Okay seriously, what the heck?

Gnarwhal · Jun 17, 2023

I'm seeing myself as a trad less and less, not necessarily because my values or my preferences have change, but there's an element of rot on the fringe that is disturbing at best.

Take a look at this tweet from Mike Parrot, known as "RTF Mike" who runs the "Restoring the Faith" podcast and social media:

He's praising the sketch and what's being represented in the sketch: a Nazi soldier. What is with this correlation between sympathizing with the Third Reich and traditional Catholicism? I just genuinely don't understand why one appeals to the other and how so many have seemed to congregate in this corner of the Church.

If you don't know Mike Parrot he's basically a rad trad, he hosted a show with a few others like himself including that fake "Brother Martin" guy who isn't actually a religious at all and was very publicly and clearly reprimanded by his bishop for masquerading as a religious. Mike was also raked over the coals by Church Militant for launching a crowdfunding campaign to raise funds to cover Fr. James Jackson, who recently made headlines again for pleading guilty to the possession of child pornography charges, and then apparently handling the raised funds in a very sketchy manner.

So these people don't seem to have much scruples to begin with but they have the audacity to chastise other Catholics for their worship preferences and their valid lifestyle choices.

Even though I'm feeling less and less traddy, I don't feel like that necessarily pushes me into the modernist camp though. I still detest a goofy novus ordo, I still avoid protestant practices and themes incorporated into our worship and prayer life, I would opt for a Latin Mass if I had one around to go to. But I can't say I'm a trad anymore when this kind of correlation seems to be on the rise.

I mean really, there should be more of a reprimand for public jerks that show sympathy for the Third Reich.

RileyG · Jun 18, 2023

I love the TLM but do not consider myself a "rad trad." I am just faithful to Christ and his Church. I pray for these kind of people. ugh

Wolseley · Jun 18, 2023

Well...without knowing the context of what was going on in the artist's mind when he drew the picture, it's a little difficult to render an informed opinion, just on the surface of it.

The uniform the soldier is wearing is a Wehrmacht uniform. This was the uniform of the national army, the German Army that was the equivalent of the British Army, or the French Army, or the American Army, or anybody's army. Anybody and everybody joined or was drafted and placed into it. Were there fervent Nazis? Yes. Were there fervent Catholics? Yes. Were there atheists? Sure. But the Wehrmacht was not specifically a "Nazi" organization.

The actual Nazis, the true believers who were totally convinced of the Nazi doctrines and were fanatical worshippers of Hitler, were the Waffen-SS, or Schutzstaffel. These were the guys into all of the "Aryan supremacy" garbage and who would fight to the death instead of surrendering honorably when there was obviously no other way of survival. (There were cases at the very end of the war when SS troops actually shot Wehrmacht troops rather than allowing them to surrender.)

That being said, if you take the drawing as regular German Army troops defending their women and children from the invading Russians, the artist kind of has a point---if you know anything about what the Russians did to the women in Germany, it was pretty horrific; a lot of gang rapes and murders. Yes, Germany was a Fascist police state, but Russia was a Communist police state, and I wouldn't wish either one of them on my worst enemy.

Anyway, for future reference, here's the difference, in general terms, of the uniforms worn by simple regular soldiers, and the fanatical Nazis:

Wehrmacht, or Deutsche Heer, German Army:

And the Waffen-SS, or "Armed Special Guard", the real "Nazis":

See the differences? It's basically the same outfit, but the insignia is completely different. The collar tabs on the Army uniform are basic Army insignia, whereas the collar tabs on the SS uniform are, obviously, SS runes. The Army uniform has a swastika-and-eagle insignia over the right-hand pocket; the SS uniform has a slightly different style of the same insignia on the left upper sleeve. The headgear of the Army soldier bears a national tricolor shield; the SS man's headgear bears a death's-head skull and crossbones. The belt buckles have different insignia stamped on them. And so on.

