biblelesson · Jul 13, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Where does a "woman's right to reproduce" involve infanticide? If she has a right NOT to reproduce, she herself suspended (or violated) that right, months earlier.

Interesting question, so can I rephrase to see if I understand the question.

So, are you asking, do a woman’s right to reproduce includes an imbedded right to abort, or murder her fetus? However, if she has a right to Not reproduce also, then choosing to abort violates her the decision she could have rightfully made months before getting pregnant. Is this what you are saying?

If so, I think it’s an excellent question; this same point should be brought up in other forums, and discussed with a broader audience.

Aldebaran · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well, that's why I phrased it as a question, "If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce...".

But suppose she was raped. Is she required to have her genetic material mixed with the rapist's in the forming of a new human?

That obviously already happened, and the reproduction has already happened.
A baby existing is evidence of that. Killing the baby--whether inside or outside her body--doesn't change that.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

biblelesson said:
I’m a little confused about the question because partial births abortions have been going on for a long time. Women who choose to abort their fetus are not opposed to this practice. So what right to choose? They have already chosen. Not sure about the question.

However, it is murder to abort a child this way. Even in the wound it’s murder.

What is partial-birth abortion?
Partial-birth abortion (PBA) is the term Congress has used to describe a procedure that crosses the line from abortion to infanticide. The doctor delivers a substantial portion of the living child outside his mother's body --- the entire head in a head-first delivery or the trunk past the navel in a feet-first delivery --- then kills the child by crushing his skull or removing his brain by suction.

Interesting*, I didn't know that.

*and horrifying

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Wings like Eagles said:
I dont want to sound abrupt or anything but, what about the baby's rights?

Oh, I think the baby does have rights. That's why I think abortion is wrong in nearly all situations.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2023

Thinking about it further, I think maybe the questions I want to pose are more about what rights and obligations we have related to our genetic material.

Thanks for your time, Everyone, I may try again on a different thread

Mark Quayle · Jul 13, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well, that's why I phrased it as a question, "If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce...".

But suppose she was raped. Is she required to have her genetic material mixed with the rapist's in the forming of a new human?

She has no right, regardless of how it happened, to kill a human infant.

Mark Quayle · Jul 13, 2023

biblelesson said:
So, are you asking, do a woman’s right to reproduce includes an imbedded right to abort, or murder her fetus? However, if she has a right to Not reproduce also, then choosing to abort violates her the decision she could have rightfully made months before getting pregnant. Is this what you are saying?

yes

gaara4158 · Jul 14, 2023

biblelesson said:
I’m a little confused about the question because partial births abortions have been going on for a long time. Women who choose to abort their fetus are not opposed to this practice. So what right to choose? They have already chosen. Not sure about the question.

However, it is murder to abort a child this way. Even in the wound it’s murder.

What is partial-birth abortion?
Partial-birth abortion (PBA) is the term Congress has used to describe a procedure that crosses the line from abortion to infanticide. The doctor delivers a substantial portion of the living child outside his mother's body --- the entire head in a head-first delivery or the trunk past the navel in a feet-first delivery --- then kills the child by crushing his skull or removing his brain by suction.

How often and under what circumstances does this actually happen? It’s rare that a doctor ever agrees to a third term abortion, so it’s hard to imagine this is something that happens more than once in a decade or so.

biblelesson · Jul 14, 2023

gaara4158 said:
How often and under what circumstances does this actually happen? It’s rare that a doctor ever agrees to a third term abortion, so it’s hard to imagine this is something that happens more than once in a decade or so.

Each state must report to the CDC the number of abortions performed, and the term the abortion was performed at. Every year there is a small percentage of partial-birth abortions, or intact dilation and extraction. Most are done for medical reasons, but others are not. There are strict laws agains partial-birth abortions that went into place in the late 2000s, and if violated the doctor can go to jail. But they are being performed illegally every year throughout the US. These type of abortions are also being performed in other countries.

comana · Jul 14, 2023

biblelesson said:
Each state must report to the CDC the number of abortions performed, and the term the abortion was performed at. Every year there is a small percentage of partial-birth abortions, or intact dilation and extraction. Most are done for medical reasons, but others are not. There are strict laws agains partial-birth abortions that went into place in the late 2000s, and if violated the doctor can go to jail. But they are being performed illegally every year throughout the US. These type of abortions are also being performed in other countries.

Per the CDC website CDCs Abortion Surveillance System FAQs | CDC

Are states required to report abortion statistics?
No, states and areas voluntarily report data to CDC for inclusion in its annual Abortion Surveillance report. CDC’s Division of Reproductive Health prepares surveillance reports as data become available. There is no national requirement for data submission or reporting.

biblelesson · Jul 14, 2023

comana said:
Per the CDC website CDCs Abortion Surveillance System FAQs | CDC

Are states required to report abortion statistics?
No, states and areas voluntarily report data to CDC for inclusion in its annual Abortion Surveillance report. CDC’s Division of Reproductive Health prepares surveillance reports as data become available. There is no national requirement for data submission or reporting.

Thanks for this information. Although the CDC may not require reporting through its annual Abortion Surveillance reports, which is a federal government entity, the Federal Government leaves it up to the states to establish their own laws. In addition to those states requiring reporting, certain entities that perform abortions that are funded by the state and the federal government are required to report to the CDC. Additionally a recently proposed law will require the Secretary of Health and Human Services working through the CDC to mandate the collection of certain abortion data from all states.

