The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit

Hermeneutico · Jul 9, 2023

The Indwelling/Gift of the Holy Spirit was always understood, generally speaking, as an event that took place after water baptism throughout Church History up to the Reformation. During the Reformation, a new view emerged that the moment one comes to faith (Calvin) or is water-baptized (Luther), one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Most evangelicals today affirm the Calvinist position on this matter. Lutherans and the Church of Christ hold that one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit automatically at water baptism. Most classical Pentecostals, coming out of the evangelical stream of Christianity, created a partial-reception idea foreign to Reformation theology, Historical Theology, and the Bible. They were the first to separate the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit. It appears that in their mind, they wanted to remain in the Evangelical camp while acknowledging that a post-conversion event takes place throughout the book of Acts.

The Biblical position and the Historical position agree. The Gift of the Holy Spirit and the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit are the same event but are only received after coming to faith first.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jul 9, 2023

Two passages nail it down for me:

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. The New King James Version (Ro 8:9–10). (1982). Thomas Nelson.
And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. The New King James Version (1 Jn 5:11–12). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

Either one will do because they essentially say the same thing. If Jesus lives in your heart, then you belong to Him and possess His eternal life. If he isn't in there, you have neither.

Hermeneutico · Jul 9, 2023

B Griffin said:
Two passages nail it down for me:

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. The New King James Version (Ro 8:9–10). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. The New King James Version (1 Jn 5:11–12). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

Either one will do because they essentially say the same thing. If Jesus lives in your heart, then you belong to Him and possess His eternal life. If he isn't in there, you have neither.

Hello,

Before I respond to those texts specifically, I have a couple of questions...

1. Do you teach that a person is "not in the flesh" anymore once the Holy Spirit indwells a person? After all, verse 9 says that, right?
2. Is having the Son before having the "Indwelling" possible? For example, when the Samaritans believed in Christ (Acts 8), did they have Christ at that moment, or did they have Christ after the Apostles laid hands upon them to receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit?

Blessings

NewLifeInChristJesus · Jul 9, 2023

Sorry, I'm not a member of this faith group. Didn't realize I was posting in the wrong place.

rocknanchor · Jul 10, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
Pentecostals, , , were the first to separate the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit.

Correction, the word of God has reduced this to hyperbole. Seen here.

Hermeneutico · Jul 10, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Correction, the word of God has reduced this to hyperbole. Seen here.

Your link: Well yes, up to now I have said this could be in a very quick but orderly fashion, just as the King James puts it "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" But, due to the many other translation's use, including the NKJV; "“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”, I think it's safe to compile the two as a sure possibility of being one single task of the Holy Spirit, the baptism of the Holy Spirit at the time of salvation, glory to God!

Hello Rock,

Many hyperbolic terms are used for the time one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit, so I am not sure what you are pointing to. Nonetheless, based on your link quote, I think you are attempting to say that when a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit, it happens at the time of salvation based upon how many have translated the aorist participle pisteusantes. The argument is whether the action of the aorist participle occurs antecedent to the main verb or simultaneous with it.

While it is true that many modern translators translate the aorist participle as occurring simultaneously to the main verb, which creates such translations as WHEN instead of SINCE these kinds of translations appear to be based more upon post Reformational theology as opposed to pure Greek. In fact, in their commentary on Acts, Carter, and Earle take on A.T. Roberton concerning this biased interpretation of this aorist participle:

"Robertson notes that usually the aorist participle indicates ACTION ANTECEDENT to that of the main verb but says that HERE (Acts 19) it signifies action contemporaneous with it [i.e., "when you believed"]. But why here? (Charles W. Carter and Ralph Earle, The Acts of the Apostles, p. 281)

This question is important. WHY does Robertson decide that THIS case must be an exception? Earle gets to the crux of the matter when he writes:

"Actually, the matter is decided not on the basis of scientific grammar, but of theological presupposition (Idid, p. 475)

Below is part of an article I wrote about this matter that shows what many Greek scholars actually believe about the aorist participle.

