A Necessity - 4 Marian Doctrines

concretecamper said:

Scripture please showing the Father and Son are consubstantial. And then scripture showing that the Holy Spirit is consubstantial with the Father and the Son.

You can't get around it. Just admit you accept an authority other than scripture to explain the Trinity. Everyone Trinitarian protestant accepts the Tradition of His Church when it comes to what they believe about the Trinity.

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I just said why I believe that. Logically piecing together all the Scriptures teach about the Trinity is not accepting an authority other than Scripture. It is using your God-given brain as led by the Holy Spirit.

I also reject that it was the RC church that gave us these statements on the Trinity. It was the early Christian church prior to the full formation of the RC church.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

Logically piecing together all the Scriptures teach about the Trinity

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I asked before and you never gave your response. Please give me book(s), chapter(s), verse(s) that prove the following:

If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema

There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are

NotUrAvgGuy said:

It is using your God-given brain as led by the Holy Spirit.

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I've heard people who claim to be led by the Spirit say water Baptism is needed for salvation and other who claim to be led by the Spirit say water Baptism isn't required. The Holy Spirit isn't fickle, man is. For one to claim to be led by the Spirit accomplishes nothing. Are we to assume that your claim of using "your God-given brain" will lead us all to truth? Are you claiming infallibility?

concretecamper said:

I asked before and you never gave your response. Please give me book(s), chapter(s), verse(s) that prove the following:

If anyone will not confess that the Father, Son and holy Spirit have one nature or substance, that they have one power and authority, that there is a consubstantial Trinity, one Deity to be adored in three subsistences or persons: let him be anathema

There is only one God and Father, from whom all things come, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one holy Spirit, in whom all things are


I've heard people who claim to be led by the Spirit say water Baptism is needed for salvation and other who claim to be led by the Spirit say water Baptism isn't required. The Holy Spirit isn't fickle, man is. For one to claim to be led by the Spirit accomplishes nothing. Are we to assume that your claim of using "your God-given brain" will lead us all to truth? Are you claiming infallibility?

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I actually don't think God is as exacting as you are. Most people could not define the Trinity as you have when they come to salvation. The specific wording adopted by councils over the years has almost always been in response to heresies that try to deny some essential element of the Trinity. Prior to these heretical attacks, it was not a focus of Christendom to get into such detail about the Trinity. When Jesus invited men to "come follow me," He did not subject them to a doctrinal exam and neither did the Apostles. One could go their entire life as a Christian and never understand precisely what consubstantial means. As long as they believe that God is one and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up that one God, that is all that is required.

The verses that lead to the above are in Scripture. It is not necessary to satisfy you that they exist to provide the exact wording you are looking for. As I said, the Father and Son are stated to be of one substance and the Holy Spirit is stated to be part of the one God. Scripture treats them as one and as equal. We don't need a specific verse that states that all in one sentence or one verse. When you take in all that Scripture teaches about the Trinity, you arrive at that. The need for precision only came about due to heretical attacks. So men met together and put more exact wording around it but did not use anything other than Scripture to arrive at those words.

Of course, I am not infallible and neither is anyone else or any one group. I believe that all who are called by God will get the essentials right. They may differ on other points of doctrine. They may belong to different churches. They may differ on things like infant baptism or the End Times. They may have different styles of worship. What unites them as "the church" and the family of God are those essentials and having trusted in Christ alone for their salvation. The Holy Spirit now indwells them. That is "the church" Jesus established. It is a universal church without buildings or ecclesiastical structures. It spans denominations and non-denominational churches. Its authority is the Word of God and while that church is not infallible, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. It is not the RC church or any other specific church. It will exist until Christ returns regardless of nations, laws, and churches coming and going.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

Prior to these heretical attacks, it was not a focus of Christendom to get into such detail about the Trinity

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NotUrAvgGuy said:

The specific wording adopted by councils over the years has almost always been in response to heresies that try to deny some essential element of the Trinity.

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So it was not important as you state first, or it was important as you state second.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

As long as they believe that God is one and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit make up that one God, that is all that is required.

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So if God reveals Himself, who He is to His Children, it's really ok to just say, nah, I don't think the details are important?

NotUrAvgGuy said:

The verses that lead to the above are in Scripture. It is not necessary to satisfy you that they exist to provide the exact wording you are looking for

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It is not necessary because they don't exist.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

The need for precision only came about due to heretical attacks.

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exactly, precision not found in scripture.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

I believe that all who are called by God will get the essentials right.

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Who defines the essentials? You?

NotUrAvgGuy said:

They may belong to different churches. They may differ on things like infant baptism or the End Times. They may have different styles of worship. What unites them as "the church" and the family of God are those essentials and having trusted in Christ alone for their salvation. The Holy Spirit now indwells them. That is "the church" Jesus established. It is a universal church without buildings or ecclesiastical structures. It spans denominations and non-denominational churches. Its authority is the Word of God and while that church is not infallible, Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against it. It is not the RC church or any other specific church. It will exist until Christ returns regardless of nations, laws, and churches coming and going.

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There is so much here not in conformance with scripture, that it would greatly distract from this thread so I will not comment.

concretecamper said:

So it was not important as you state first, or it was important as you state second.

So if God reveals Himself, who He is to His Children, it's really ok to just say, nah, I don't think the details are important?

It is not necessary because they don't exist.

exactly, precision not found in scripture.

Who defines the essentials? You?

There is so much here not in conformance with scripture, that it would greatly distract from this thread so I will not comment.

