Crime and Punishment

Well, God, momentarily, permits prisons; this is clear. But prison itself is not necessarily a punishment. People are actually kept in a safe place and God is there waiting to heal their sin, guilt and suffering, in general. God prefers to receive people when they suffer greatly and they seemingly have lost all hope.

Other people should regard criminals with compassion and humility. They should not see them selves as better than criminals and use their situation as an opportunity to inspect their own sins and tendencies, and to help the criminals.

I got thrown into (volunteering if needed) with the youth (13-21 age) prisoners program teaching Bible (one hour on Sunday morning to a group of 14 with three other Christians teaching groups of 14) and I was teaching three groups of “Christians”. The first group were guys (“going to school”, it is called), they start out causing trouble and getting thrown in the tank. Then they start increasingly attending the Bible services, carrying their Bible, being nice, eventually being baptized and saying they are Christian. By the time the parole board meets, they have this glowing report showing continued improvement tied to their increased spirituality and are released. These guys still carry weapons, are members of a gang, and every prisoner knows they just “went to school” to get out. The second group were converted before they went to prison (grandma conversions), but on the first day they are seen watching raunchy TV, hanging with a loss group, laughing at off colored jokes, were not always talking about Jesus and were not trying to convert others. Their first day in prison the snitches see this, the snitches talk to the Bulls who then approach these “Christians” saying: “you are not a Christian” (doing everything Christ would do) and make them a slave (often sexual) or at best a gang member. They still come to Bible study on Sunday, so they can tell Granny (who visits them Sunday afternoon) what they learned, but they are slaves (sometimes sexually) to some bull. The third group is fanatical, they stick close to each other, they: study, pray, witness to everyone, and avoid even a hint of insincerity that the snitches could see. They carry no weapons, but step between those that are being beaten especially persecuted. This group had grown over the last 3 years from just a couple of guys to now 42, but it came at a high price. Each convert had on the day he was baptized given up the protection of his gang membership, turned over his weapons along with all his possessions (the gang owns everything including them), they were beaten if not by the gang they left, then by other gangs looking for payback and then they were watched constantly looking for any sign the snitches might interpret as weakness (anything less than what Christ would do in the situation, would result in a beating and it could lead to death). There is absolutely no privacy and these Christians never wanted to be found alone. They slept in barracks where at least one stayed awake all night praying over the others, so they could sleep without the fear of being smashed in the head in the middle of the night. These guys believed and counted on power from the Holy Spirit, I did not know existed. They come battered and bruised each week hungry for some real meaningful Christ like lesson that goes beyond their group study of 40+hours that week on the same subject, which I could not provide. They mostly helped me with my poor example of Christianity and lack of knowledge and lack of wisdom. They mentored me even though they were only Christian for a few months, but I was a poor disciple and could not keep up with them

Xeno.of.athens said:

How shall Christians think about criminals and the way to treat them? In English speaking lands prison is still mostly seen as a kind of punishment by deprivation of liberty and other strictures applied to the criminals in the prison system. But God never mandated prisons, we have inherited prisons from the Romans

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Under a Theocracy (such as in the OT and such as we do not find at all in the NT age) -- God was king of the nation, wrote the civil laws and had the "death penalty" for things like gluttony, Sabbath breaking, worship of false gods etc.

If someone was a criminal and so killed someone - then that person was killed instead of "sent to jail"

Xeno.of.athens said:

So, with the knowledge that God gave the Law to Moses and did not provide for prisons nor for executions on every sort of crime - yet there were many crimes that would end in an execution so the law looks like it is too harsh for our societies to adopt as it stands written in the Pentateuch - what are we to do as Christians?

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We don't have a theocracy so we can't use the same standards of punishment. In our age we have religious liberty, liberty of conscience etc so no Laws pertaining to the first 4 commandments (where the Sabbath is the 4th commandment in that Jewish text of Ex 20) - are premissible since they violate freedom of religion.

