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The world's first horse riders

Diamond72

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Adam and Eve live 6,000. We see this was about the time people began to ride horses. A wild horse is one thing. A domesticated horse is something else. Clearly we find many, many, many beginnings at the time of Adam and Eve in the Bible.


The researchers discovered evidence of horse riding by studying the remains of human skeletons found in burial mounds called kurgans, which were between 4500-5000 years old.
 

Halbhh

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Made me curious about that evidence and there are many articles, but often AP will give a reasonably good summary:

This isn't related to anything we read about Adam and Eve though. Also, it's worth considering that this is the oldest evidence found so far. Later we might find evidence of some earlier time.
Question: suppose you notice many things happened around 5,000-6,000 years ago by dating techniques. Would that make you think it's evidence for the speculative YEC theories?

But, we have a very large amount of evidence for things far older than 10,000 years.

So, we can't selectively accept evidence for anything about 5,000-6,000 years by dating, and refuse to accept similar dating techniques that date other things at 10,000 and more years ago -- that's not a thing we should do.

Why not just be delighted at the horse back riding in and of itself?
 
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Halbhh

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some detail on dating the remains in that new horse riding study:

" Most (~150) have been assigned to the Yamnaya culture by radiocarbon dating and archeological context of burial customs (15, 16, 27, 42), but some individuals are ambiguous or are—as buried in the same burial mound, called kurgan—dated earlier or later, thus belonging to another culture group."
From the actual published study behind the news in the OP: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.ade2451

Radiocarbon dating is good to about 50,000 years timescale.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Like... I don't get it. What's the point? What's the comparison here? What's the objective of making the claim that Adam and Eve rode horses, a very specific claim that needs to tie in the whole act to an exact time and place: the Garden of Eden, which Diamond says existed near the Persian Gulf, and evidence of horse riding being in that locale for that time period.

The evidence does not support that at all.
 
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Diamond72

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This isn't related to anything we read about Adam and Eve though.
You raise a valid point that Horses were domesticated in Mongolia. The point is that Eden was not "wild" by any of the imagination. We have cultivated plants and domesticated animals in ancient Mesopotamia. This is where civilization began. While Mongolia has a rich cultural and historical legacy, it is not typically considered to be the birthplace of civilization in the traditional sense.

Look at Genesis 2:20. The term "livestock" is used in this verse to describe the animals that God brought to Adam to be named, along with the birds of the air and the beasts of the field. These animals were likely domesticated animals that were kept by humans for various purposes such as food and labor, as opposed to wild animals that roamed free in the fields and forests.

We mostly read about this in our High School Biology. Eden is what we call a biodiverse ecosystem. Only Eden was very important because this has to do with animal husbandry or domesticated animals and cultivated plants. They call this the neolithic revolution.

This was a major turning point in human history, beginning around 10,000 BCE, when humans transitioned from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle to a settled agricultural lifestyle. During this period, humans began to domesticate plants and animals, which allowed them to establish permanent settlements and develop more complex societies.

The Agricultural Revolution had a profound impact on human societies, leading to the development of agriculture, the rise of civilizations, and the growth of human populations. It also led to the development of new technologies, such as plows, irrigation systems, and the wheel, which further enabled human societies to thrive and develop. The Agricultural Revolution is widely considered to be one of the most important events in human history, as it paved the way for the development of modern civilization.

The wheel was invented in the 4th millennium BC in Lower Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) by the Sumerian people who inserted rotating axles into solid discs of wood[1] Putting the horse and wheel together to make carts did seem to happen until after Noah's flood.
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Diamond72

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A simple google search shows that horses predate the 6000 year time line by quite a few years.
Yes, I am talking the point in the evolution of the horse and every other animal when they were NO longer wild and they became domesticated. They had the wheel in Ancient Mesopotamia at the time of Adam, but the cart did come later, perhaps after Noah's flood.
 
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Gene2memE

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Adam and Eve live 6,000. We see this was about the time people began to ride horses.

Genetic evidence supports the domestication of horses being completed circa ~5000-5500 years ago, around an area of steppe spreading across Ukraine and all the way into central Kazakhstan. However, given experience for other species which were domesticated earlier (pigs, goats, cattle, dogs), domestication likely occurred over a period lasting several thousand years.

It's also interesting to note that evidence for palentology and archeology suggests that horses were initially domesticated as sources of meat, milk and beasts of burden, rather than as riding creatures.

A wild horse is one thing. A domesticated horse is something else. Clearly we find many, many, many beginnings at the time of Adam and Eve in the Bible.

Humans developed lots of things about 6000 years ago. They also developed lots and lots and lots of things in the thousands of years before this, which would directly contradict a literal reading of the Bible story, or any dating around 6000 years ago.
 