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It is not that the details aren't important but tell me in which accounts in Scripture of the Gospel being proclaimed, do you hear a detailed presentation on the Trinity. Did Peter preach on the Trinity on the day of Pentecost? Yet we are told thousands of souls were added that day. Tell me they all understood these details. Was that a barrier to them being saved? If these details were not understood, as you contend, until centuries later, were these people truly saved? Was their salvation lacking or deficient in any way? According to you, these people lived and died before we fully understood the nature of the Trinity. If those details were essential, then how could they have been saved?

The precision was there but needed some thought to put it into wording that would address the heresies that had arisen.

I think the essentials are pretty apparent except for those later added by the RC church. However, believe in whatever essentials you want. I don't agree that the rest of what I wrote is not in accord with Scripture. It's just not in accord with the RC church.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

Was their salvation lacking or deficient in any way? According to you, these people lived and died before we fully understood the nature of the Trinity. If those details were essential, then how could they have been saved?

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Salvation depends on grace, faith and following the teaching of Christ and His Church (He that hears you hears Me). Rejecting Church teaching on faith and morals is rejecting Him. Plain and simple. So if a Christian dies not knowing the details of the Trinity, does that condemn him to Hell? Of course not. If a Christian dies rejecting His Church's teachings, well, I'd rather not be that Christian. It's all about obedience and submission to Christ. It's not about what makes sense to me or you.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

It is not that the details aren't important but tell me in which accounts in Scripture of the Gospel being proclaimed, do you hear a detailed presentation on the Trinity. Did Peter preach on the Trinity on the day of Pentecost?

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My point exactly. What we believe about the Trinity is from Tradition, not scripture.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

Yet we are told thousands of souls were added that day. Tell me they all understood these details. Was that a barrier to them being saved?

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Of course not, they believed and had faith. Because of the Holy Spirit they believed. Now if sometime in the future some of those thousands that were saved rejected some teachings of the Church, well I wouldn't want to be that guy.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

think the essentials are pretty apparent except for those later added by the RC church.

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So, do you get to decide which of God's teachings are essential?

concretecamper said:

Salvation depends on grace, faith and following the teaching of Christ and His Church (He that hears you hears Me). Rejecting Church teaching on faith and morals is rejecting Him. Plain and simple. So if a Christian dies not knowing the details of the Trinity, does that condemn him to Hell? Of course not. If a Christian dies rejecting His Church's teachings, well, I'd rather not be that Christian. It's all about obedience and submission to Christ. It's not about what makes sense to me or you.

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I don't believe the RC church is His church. It is a church but not THE CHURCH. It has departed from Scripture on many points and our obedience is to the Lord and the Word of God, not an earthly church. Authority only comes from the Word of God.

concretecamper said:

My point exactly. What we believe about the Trinity is from Tradition, not scripture.

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I have no doubt Peter and the other Apostles understood the nature of the Trinity even better than we do. Had they felt it necessary to go into all the details when they preached, they would have.

concretecamper said:

Of course not, they believed and had faith. Because of the Holy Spirit they believed. Now if sometime in the future some of those thousands that were saved rejected some teachings of the Church, well I wouldn't want to be that guy.

So, do you get to decide which of God's teachings are essential?

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I do but I don't make that decision in a vacuum. I stand in good company with millions of other Christians and great teachers over the centuries. We both know our basic disagreement is over the church. You believe the RC church is "His church" and that their teaching is allowed to add to Scripture. I reject that the RC church is "His church" and that any church is allowed to add to Scripture. That is the key decision. The paths diverge once you make that decision. If you accept your view, the RC church can proclaim any doctrine and you have to accept it even if you can't find it in Scripture. How can you tell them they are wrong? You can't. You have to blindly trust them. I hold all authorities to Scripture. We each have to make our own decision but I test my decision against Scripture and against the views of other Christians. I trust my Lord to keep me right on the essentials. Jesus, and the NT, taught we cannot lose our salvation. If we are His, we are forever His.

NotUrAvgGuy said:

It has departed from Scripture on many points and our obedience is to the Lord and the Word of God

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Exactly. Once you have departed from the scripture to the point where you form new doctrines that are completely opposite to what the Word teaches you cannot be called "his church". The biggest point being we are to go directly to the Father in prayer in Christ's name. Anything that goes beyond that is in complete opposition.

JulieB67 said:

Exactly. Once you have departed from the scripture to the point where you form new doctrines that are completely opposite to what the Word teaches you cannot be called "his church". The biggest point being we are to go directly to the Father in prayer in Christ's name. Anything that goes beyond that is in complete opposition.

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Where in Scripture do we see prayer to anyone other than God? Does anyone pray to Moses or Elijah? Does Peter or Paul or any other NT writer encourage us to pray to the dead? This is something the RC church has added that has no support in the NT. Prayer, by definition, is to God and God alone. How do you communicate with Mary? Oh, you pray to her? Sorry, only God can hear our prayers. On earth, we may ask someone to pray for us. We do that without praying to them. We ask in person, over the phone, by text, or by email. We don't pray to them. Prayer is two-way communication with God. At no time is Mary or anyone else able to hear our prayers. That is RC church tradition which is foreign to Scripture.

That is just one example of where the RC church has departed from Scripture. This is the church that protected pedophiles, had dueling popes at times, sold indulgences, appointed men bishops for political reasons, and so on. Hardly sounds like an infallible group. Have Protestant leaders done the same? Sure and I don't consider them infallible either. The veneration of Mary and the concept of saints and prayer to them all came centuries after the Apostles.