Daniel Wallace notes, "The aorist participle is normally, though by no means always, antecedent in time to the action of the main verb. But when the aorist participle is related to an aorist main verb, the participle will often be contemporaneous (or simultaneous) to the action of the main verb,"[1] which may provide an exception to the normative rule. However, he doesn't fully explain under what conditions this may apply. H. P. V. Nunn seems to agree, “Generally speaking, the Present Participle denotes action taking place at the same time as the action of the main verb, and the Aorist Participle denotes action which took place before the action of the main verb.”[2] Supporting the same position, the Anglican theologian C. F. D. Moule writes, “When the context positively demands a decision as to the sequence of the actions referred to in the participle and the main verb respectively, it often turns out that… an Aorist Participle refers to action previous to the main verb…"[3] Yet, Moule explains that "This brings at once to the very few and extraordinarily problematic exceptions to the principle: Acts 25:13… So in Acts 16:6… But K. Lake… removes this Aorist Participle from among the exceptions… Are there other exceptions in the New Testament? I know of none,”[4] suggesting that he does not believe that Acts 19:2 is one of the exceptions! This is further confirmed in Dr. Boyce W. Blackwelder's book, Light from the Greek New Testament. Blackwelder states that “The Acts is plentiful with examples of the aorist participle in contexts which indicate antecedent action, e.g. . . . ‘the Holy Spirit having come upon you’ (Acts 1:8). . . ‘have asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit, having believed’ (19:2).”[5]

The bottom line is simply this: The KJV translators did a good job translating the aorist participle. I would have translated it "having believed," but it conveys the same idea.

Blessings

[1] Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), p. 624.
[2] Henry Preston Vaughan Nunn, The Elements of the New Testament Greek (Cambridge: The University Press, 1914; 8th ed., Cambridge: The University Press, 1947), p. 75.
[3] Charles Francis Digby Moule, An Idiom Book of the New Testament (Cambridge: The University Press, 1959; 2nd ed., Cambridge: The University Press, 1971), p. 99.
[4] Ibid., 99-100.
[5] Boyce W. Blackwelder, Light From the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1976), pp 99-101.

rocknanchor · Jul 10, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
Hello Rock,

Many hyperbolic terms are used for the time one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit, so I am not sure what you are pointing to. Nonetheless, based on your link quote, I think you are attempting to say that when a person is baptized with the Holy Spirit, it happens at the time of salvation based upon how many have translated the aorist participle pisteusantes. The argument is whether the action of the aorist participle occurs antecedent to the main verb or simultaneous with it.

While it is true that many modern translators translate the aorist participle as occurring simultaneously to the main verb, which creates such translations as WHEN instead of SINCE these kinds of translations appear to be based more upon post Reformational theology as opposed to pure Greek. In fact, in their commentary on Acts, Carter, and Earle take on A.T. Roberton concerning this biased interpretation of this aorist participle:

This question is important. WHY does Robertson decide that THIS case must be an exception? Earle gets to the crux of the matter when he writes:

Below is part of an article I wrote about this matter that shows what many Greek scholars actually believe about the aorist participle.

The bottom line is simply this: The KJV translators did a good job translating the aorist participle. I would have translated it "having believed," but it conveys the same idea.

Blessings

[1] Daniel Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), p. 624.
[2] Henry Preston Vaughan Nunn, The Elements of the New Testament Greek (Cambridge: The University Press, 1914; 8th ed., Cambridge: The University Press, 1947), p. 75.
[3] Charles Francis Digby Moule, An Idiom Book of the New Testament (Cambridge: The University Press, 1959; 2nd ed., Cambridge: The University Press, 1971), p. 99.
[4] Ibid., 99-100.
[5] Boyce W. Blackwelder, Light From the Greek New Testament (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1976), pp 99-101.

Good job! Possibly, I failed to capture somewhere therein, but it appears all three of these; ‘having’, ‘when’ and ‘since you believed’ all resulting from our (new to me) Aorist Participle fails to secure refutation of my comment, which would require solid, indwelt cohesiveness in the word if as you say, “Pentecostals, , , were the first to separate the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit”.

