Would like to go back to Catholicism, but can't - thoughts?

Markie Boy said:

There is a part of me that wants to go back, but I have become so convinced of two things I don't know I ever could. I am NOT looking to start a big debate - just share thoughts. I am hoping my days of adversarial debate are over.

1. The Papacy - I have done a lot of research on it, and it just seems the Vatican I Papacy doesn't fit with with the early church

2. The priest hood - I can't find a sacerdotal priesthood in the New Testament. I have seen explanations of where they think it's from, but the word priest is only used for Jesus as high priest, and the priesthood of all believers in the NT.

Has anyone else had these same objections, and then changed their mind?

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There's another thread Michie made about 'how did the Church last 2000 years'

The answer is it is for man, despite man.

Everything else at it's very core is ego.
1. We know it is indeed the Church Jesus established and promised would not teach heresy.

Whether or not we approve of the practices leading to the teaching be it vernacular or Latin, whatsoever way it is done, it is without heresy.
That's the most humbling yet true fact often overlooked.

Because Jesus said so.
He handed over HIS authority to Peter [and his successors]
That is all we need to know.
There's no debate except in man's minds.

Markie Boy said:

There is a part of me that wants to go back, but I have become so convinced of two things I don't know I ever could. I am NOT looking to start a big debate - just share thoughts. I am hoping my days of adversarial debate are over.

1. The Papacy - I have done a lot of research on it, and it just seems the Vatican I Papacy doesn't fit with with the early church

2. The priest hood - I can't find a sacerdotal priesthood in the New Testament. I have seen explanations of where they think it's from, but the word priest is only used for Jesus as high priest, and the priesthood of all believers in the NT.

Has anyone else had these same objections, and then changed their mind?

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If it helps, as to the "priesthood of all believers" in the new testament, that comes from the old testament:

Exo 19:6 "And you shall be to Me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words which you shall speak to the children of Israel.”

Note that the nation of Israel was a "kingdom of priests" but they still had a standing priesthood. All Jews were priests but not all Jews were priests. The new testament identifies a hierarchy within the Church also:

1Co 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

The answer to the question "are all apostles, etc." is no. Some are just like me. A layman.

Markie Boy said:

1. The Papacy - I have done a lot of research on it, and it just seems the Vatican I Papacy doesn't fit with with the early church.

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If you can forgive me, I am not a historian so I will leave this to others, and answer the second question.

Markie Boy said:

2. The priest hood - I can't find a sacerdotal priesthood in the New Testament. I have seen explanations of where they think it's from, but the word priest is only used for Jesus as high priest, and the priesthood of all believers in the NT.

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2. I see you have read the Bible, and searched for it. But it is there, just hidden. If I will have you know, that the word "High Priest" in greek is ἀρχιερεύς/archiereus, and the word for priests (that you have seen) is ἱερεύς/hiereus. High Priest of course being Arch Hiereus. Now then why are only these used? They are not. Hiereus comes from the greek word ἱερός/hieros, which means "sacred" though especially referred to the Temple. But there is another word for Priests that is used in the Bible. πρεσβύτερος/presbuteros, or PREBYSTERS, translated in most modern Bibles as "Elder(s)" as that is it's literal word. Presbyter was also the title of those in the Sanhedrin, the Council of God among the jews, and then the Assemblies of the Church. In fact "Presbyter" through latin, is where the word "Priest" comes from, not through any other word.

Another title used for Priests is ἐπίσκοπος/episkopos, often translated as Overseer, but also Bishop. Why Bishop was used for Priests I will explain shortly. Presbyters were ordained in every town as Paul commands Titus who he ordained Bishop "For this cause I left thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and shouldest ordain priests [presbyters] in every city, as I also appointed thee:" and as Peter also was a Priest "The elders [presbyters] which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder [presbyter], and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:" As noted in Acts, Presbyters/Priests, also acted in Council and oversaw the Church. Each church being led also by a Bishop. Though as Acts 14:23 says "And after they had appointed elders [presbyters] for them in each church" to shepherd over them of course, presbyters ruled. Now why then are Bishops also referenced, as ruling over Churches? The reason is given early by St. Jerome: Therefore a presbyter is the same as a bishop is, and before that by the instigation of the devil emulations in respect to religion arose, and people began to say: I am of Paul, and I of Apollos, and I of Cephas, the churches were governed by the common counsel of the presbyters. But, after that each one was accustomed to regard those whom he had baptized as his own disciples and not of Christ, it was decreed in the whole world that one chosen from among the presbyters should be placed over the others ... Therefore, as presbyters may know that by the custom of the church they are subject to the one who has been placed over them; so also bishops may understand that they are greater than presbyters more by custom than by the veritable ordinance of the Lord.