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Diamond72

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Humans developed lots of things about 6000 years ago. They also developed lots and lots and lots of things in the thousands of years before this, which would directly contradict a literal reading of the Bible story, or any dating around 6000 years ago.
The current scientific estimate of the age of the universe is about 13.8 billion years. So clearly we are looking for a place and time when God finished the work He was doing. It took 13.8 billion years for God to create Adam and Eve. Yet people think that God's work was instant. The only thing instant was the point of time and the place. Called a moment in time. We are star stuff. The Bible refers to star stuff as dust.

In order to meet a friend for lunch, you need to agree on both a location and a time to meet. Without these two pieces of information, it would be difficult to coordinate and ensure that both parties are able to meet up at the same time and place. It is important to communicate clearly and confirm the details beforehand to avoid confusion or misunderstandings. We have a time, we have a location for Adam, 6000 years ago in the Euphrates river valley.

Ancient Mesopotamia is often considered the birthplace of civilization, as it was one of the earliest known civilizations in human history. Mesopotamia was located in the region that is now modern-day Iraq, and it was home to several powerful city-states, including Sumer, Akkad, Babylon, and Assyria.

Some of the key developments that emerged in Mesopotamia include the invention of writing, the development of complex systems of government and law, the construction of monumental architecture such as ziggurats and temples, and the establishment of organized religion and social hierarchies. Mesopotamia was also a center of trade and commerce, with important routes connecting it to other regions in the ancient world.

Overall, the legacy of Mesopotamia is significant and enduring, and its influence can be seen in a wide range of areas, from politics and law to religion and art.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson often uses the phrase "we are all made of star stuff" in his public appearances and in his popular scientific writings. The idea behind this statement is the same as the one popularized by Carl Sagan, which is that the elements that make up our bodies and the world around us were created in the cores of stars and were then scattered across the universe when those stars exploded as supernovae.
 
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dlamberth

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So clearly we are looking for a place and time when God finished the work He was doing.
No, "WE" are not looking for such a place and time.
Just a quick glance at all of the star births going on through out the Cosmos, it's clear that the Creation process of the Universe is never complete. It's ridiculous to even think that God can stop creating as creating is an aspect of His being.
 
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Diamond72

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No, "WE" are not looking for such a place and time.
You may not be looking but the Bible tells us when and where. A moment in time is time and place. Unless you can be two different places at the same time.

Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, & Moses are all real people that lived out their life here on Planet Earth.

According to the Bible, in the book of Genesis, God created Adam, the first man, by forming him from the dust of the ground and breathing into his nostrils the breath of life, and Adam became a living being. This act of God breathing life into Adam is seen as the moment when human life began and highlights the unique relationship between God and humanity. The idea of God breathing life into Adam is often interpreted as a symbol of God's intimate involvement in the creation and sustaining of human life, and is considered to be a powerful affirmation of the value and dignity of human life.
 
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dlamberth

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You may not be looking but the Bible tells us when and where. A moment in time is time and place. Unless you can be two different places at the same time.

Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah, & Moses are all real people that lived out their life here on Planet Earth.

According to the Bible, in the book of Genesis, God created Adam, the first man, by forming him from the dust of the ground and breathing into his nostrils the breath of life, and Adam became a living being. This act of God breathing life into Adam is seen as the moment when human life began and highlights the unique relationship between God and humanity. The idea of God breathing life into Adam is often interpreted as a symbol of God's intimate involvement in the creation and sustaining of human life, and is considered to be a powerful affirmation of the value and dignity of human life.
The thing is, when I look towards the Cosmos and all of what is actually happening out there with star birth and all, it's clear that God has not stop nor will never stop creating.

God is infinite. As such, so is the creating process and time infinate. No stopping God with that.

Adam, Eve and Noah exist only in ancient pre-Jewish creation stories. Abraham and maybe Moses may have actually lived, but brought forth only through the biased len of religious stories.

The Breath of God is always nice to explore. Where you see it in Adam, consider all of Creation as the Breath of God, with Human Beings as one ray of light with in that Divine Breath. And all other forms each their own ray of light with in God's Breath. From that way of looking at it, there's way more than "value and dignity of human life" going on as we look within.
 
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Diamond72

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Adam, Eve and Noah exist only in ancient pre-Jewish creation stories.
Lots of people skip over the genealogies in the Bible and do not read them.

If you are into fiction, there is plenty available at the library, on TV in the Movies. The Bible is not fiction. The Bible is truth and the people we read about are real people. Some of the interpretations or even translations may cause you problems. What people say the Bible says and what the Bible actually says is not always the same.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Even if there was evidence for the domestication of horses in the Middle East before anywhere else (there isn't), that still does not mean at all that Adam and Eve existed as real people.
 
