I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to USURP authority over the man

tonychanyt · Jul 5, 2023

King James Bible, 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

New King James Version corrected it:

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

English Standard Version: I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

HELPS Word-studies:

831 authentéō (from 846 /autós, "self" and entea, "arms, armor") – properly, to unilaterally take up arms, i.e. acting as an autocrat – literally, self-appointed (acting without submission).

This Greek word appears only once in the Bible but it was a common word outside of the Bible.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.

b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1 Timothy 2:12.

BDAG

αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 b.c.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII a.d.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod S 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.

There is a sense of self-proclaiming to this word.

My translation: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assert authority over a man

See also Can a woman be a pastor?.

Maria Billingsley · Jul 5, 2023

tonychanyt said:
King James Bible, 1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

English Standard Version: I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

HELPS Word-studies:

831 authentéō (from 846 /autós, "self" and entea, "arms, armor") – properly, to unilaterally take up arms, i.e. acting as an autocrat – literally, self-appointed (acting without submission).

This Greek word appears only once in the Bible but it was a common word outside of the Bible.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.
b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1 Timothy 2:12.

BDAG

αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 b.c.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII a.d.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod S 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.

There is a sense of self-proclaiming to this word.

My translation: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assert authority over a man

Ok.

Blade · Jul 6, 2023

you are really trying to push this one huh. Context.. who and time it was written does matter.

public hermit · Jul 6, 2023

Translate it however you want, his argument for why he does not so permit is ridiculous. Adam was created first? So. That tells us nothing about why a woman is not able to teach a man. Because she was deceived and he wasn't? From where does he get that idea? Wherever that's coming from, it means the one who knowingly did wrong is somehow better equipped to teach than the one who made a mistake. They both ate. He's more a transgressor than her if he knew. There's no reason to think the man is somehow better able. We can learn from mistakes, but knowingly doing wrong means one needs to recieve correction and training rather than give it. The final statement is where things get absurd. She will be saved through childbearing so long as her offspring continue in faith? Could there be a more unPauline statement regarding salvation?

At least if one uses the passage from 1 Corinthians 14 to defend their misogyny, they only have to explain away an interpolation instead of a ridiculous argument.

12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty

tonychanyt · Jul 6, 2023

public hermit said:
Translate it however you want, his argument for why he does not so permit is ridiculous. Adam was created first? So. That tells us nothing about why a woman is not able to teach a man. Because she was deceived and he wasn't? From where does he get that idea? Wherever that's coming from, it means the one who knowingly did wrong is somehow better equipped to teach than the one who made a mistake. They both ate. He's more a transgressor than her if he knew. There's no reason to think the man is somehow better able. We can learn from mistakes, but knowingly doing wrong means one needs to recieve correction and training rather than give it. The final statement is where things get absurd. She will be saved through childbearing so long as her offspring continue in faith? Could there be a more unPauline statement regarding salvation?

At least if one uses the passage from 1 Corinthians 14 to defend their misogyny, they only have to explain away an interpolation instead of a ridiculous argument.

12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with modesty

Right. See I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man?

tonychanyt · Jul 6, 2023

Blade said:
you are really trying to push this one huh. Context.. who and time it was written does matter.

See I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man?

public hermit · Jul 6, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Right. See I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man?

Ah, I hadn't seen that. I agree. Paul will sometimes explicitly say what he is communicating is not from the Lord but himself. Did he make that explicit every time he spoke his own opinion? I doubt it. We have been given the Spirit and the royal law of love. The onus of responsibility falls on us to discern whether what he says is divinely inspired or his own position.

Which sounds more divine: In christ there is neither male nor female or woman should be quiet and learn from men because Adam knowingly sinned?

Halbhh · Jul 6, 2023

Context is from chapters like 1rst Corinthians 8.

Read it and see if you can see what's happening in regard to a local situation at a moment in time: 1 Corinthians 8 NIV

1 Corinthians 8:13 - Food Sacrificed to Idols

Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to stumble.

biblehub.com

(notice that we are to sacrifice freedoms for the sake of the weak around us, when needed, as long as needed)

So, you can then see why we get instructions then like this one at a moment in time:

"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." (Col 3)

"All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered." (1 Tim 6)

But in time, a different aim:

"Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so." (1 Cor 7)

And in time, a slave owner is to become a servant to that slave:

"15 Perhaps the reason he was separated from you for a little while was that you might have him back forever— 16 no longer as a slave, but better than a slave, as a dear brother. He is very dear to me but even dearer to you, both as a fellow man and as a brother in the Lord.
17 So if you consider me a partner, welcome him as you would welcome me. ..." (Philemon)

So, women in the early church would need to be silent to help the "weak" men who could not accept so much change so quickly. They literally would need to sacrifice freedoms for the sake of the weak around them in that day, because it was needed, and for as long as needed, as explained clearly in 1rst Corinthians 8.

