Stumbling over bible verses which appear to be contradictory etc

ClearPerspective said:

So I was reading the book of Numbers the other day and came across a verse about God dwelling in darkness, and remembered other verses about God being in the darkness.

However, in the NT, I think in 1Timothy it says that God dwells in unapproachable light and i recall singing a line in a song 'he wraps himself in light'.

Forgive me, I'm struggling with typing today and haven't the references to hand, but hopefully someone will be familiar with a few of those verses.

This totally confused me. Is anyone able to explain this?

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The ancients viewed darkness as evil and light as good. Anyone who's ever sat around a campfire will tell you the light from the fire only goes so far. Beyond that light is darkness. Darkness represents the unknown. To say that God dwells in light is to say that God is all good. But to say that God also dwells in darkness is to say that God is omnipresent.

ClearPerspective said:

Hi HTacianas, thanks so much for your reply.

Please can you say where this explanation is from? I'm interested in reading more, if it's possible?

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Contrasting light and dark as analogous to good and evil is found almost throughout the bible. If you read John 3:

Jhn 3:19 “And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 “For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

You see that evil is said to reside in darkness. An evil person remains in the darkness while a good person will come into the light. To omnipresence, in Colossians the writer discusses the Word of God, that being the divine creative power of God. That is the same that John describes when he says, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us".

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist

Not only is God present in all things, all things actually exist within God.

HTacianas said:

Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist

Not only is God present in all things, all things actually exist within God.

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I think that is a bit of a stretch. The preposition, (ἐν) translated "in" does not usually mean "within", in the sense that "the salt is in the seawater". If I understand the rules of this site correctly, it prohibits the promotion of both Pantheism and Animism. While it is true that he caused, maintains and upholds our existence, neither his existence, his nature nor his being, in whole nor in part, is comprised of us, his creation.

Mark Quayle said:

I think that is a bit of a stretch. The preposition, (ἐν) translated "in" does not usually mean "within", in the sense that "the salt is in the seawater". If I understand the rules of this site correctly, it prohibits the promotion of both Pantheism and Animism. While it is true that he caused, maintains and upholds our existence, neither his existence, his nature nor his being, in whole nor in part, is comprised of us, his creation.

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I don't think it is Pantheism to understand that, "In God we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28
We have no being of our own. Our being is derivative of God's own being. God is therefore intimate to our inner most being.

Akita Suggagaki said:

I don't think it is Pantheism to understand that, "In God we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28
We have no being of our own. Our being is derivative of God's own being. God is therefore intimate to our inner most being.

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"In God we live and move and have our being."

Thank you, and I agree to a point. It is not of ourselves that we have being —that much is clear. And, if you have read much of what I think, indeed the very smallest particle of the universe, of both matter and force, is 'at its core' comprised of something of God, (again, in my opinion —I think the truth of it is much more, and much different, than I can imagine) —'at its core', I say, perhaps a very 'material' or 'physical' thing we would currently term, "God's Love". It is, at least, clear that he not only made us, but that it is by and through him that we are enabled, (or granted or even something more intimate and dependent than those), to exist and to act.

Ever since I was a kid, the notion has seemed self-contradictory, that anything could exist besides God. To me it makes perfect sense that God exists —how could he not? But that anything else can exist, is an intellectual problem. But, if anything else does exists, it is obvious to me that at least it gets its existence FROM him. I would even go so far as to say that its existence is derived of him and of his nature and of his existence.
(Side note: Here I think the doctrine of sin comes into play. Sin is at my intellectual boundary for what "is" and "is not". In my mind, many themes vie for my attention here, and intersect with one-another here —currently the most outstanding being the theme of God's power. But that is another discussion.)

But we need to be careful where we take our descriptive language. Much madness can come of some too-short dogmatic statements. Yet, too, "In many words there lacks not sin."

Mark Quayle said:

I think that is a bit of a stretch. The preposition, (ἐν) translated "in" does not usually mean "within", in the sense that "the salt is in the seawater". If I understand the rules of this site correctly, it prohibits the promotion of both Pantheism and Animism. While it is true that he caused, maintains and upholds our existence, neither his existence, his nature nor his being, in whole nor in part, is comprised of us, his creation.