Hermeneutico · Jul 10, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Good job! Possibly, I failed to capture somewhere therein, but it appears all three of these; ‘having’, ‘when’ and ‘since you believed’ all resulting from our (new to me) Aorist Participle fails to secure refutation of my comment, which would require solid, indwelt cohesiveness in the word if as you say, “Pentecostals, , , were the first to separate the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit”.

I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you disagree with what Classic Pentecostals teach in this matter?

Divide · Jul 10, 2023

What a good thread. I think that when we are born again spiritually that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Now people are different and so this may take place at different times, or according to the Lords time rather. It has nothing to do with Baptism, it has to do with a condition of the heart. The Lord looks at the heart.

I would think that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift to us but that it is not the gifts of the Holy Spirit. IOW, I believe that a person can be operating in the gifts before being indwelt. Through anointings, or through personal revelation..

Hermeneutico · Jul 10, 2023

Divide said:
What a good thread. I think that when we are born again spiritually that we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Now people are different and so this may take place at different times, or according to the Lords time rather. It has nothing to do with Baptism, it has to do with a condition of the heart. The Lord looks at the heart.

I would think that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a gift to us but that it is not the gifts of the Holy Spirit. IOW, I believe that a person can be operating in the gifts before being indwelt. Through anointings, or through personal revelation..

Hello,

I see the consistent post Acts 2 Testimony of Scripture to teach that one does not receive the Indwelling of the Spirit when comes to faith or water baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one has an established relationship with God. He does not indwell a person automatically at either of those two events. Additionally, believers are encouraged to pray for the Gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11).

I do agree that a believer who has a relationship with God can operate the Gifts of the Holy Spirit before they receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. We see examples of the Apostles operating the Gifts of the Spirit long before the they receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the entire Old Testament demonstrates this truth.

Divide · Jul 10, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
Hello,

I see the consistent post Acts 2 Testimony of Scripture to teach that one does not receive the Indwelling of the Spirit when comes to faith or water baptism. The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit comes AFTER one has an established relationship with God. He does not indwell a person automatically at either of those two events. Additionally, believers are encouraged to pray for the Gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11).

I do agree that a believer who has a relationship with God can operate the Gifts of the Holy Spirit before they receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. We see examples of the Apostles operating the Gifts of the Spirit long before the they receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. In fact, the entire Old Testament demonstrates this truth.

I think that you are talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But the indwelling takes place at the moment of coming to the Lord. Then we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He begins to lead us into all truth and to be our teacher. The indwelling Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit.

Now before we were born again, we were spiritually dead, right? Then we receive Jesus into our heart as Lord and we are given a new spirit, right? So spiritually we alive again and pure and holy in God's eyes, In spirit alone, right? Our flesh remains the same and is not redeemed at this time so it needs sanctification which takes a bit of time and is a process. Our mind will and emotions have yet to accept the Lord. So it takes effort to grow into maturity, which the Lord wants.

So we grow into sanctification and maturity over time by the work of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

The Spirit has nothing to do with flesh. But it does the Spirit! And if we are to be taught and led into all truth in order to grow and mature, then the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is necessary. See?

Or so it seems to me.

Hermeneutico · Jul 10, 2023

Divide said:
I think that you are talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

But the indwelling takes place at the moment of coming to the Lord. Then we have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And He begins to lead us into all truth and to be our teacher. The indwelling Holy Spirit bears witness with our spirit.

Hello,

I understand your position very well. I used to teach it. However, I do not see that Scripture teaches that position. At best, it MIGHT be inferred, but I do not think applying consistent conservative interpretation rules to all the passages surrounding this issue supports that conclusion at all.

Blessings
...

Hermeneutico · Jul 10, 2023

Blade said:
He Hermeneutico.. John said.. I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. The 12/120 were all saved and had a taste of the holy spirit but no filled/baptized with the holy Spirit. Christ said I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans;

They that were already saved did not have the baptism of the holy Spirit. Peter after said repent and receive the "gift" of the holy spirit. Also have you received the holy Spirit since you believed? We back up and have Luke 11:13 where the Father will give the sweet sweet holy Spirit to them that ask. I don' care what man says.. He said He will give? I am asking.. He gave and it happened exactly like when Paul asked them have you received the holy Spirit since you believed. I asked ..they prayed then just stopped said "thats it you got it". Huh? A ok.. got up went to sit down BAM! Tongues just came out.. it was like night and day. See they just believed what the word said. If God said ask and you ask God will give you what He said He would. As a believer I can only get the holy spirit.. its a promise to believers.