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Diamond72

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Even if there was evidence for the domestication of horses in the Middle East before anywhere else (there isn't), that still does not mean at all that Adam and Eve existed as real people.
Yes, actually the horse demonstrates that the domestication of animals was going on in Mongolia at the time and not in the middle east. Although Mongolia is still considered a primitive society and no one considers them to be a part of the move toward civilization.

The wheel was clearly invented in the middle east. Then the Assyrians took the horse from the Mongolians and the wheel to create a war chariot. They defeated Egypt in some battles. So Egypt developed the Chariot also. So you are right, this is not strong evidence for the Garden of Eden.

screenshot-www.google.com-2023.03.09-10_09_16.png
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Yes, actually the horse demonstrates that the domestication of animals was going on in Mongolia at the time and not in the middle east. Although Mongolia is still considered a primitive society and no one considers them to be a part of the move toward civilization.

The wheel was clearly invented in the middle east. Then the Assyrians took the horse from the Mongolians and the wheel to create a war chariot. They defeated Egypt in some battles. So Egypt developed the Chariot also. So you are right, this is not strong evidence for the Garden of Eden.

View attachment 328858

And yet the domestication of the horse also happened in the Volga-Don region around the same time as the Mongolians started their domestication of the horse, since horses are wide spread over the Eurasian continent and chariots are dated to be first invented in the steppes of Russia and Ukraine around the 4th Millennium BC.
 
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Diamond72

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And yet the domestication of the horse also happened in the Volga-Don region around the same time as the Mongolians started their domestication of the horse,
The Volga-Don were stone age. The Bronze Age began in the Middle East. Although they were breeding horses which by definition is making them domestic.

No one disputes that civilization began in Mesopotamia and no one disputes that the Eden in the Bible was in Ancient Mesopotamia.

Clearly it was the Assyrians that took the wheel and joined it with the horse.

Mesopotamia is often referred to as the "cradle of civilization" because it was home to several ancient civilizations, including the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Assyrians. These civilizations emerged in the region between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, known as the "Fertile Crescent," and they were characterized by advanced systems of government, religion, agriculture, and trade.

Some of the key features of Mesopotamian civilization include the invention of writing, the development of complex systems of irrigation and agriculture, the construction of impressive architectural works such as ziggurats and temples, and the establishment of legal codes and systems of government.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Now you paint yourself in a corner. The Volga-Don were stone age. The Bronze Age began in the Middle East. Although they were breeding horses which by definition is making them domestic.

No one disputes that civilization began in Mesopotamia and no one disputes that the Eden in the Bible was in Ancient Mesopotamia.

Clearly it was the Assyrians that took the wheel and joined it with the horse.

Mesopotamia is often referred to as the "cradle of civilization" because it was home to several ancient civilizations, including the Sumerians, Babylonians, and Assyrians. These civilizations emerged in the region between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, known as the "Fertile Crescent," and they were characterized by advanced systems of government, religion, agriculture, and trade.

Some of the key features of Mesopotamian civilization include the invention of writing, the development of complex systems of irrigation and agriculture, the construction of impressive architectural works such as ziggurats and temples, and the establishment of legal codes and systems of government.

Humans existed outside of Mesopotamia for millenia before what we now call civilization came about.
 
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Diamond72

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I fail to see how I painted myself into a corner. Humans existed outside of Mesopotamia for millenia before what we now call civilization came about.
Yes, but Adam was the first to have the Breath of Life. This is what the neolithic revolution is all about. This is why we left the stone age behind. You showed us that even though they had domesticated horses they were still stone age pre agriculture people that can not be considered civilized.

The Stone Age and the Brass Age are two distinct periods in human history that represent major advancements in technology, society, and culture.

The Stone Age, which spanned from around 3.4 million years ago to approximately 3000 BCE, was characterized by the use of stone tools and weapons. During this period, humans developed the ability to create and use simple tools, such as hand axes and spears, for hunting and gathering food. They also developed more complex tools, such as knives, scrapers, and blades, which allowed them to create clothing, build shelters, and engage in more advanced forms of agriculture.

In contrast, the Brass Age, which began around 3300 BCE and lasted until the Iron Age, was marked by the use of brass and other metal alloys. This period saw the emergence of advanced metalworking techniques, which allowed humans to create tools, weapons, and objects of art with greater precision and durability than ever before. The use of metal also facilitated the growth of trade and commerce, as it allowed for the creation of standardized currencies and more complex forms of manufacturing.

Overall, the transition from the Stone Age to the Brass Age represents a significant shift in human technological and social development. The use of metal and advanced metalworking techniques allowed for the creation of more sophisticated tools and objects, which in turn led to new forms of commerce, culture, and society.
 
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