Additionally, there are already laws enacted in different states throughout the country that’s constantly changing and updating,

Really the issue of abortion reporting require research due to the constant government and state changes throughout the years.

Here is information on State Abortion Laws where you can search each state’s reporting requirements collected by the CDC.

State Abortion Laws

This is a longitudinal legal data set describing state abortion laws in the 50 U.S. states from December 2018 and will be updated through 2020. This data set is part of a larger database tracking state abortion laws and covering 15 different areas of state abortion regulations

lawatlas.org

Here is mandatory reporting by states to the CDC;

Abortion Reporting

This is a rapidly shifting legal space in light of the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision. We are working to update this content, but for now, please be aware that this information may not be current. When exploring medical privacy issues, it's very useful to have an overview...

www.eff.org

“Most states that allow abortions require abortion facilities to report on abortions that they perform. These reports can hold sensitive information about people seeking abortion services, but who receives these reports and who has access to them later?”

“Generally, state departments of public health collect the reports, although in some states they may go to the department of vital statistics. Reporting this information to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) is not mandatory, but the majority of states do report. The CDC aggregates the data into annual Abortion Surveillance Reports.”

S. 15/H.R. 632 is a recent bill introduced requiring all state to report abortions:

Introduced in House (01/30/2023)

Ensuring Accurate and Complete Abortion Data Reporting Act of 2023

This bill requires states, as a condition of federal payment under Medicaid for family planning services, to report certain abortion data to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). (Currently, reporting is voluntary.) The CDC must develop standardized questions for states with respect to specified variables (e.g., maternal demographics and methods of abortion).

anetazo · Jul 20, 2023

Only God can take life. Abortion is moloch. Give the baby up for adoption. Hosea 13:16. Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; thier infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. God is against abortion.
Everyone must be born one time in the flesh body, to decide to follow satan or Jesus. The fetus is being robbed of this. Get the picture. Its moloch !.
Leviticus 18:21. And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through fire to moloch, neither shalt thou Profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord. Israel picked up heathen child sacrifice from heathen nations. It's a abomination to God. Today it's called Abortion.

Leaf473 · Jul 21, 2023

anetazo said:
Only God can take life. Abortion is moloch. Give the baby up for adoption. Hosea 13:16. Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; thier infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up. God is against abortion.
Everyone must be born one time in the flesh body, to decide to follow satan or Jesus. The fetus is being robbed of this. Get the picture. Its moloch !.
Leviticus 18:21. And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through fire to moloch, neither shalt thou Profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord. Israel picked up heathen child sacrifice from heathen nations. It's a abomination to God. Today it's called Abortion.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

jayem · Aug 6, 2023

biblelesson said:
Each state must report to the CDC the number of abortions performed, and the term the abortion was performed at. Every year there is a small percentage of partial-birth abortions, or intact dilation and extraction. Most are done for medical reasons

Correct. I was a health care provider for 40+ years. My training was in internal medicine. I’m not an OB-Gyn and I don’t perform abortions. In my hospital, Intact D & E was done only up to 20 weeks. And there was clear evidence of fetal anomalies incompatible with extrauterine survival. The advantage of I D & E is that the fetus is delivered in a relatively intact state (hence the term intact dilatation and extraction.) Which allows for a complete pathological examination of the fetus and better informed genetic counseling for the parents. Even in a teaching hospital like mine, affiliated with a medical school, it wasn’t common, and was only done maybe 2-3 times a year.

But they are being performed illegally every year throughout the US.

That, I’m not aware of. If intact D &.E isn’t done by experienced OBs, for the very specific indications I noted above, that would be highly substandard medical care.

Tropical Wilds · Aug 6, 2023

Leaf473 said:
What is the right thing to do if a woman requests an abortion but during the procedure the baby ends up outside of her body and still alive? If a woman has the right to refuse to reproduce, and the baby is offered treatment as with any other live birth, has the woman's right to reproduce been violated?

Somewhat related:
If technology progresses to the place where a baby/collection of cells* can be removed early and implanted in another woman (or a bonobo?), would that affect the ethics of killing the organism in utero as opposed to extracting it and implanting it? Or the woman's right to reproduce (or not)?

*Attempting to use neutral terms

** I believe abortion is wrong in nearly all cases but hopefully the thread won't become a generic abortion thread

On the very, very, very off chance such a thing were to happen, I suspect the mother could enact a “comfort care only/do not resuscitate” directive to allow the baby to pass as quickly and painlessly as possible. Parents do it not infrequently when a baby is born with low-to-no survivability. When I worked at a hospital, one of the first things they ask when deciding where neonates/critical newborns go what the directives are. Babies with CCO/DNR weren’t admitted to the ICN as there was always a bed shortage and they wouldn’t occupy a bed with a neonate that had a DNR as it was an inefficient use of critical care resources.

That being said, this is up there with asking “if a woman got an abortion and ended up laying an egg instead, would she be given a nest or an incubator?”

Simply put, that’s not how abortions, even late-term ones, work or when abortions occur during a pregnancy.

Abortion accidents where the baby is still alive

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