So find out what the BIBLE says not what I say.. don't believe me.. you see you ask you study. Find this out for your self.. ooh PRAISE GOD GLORY GLORY GLORY TO JESUS!

Hi,

Where did I teach anything different?

rocknanchor · Jul 11, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that you disagree with what Classic Pentecostals teach in this matter?

Simply, in regard to your statement, “Pentecostals, , , were the first to separate the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit”, , following the Church's founding and every established succession since, you may be right, but, I tend to place the word of God anywhere in that chronological lineup, if we can't a flawed dogma has overcome sound doctrine. Therefore, wasn't it rather Paul, thereby the word of God that defined this sealing and gift independence?

Hermeneutico · Jul 11, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Simply, in regard to your statement, “Pentecostals, , , were the first to separate the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of the Holy Spirit”, , following the Church's founding and every established succession since, you may be right, but, I tend to place the word of God anywhere in that chronological lineup, if we can't a flawed dogma has overcome sound doctrine. Therefore, wasn't it rather Paul, thereby the word of God that defined this sealing and gift independence?

Scripture teaches that one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit, that is, the Indwelling Spirit, once. It does not take place when one comes to faith through repentance. It does not take place automatically through water baptism. It takes place as a separate experience apart from either of those experiences.

Blade · Jul 11, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
Hi,

Where did I teach anything different?

I must have said it wrong.. I deleted my post.

rocknanchor · Jul 12, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
Scripture teaches that one receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit, that is, the Indwelling Spirit, once. It does not take place when one comes to faith through repentance.

Hmm? A troubling comment there I must say, you know the drill,

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (Romans 8:9)

Just what 'coming to faith' are you suggesting?

By mere virtue of Paul's question itself (Acts 19:2) indicates subsequent, or, consecutive yet holy division, easily independent.

Hermeneutico · Jul 12, 2023

rocknanchor said:
Hmm? A troubling comment there I must say, you know the drill,

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. (Romans 8:9)

Just what 'coming to faith' are you suggesting?

By mere virtue of Paul's question itself (Acts 19:2) indicates subsequent, or, consecutive yet holy division, easily independent.

Hello

Interesting; however, what is troubling is proof-texting. You know the drill.

"A text used out of context is a prooftext for a pretext."

Would you interpret the entire first in that manner?

Rom. 8:9a: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit."

If one takes this part out of context, as you do to the latter part of the verse, the result would be that you are teaching that anyone who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is no longer in the flesh. Hmmmm... are they now perfect. Are they now forever "in the Spirit"?

Do you teach that a believer doesn't need to walk in the Spirit because he is "automatically" "in the Spirit"? After all, it appears that you are reading the rest of the verse in a literalistic, out of context, manner.

Before I answer further, I want to see how you get out of this interpretation method.

OldAbramBrown · Jul 13, 2023

Hermeneutico said:
Where did I teach anything different?

Because you combine the gift of Holy Spirit (by belief following teaching on His dual action) with the gifts of the Holy Spirit (re-imparted continually since Ascension).

The Gospel and Epistles are not written like Genesis, nor Revelation.

Hermeneutico · Jul 13, 2023

OldAbramBrown said:
Because you combine the gift of Holy Spirit (by belief following teaching on His dual action) with the gifts of the Holy Spirit (re-imparted continually since Ascension).

The Gospel and Epistles are not written like Genesis, nor Revelation.

All the Epistles agree, Hermeneutically, with what the book of Acts reveals about the singular reception of the Gift of the Holy Spirit AFTER a person has faith. The Gift of the Holy Spirit is not received when one comes to faith, nor is it received when one is water baptized.

Scripture nowhere teaches anything less.

The Indwelling of the Holy Spirit

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