@tonychanyt
@public hermit you might be interested in this or like the summary

Lost Witness · Jul 20, 2023

Perhaps the issue is due to her LEADING him into sin.
Adam had no such influence and wouldn't have trusted the serpent but he trusted her because she was given to him by the LORD.
He cared about her and trusted her.
Was LED astray by his heart.
Now what enticed eve to eat?
What's did the serpent say would come of her eating the fruit?

public hermit · Jul 20, 2023

Lost Witness said:
Perhaps the issue is due to her LEADING him into sin.
Adam had no such influence and wouldn't have trusted the serpent but he trusted her because she was given to him by the LORD.
He cared about her and trusted her.
Was LED astray by his heart.
Now what enticed eve to eat?
What's did the serpent say would come of her eating the fruit?

There is no indication in the Genesis text that any of what you assume was in play. You're reading it through a misogynistic lens.

Der Alte · Jul 21, 2023

tonychanyt said:
See I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man?

Paul did not state that as a requirement of any scripture but it was his opinion alone. The word incorrectly translated "exercise" should be translated "usurp" i.e. unlawfully to take authority for oneself. It does NOT mean a woman cannot be given authority.

tonychanyt · Jul 21, 2023

Der Alte said:
Paul did not state that as a requirement of any scripture but it was his opinion alone. The word incorrectly translated "exercise" should be translated "usurp" i.e. unlawfully to take authority for oneself. It does NOT mean a women cannot be given authority.

How about my translation: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assert authority over a man

Der Alte · Jul 21, 2023

tonychanyt said:
How about my translation: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assert authority over a man

I'm not sure that carries the same force as "usurp" which means to take for oneself. That word only occurs one time in the NT 1 Tim 2:12. Here is the definition from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available.

αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod S 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 150.

Numerous sources the authors consulted in determining the correct definition highlighted in blue. To refute this definition one would have to review and refute more than 1/2 of the listed sources.

tonychanyt · Jul 21, 2023

Der Alte said:
I'm not sure that carries the same force as "usurp" which means to take for oneself. That word only occurs one time in the NT 1 Tim 2:12. Here is the definition from Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon. one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available.

αὐθεντέω (s. αὐθέντης; Philod., Rhet. II p. 133, 14 Sudh.; Jo. Lydus, Mag. 3, 42; Moeris p. 54; cp. Phryn. 120 Lob.; Hesychius; Thom. Mag. p. 18, 8; schol. in Aeschyl., Eum. 42; BGU 1208, 38 [27 B.C.]; s. Lampe s.v.) to assume a stance of independent authority, give orders to, dictate to w. gen. of pers. (Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 14, 10 Boll-B.; Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/1 p. 177, 7; B-D-F §177) ἀνδρός, w. διδάσκειν, 1 Ti 2:12 (practically = ‘tell a man what to do’ [Jerusalem Bible]; Mich. Glykas [XII A.D.] 270, 10 αἱ γυναῖκες αὐθεντοῦσι τ. ἀνδρῶν. According to Diod S 1, 27, 2 there was a well-documented law in Egypt: κυριεύειν τὴν γυναῖκα τἀνδρός, cp. Soph., OC 337–41; GKnight III, NTS 30, ’84, 143–57; LWilshire, ibid. 34, ’88, 120–34).—DELG s.v. αὐθέντης. M-M.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 150.
Numerous sources the authors consulted in determining the correct definition highlighted in blue. To refute this definition one would have to review and refute more than 1/2 of the listed sources.

Why did the New King James Version change the word "usurp" to:
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Der Alte · Jul 21, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Why did the New King James Version change the word "usurp" to:
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

Maybe they had an agenda. I'm sure they had access to the BDAG which I quoted. In the early '80s my first Greek professor, Dr Roger Omanson, since deceased, who was on the initial NIV translation committee spoke about the problems they encountered when old school Greek scholars did not want to change the wording of good old King Jimmy.

returntosender · Jul 22, 2023

It's not the same time or place.

tonychanyt · Jul 22, 2023

Der Alte said:
Maybe they had an agenda.

The NKJB had an agenda against the old KJB?

Der Alte · Jul 22, 2023

tonychanyt said:
The NKJB had an agenda against the old KJB?

Some kind of agenda which compelled them to translate αὐθεντεῖν /authentein as "have authority" vice "usurp authority". "Have authority" implies under any and all circumstances while "usurp authority" means "take authority for oneself."

tonychanyt · Jul 22, 2023

Der Alte said:
Some kind of agenda

Any idea what kind?

Der Alte · Jul 22, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Any idea what kind?

The agenda which some groups adhere to i.e. All men are in charge of all women and women should keep silent and never teach men or something like that.

I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to USURP authority over the man

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