Or that, it was distinguished to ensure proper order of faith. Though Priests are still prebysters, and Bishops as well.
But I would reread the Scriptures, but understand that "Elder" and to an extent "Overseer" as well, both refer to Priests. Afterall even the word itself comes from the greek πρεσβύτερος.

Markie Boy said:

The priesthood is probably one of the biggest issues for me. I can see the priesthood of all believers clear as a bell. But a separate, mediatorial priesthood, I'm currently not seeing - so would welcome any insight there.

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"The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter." Acts 15:6

"Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word* with the imposition of hands of the
presbyterate.i" 1 1 Timothy 4:14


The English word “priest” is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as “elder” or “presbyter.”

"1. The Papacy - I have done a lot of research on it, and it just seems the Vatican I Papacy doesn't fit with with the early church"

Papacy​

This term is employed in an ecclesiastical and in an historical signification. In the former of these uses it denotes the ecclesiastical system in which the pope as successor of St. Peter and Vicar of Jesus Christ governs the Catholic Church as its supreme head. In the latter, it signifies the papal influence viewed as a political force in history


Here's a good explanation to read on the Papacy;

Markie Boy said:

1. The Papacy - I have done a lot of research on it, and it just seems the Vatican I Papacy doesn't fit with with the early church

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I've seen a lot of traditional Catholics lately scrutinize Vatican I and essentially point out that it's the cause of Vatican II. I think it's a fair criticism and I can see where they're coming from. I kind of hold out hope that a future council or maybe even an ex cathedra statement from a better pope will amend or clarify that and recognize the Popes supreme authority while tamping down on the ultramontanism that Vatican I laid the groundwork for.

Ultimately I think the authority of the pope is correct, the problem lies with us laymen understanding the extent of that authority and not becoming "the Church of what the Pope said lately" as Timothy Flanders put it once. I see this in a lot of historically Catholic countries and cultures, that there's a borderline deification of the pope and I believe it's because for over a century we've treated every statement from the Pope as gospel truth and 100% factually accurate.

Markie Boy said:

2. The priest hood - I can't find a sacerdotal priesthood in the New Testament. I have seen explanations of where they think it's from, but the word priest is only used for Jesus as high priest, and the priesthood of all believers in the NT.

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I kind of took a different approach here. I think the sacerdotal priesthood is most clearly established in the OT and then the words in the NT that Christ didn't come to abolish the law but fulfill the law applies to that as well. Thus Christ essentially changed the criteria for the priesthood from Levites to followers of Him, regardless of their tribe or ethnic affiliation.

Without getting into all the technical stuff about sacerdotal priesthood, the priesthood of all believers, the hardline of Vatican I on papal infallibility leading to ultramontanism (Pius IX was feeling very threatened by anti-Catholic developments at the time), Christ also said "I will LEAD you into all the truth".

That implies a step by step process, and along the way the Church and Christians will make mistakes.

For me the sacerdotal priesthood is a consequence of apostolic succession.

I'll be sticking to the Catholic Church even though I have one major disagreement with it, and as a former Protestant I'm not a fan of "Papal infallibility". It leads to a sense that what any Pope writes or says has a sort of "infallibility" about it, even though that is not what is meant.

For what it's worth my old (long deceased) Presbyterian pastor turned up in a vision one night and said to me "The Catholic Church is CLOSEST to the truth" with a distinct emphasis on the word "closest". That followed on from a conversation we had while he was still alive when he was becoming disillusioned with the divisions in Protestantism.

That word "closest" means it hasn't got all the truth - for me anyway.

That's private revelation but I'm not going to get closer to the truth by going anywhere else.