And, of course, these are only two example of the literally hundreds of different uniforms worn by people during the Third Reich.....this doesn't even touch on the navy, air force, or the dozens of different paramilitary organizations extant at the time, such as the Storm Troops, the Labor Front, the Hitler Youth, the Air Sports units, factory guards, the list is prctically endless.

chevyontheriver · Jun 18, 2023

spicoli said:
I'm seeing myself as a trad less and less, not necessarily because my values or my preferences have change, but there's an element of rot on the fringe that is disturbing at best.

Take a look at this tweet from Mike Parrot, known as "RTF Mike" who runs the "Restoring the Faith" podcast and social media:

He's praising the sketch and what's being represented in the sketch: a Nazi soldier. What is with this correlation between sympathizing with the Third Reich and traditional Catholicism? I just genuinely don't understand why one appeals to the other and how so many have seemed to congregate in this corner of the Church.

I see Wols replied about the different uniforms. Maybe his point is valid. Not every German was a Nazi just like not every American was at the My Lai massacre. I donno. I would think they could have made the same point without a specifically German uniform. Or any uniform for that matter. I know of someone with the same basic point who framed the thing in terms of 'city fathers' in a non-militaristic way. He was by the way a Vietnam era CO who did his time in prison for refusing to go to Viet Nam.

spicoli said:
If you don't know Mike Parrot he's basically a rad trad, he hosted a show with a few others like himself including that fake "Brother Martin" guy who isn't actually a religious at all and was very publicly and clearly reprimanded by his bishop for masquerading as a religious. Mike was also raked over the coals by Church Militant for launching a crowdfunding campaign to raise funds to cover Fr. James Jackson, who recently made headlines again for pleading guilty to the possession of child inappropriate contentography charges, and then apparently handling the raised funds in a very sketchy manner.

Trad-land has it's problem people. One of them was bishop Williamson, ordained as one of the first four SPPX bishops. He was a Holocaust denier and a generalized fruitcake. The SSPX eventually kicked him out. Still a valid bishop, still a fruitcake, still inhabiting a small corner of Trad-land. Trad-land has it's scurrilous characters, to nobody's surprise. Sadly.

Oh, and I hate the use of that phrase 'inappropriate contentography'. My spell checker flags 'contentography' because it knows it's not a real word. Why can't you just say what it is, pornography?

spicoli said:
Even though I'm feeling less and less traddy, I don't feel like that necessarily pushes me into the modernist camp though. I still detest a goofy novus ordo, I still avoid protestant practices and themes incorporated into our worship and prayer life, I would opt for a Latin Mass if I had one around to go to. But I can't say I'm a trad anymore when this kind of correlation seems to be on the rise.

I don't know that it's actually 'on the rise' but a few cases of it could make a guy think maybe it is. Don't let the illegitimate ones wear you down. Recognize them for the deviants they are and go ahead and be traditional without being tied to them. All dogs may go to heaven, but we know that doesn't apply to all Trads.

spicoli said:
I mean really, there should be more of a reprimand for public jerks that show sympathy for the Third Reich.

Reading your post serves for me as a reprimand for public jerks who fly the Trad flag but seem tied to something other than Jesus. We know such people exist. They should be pushed to the fringes and then off the edge if they won't repent.

Wolseley · Jun 18, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
I hate the use of that phrase 'inappropriate contentography'. My spell checker flags 'contentography' because it knows it's not a real word. Why can't you just say what it is, inappropriate contentography?

Italics mine.

You tried to say p-o-r-n-o-g-r-a-p-h-y, and the automatic censor zeroed in on the "naughty word" and changed it to the silly term used, "inappropriate contentography".

I, too, dislike the stupid term, as well as the censoring of the more proper word. It's not a foul word, or an offensive term; it's a description. But, for whatever reason, TPTB feel its better to squelch it and replace it with a term that isn't even an English term, rather than just letting it ride. (shrug) Not my railroad.

chevyontheriver · Jun 18, 2023

Wolseley said:
Italics mine. You tried to say p-o-r-n-o-g-r-a-p-h-y, and the automatic censor zeroed in on the "naughty word" and changed it to the silly term used, "inappropriate contentography".