But when it comes to the last six commandments we do have civil laws for punishment in the case of some of them. Prison is better than death - for sure when it comes to those last six where for a few of them a civil penalty is deemed appropriate.

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Some prisons are viewed as "correctional institutions" where the punishment is supposed to correct bad behavior. Some people actually become Christians in prison (such as David Wood).

Xeno.of.athens said:

How shall Christians think about criminals and the way to treat them? In English speaking lands prison is still mostly seen as a kind of punishment by deprivation of liberty and other strictures applied to the criminals in the prison system. But God never mandated prisons, we have inherited prisons from the Romans and other pagan societies and we have modified the harshness of the ancients with a kinder and gentler sort of prison, but still maintaining a strong punishment ethos.

So, with the knowledge that God gave the Law to Moses and did not provide for prisons nor for executions on every sort of crime - yet there were many crimes that would end in an execution so the law looks like it is too harsh for our societies to adopt as it stands written in the Pentateuch - what are we to do as Christians?

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We, as Christians, don't do much of anything. The secular authorities are responsible for punishment for crimes. But since we live in a democracy we have the right to vote. Way back when, Christian Emperors and Kings decided punishment for crimes, but since we do live in a democracy we ourselves sit as Emperor or King. We should vote as if we are making a decision by a Christian Emperor.

Xeno.of.athens said:

But is prison a good solution; God didn't choose it for Israel, possibly because the funds for it were not available when the Law was given. But we have funds for prisons, and funds for other ways of dealing with crime without prisons like the ones we have in English speaking countries. But I wonder how others here think about this matter. Are they aware of any alternatives, have they considered what alternatives exist, what alternatives might be good to try and so forth.

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1. punishment is needed to deter crime in the one who is criminal and imprisoned, and needed to disuade would-be criminals.
2. End of crime is also needed - which happens when the criminal is executed as in the OT or put in prison.
3. So it is more than just "rehab". But in the case of criminals that are expected to go back out on the street again - rehab is must (but seldom happens apparently).

I would like to see people that are not in prison for life - be given a good rehab for becoming "street certified" good citizens and everyone in prison should have a good chance of accepting the gospel and being productive if they choose to be.

There are of course mental disorders, behavioral disorders etc some are curable and some are not.

HTacianas said:

We, as Christians, don't do much of anything. The secular authorities are responsible for punishment for crimes. But since we live in a democracy we have the right to vote. Way back when, Christian Emperors and Kings decided punishment for crimes, but since we do live in a democracy we ourselves sit as Emperor or King. We should vote as if we are making a decision by a Christian Emperor.

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And we have a lot of prison ministries done by Christians

Punishment has to be accepted as severe discipline to make a change in the person. If we do not put forth a huge effort to rehabilitate the criminal, they will always come back. I have witnessed unbelievable huge change in people (at least they were unbelievable to me). If they can reach the point where they say: "I am not here for the wrong I did, but for the good I can do here", they are ready to get out.

Xeno.of.athens said:

But is prison a good solution; God didn't choose it for Israel, possibly because the funds for it were not available when the Law was given. But we have funds for prisons, and funds for other ways of dealing with crime without prisons like the ones we have in English speaking countries. But I wonder how others here think about this matter. Are they aware of any alternatives, have they considered what alternatives exist, what alternatives might be good to try and so forth.

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Depends on one's definition of prison .... if you are defining it by single "building(s)" ... or ..... being held captive as being imprisoned

the nation of Judah was taken to Babylon for 70 years of captivity (imprisoned) by God .... so they were imprisoned (held captive).

Romans 13

Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Not everyone who commits crimes gets imprisoned ... imprisonment is becoming more and more relaxed all the time. There are many alternatives in place already in an effort to help criminals (education, mental health services, addiction recovery etc) ... there just isn't any one perfect solution. Unfortunately there are some who will never overcome committing crime .... with those in order to maintain some sort of order in society then incarceration (isolation from society) for extend period of times is the only viable option. They can use this time by furthering their education and/or taking advantage of the many programs that are available in the prison systems .... or not.