I, too, dislike the stupid term, as well as the censoring of the more proper word. It's not a foul word, or an offensive term; it's a description. But, for whatever reason, TPTB feel its better to squelch it and replace it with a term that isn't even an English term, rather than just letting it ride. (shrug) Not my railroad.

Oh so silly. TPTB won't allow us to say 'pornography'. They replace that word with silliness. They don't like being criticized either so I guess I had better drop it. What a way to run a railroad.

Wolseley · Jun 19, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
What a way to run a railroad.

That's what Daffy Duck said.

Gnarwhal · Jun 24, 2023

Wolseley said:
Well...without knowing the context of what was going on in the artist's mind when he drew the picture, it's a little difficult to render an informed opinion, just on the surface of it.

The uniform the soldier is wearing is a Wehrmacht uniform. This was the uniform of the national army, the German Army that was the equivalent of the British Army, or the French Army, or the American Army, or anybody's army. Anybody and everybody joined or was drafted and placed into it. Were there fervent Nazis? Yes. Were there fervent Catholics? Yes. Were there atheists? Sure. But the Wehrmacht was not specifically a "Nazi" organization.

The actual Nazis, the true believers who were totally convinced of the Nazi doctrines and were fanatical worshippers of Hitler, were the Waffen-SS, or Schutzstaffel. These were the guys into all of the "Aryan supremacy" garbage and who would fight to the death instead of surrendering honorably when there was obviously no other way of survival. (There were cases at the very end of the war when SS troops actually shot Wehrmacht troops rather than allowing them to surrender.)

That being said, if you take the drawing as regular German Army troops defending their women and children from the invading Russians, the artist kind of has a point---if you know anything about what the Russians did to the women in Germany, it was pretty horrific; a lot of gang rapes and murders. Yes, Germany was a Fascist police state, but Russia was a Communist police state, and I wouldn't wish either one of them on my worst enemy.

Anyway, for future reference, here's the difference, in general terms, of the uniforms worn by simple regular soldiers, and the fanatical Nazis:

Wehrmacht, or Deutsche Heer, German Army:

View attachment 332456

And the Waffen-SS, or "Armed Special Guard", the real "Nazis":

View attachment 332457

See the differences? It's basically the same outfit, but the insignia is completely different. The collar tabs on the Army uniform are basic Army insignia, whereas the collar tabs on the SS uniform are, obviously, SS runes. The Army uniform has a swastika-and-eagle insignia over the right-hand pocket; the SS uniform has a slightly different style of the same insignia on the left upper sleeve. The headgear of the Army soldier bears a national tricolor shield; the SS man's headgear bears a death's-head skull and crossbones. The belt buckles have different insignia stamped on them. And so on.

And, of course, these are only two example of the literally hundreds of different uniforms worn by people during the Third Reich.....this doesn't even touch on the navy, air force, or the dozens of different paramilitary organizations extant at the time, such as the Storm Troops, the Labor Front, the Hitler Youth, the Air Sports units, factory guards, the list is prctically endless.

I see what you're saying, and I accept that as a valid distinction.

That being said, I don't believe the people who are using them as symbols of simple concepts like defending one's homeland and family are doing so because that's what the Wehrmacht was doing. Honestly, there are plenty of other symbols in history that can represent the same thing without the ties to the atrocities of the Third Reich. The ancient Spartans come to mind as a great example, or the Maccabees, or perhaps the original example of such a thing: King David's defense of Israel against Goliath and the Philistines.

I think the much likelier explanation is that they affirm the ideologies of the Nazi party. There seems to be this not insignificant subset of traditional Catholicism that is really antisemitic and operates on notions of racial purity. Take for example, this guy's tweet below. He identifies himself as a traditional Catholic of Irish descent who knows Latin and has made trips to the Vatican. Yet it also came out that his paternal grandmother was an Ashkenazi Jew and the fangs came out.

It's just weird. Like fine, whatever, go be a Nazi but don't claim my religion too. They are not compatible.

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Okay seriously, what the heck?

Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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RileyG

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Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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chevyontheriver

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Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member

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Wolseley

Beaucoup-Diên-Cai-Dāu

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Gnarwhal

☩ Broman Catholic ☩

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