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His existence, nature and/or being are not separate from each other so to argue "in whole or in part" is failing to define God correctly. Since you haven't defined God correctly, you can not logically argue that He is comprised of us. The argument is not sound.

It is true that He "caused, maintains and upholds our existence,".

HTacianas was going to the effort to reassure to ClearPerspective that the Bible is true and you can trust that God is present everywhere, in His creation, which should be reassuring rather than contradictive.

Mark Quayle said:

"In God we live and move and have our being."

Thank you, and I agree to a point. It is not of ourselves that we have being —that much is clear. And, if you have read much of what I think, indeed the very smallest particle of the universe, of both matter and force, is 'at its core' comprised of something of God, (again, in my opinion —I think the truth of it is much more, and much different, than I can imagine) —'at its core', I say, perhaps a very 'material' or 'physical' thing we would currently term, "God's Love". It is, at least, clear that he not only made us, but that it is by and through him that we are enabled, (or granted or even something more intimate and dependent than those), to exist and to act.

Ever since I was a kid, the notion has seemed self-contradictory, that anything could exist besides God. To me it makes perfect sense that God exists —how could he not? But that anything else can exist, is an intellectual problem. But, if anything else does exists, it is obvious to me that at least it gets its existence FROM him. I would even go so far as to say that its existence is derived of him and of his nature and of his existence.
(Side note: Here I think the doctrine of sin comes into play. Sin is at my intellectual boundary for what "is" and "is not". In my mind, many themes vie for my attention here, and intersect with one-another here —currently the most outstanding being the theme of God's power. But that is another discussion.)

But we need to be careful where we take our descriptive language. Much madness can come of some too-short dogmatic statements. Yet, too, "In many words there lacks not sin."

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I think HTacianas was just trying to restate the Word of God for ClearPerspective so they can understand it better. Its ok to restate the Word of God as long as it points the reader to it rather than yourself.

Mark Quayle said:

"In God we live and move and have our being."

Thank you, and I agree to a point. It is not of ourselves that we have being —that much is clear. And, if you have read much of what I think, indeed the very smallest particle of the universe, of both matter and force, is 'at its core' comprised of something of God, (again, in my opinion —I think the truth of it is much more, and much different, than I can imagine) —'at its core', I say, perhaps a very 'material' or 'physical' thing we would currently term, "God's Love". It is, at least, clear that he not only made us, but that it is by and through him that we are enabled, (or granted or even something more intimate and dependent than those), to exist and to act.

Ever since I was a kid, the notion has seemed self-contradictory, that anything could exist besides God. To me it makes perfect sense that God exists —how could he not? But that anything else can exist, is an intellectual problem. But, if anything else does exists, it is obvious to me that at least it gets its existence FROM him. I would even go so far as to say that its existence is derived of him and of his nature and of his existence.
(Side note: Here I think the doctrine of sin comes into play. Sin is at my intellectual boundary for what "is" and "is not". In my mind, many themes vie for my attention here, and intersect with one-another here —currently the most outstanding being the theme of God's power. But that is another discussion.)

But we need to be careful where we take our descriptive language. Much madness can come of some too-short dogmatic statements. Yet, too, "In many words there lacks not sin."

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Philosophers and theologians have hashed through this for centuries.

I think that we are also at least made from God's will.

With regard to the OP I think it is good to remember that what seems a contradiction may often be a restatement from another way of looking or speaking. God is immanent yet also transcendent. God dwells in both light and darkness, divine darkness.

God's power? There is a mind boggler. For it is in weakness that strength reached perfection. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10.

1 Corinthians 1:18​

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

​

Wyatt A. said:

His existence, nature and/or being are not separate from each other so to argue "in whole or in part" is failing to define God correctly. Since you haven't defined God correctly, you can not logically argue that He is comprised of us. The argument is not sound.

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I think you took me wrong. I agree with that completely. Where I said "in whole or in part" I was arguing to the notion that some have. That notion is not sound no matter how you come at it; with that I agree with you, too. I was not defining God there. I'm guessing you and I agree pretty thoroughly on at least what God is not. Stating what God is NOT is much easier to do than to accurately and concisely define God by positive statements, without inviting error.

Wyatt A. said:

It is true that He "caused, maintains and upholds our existence,".

HTacianas was going to the effort to reassure to ClearPerspective that the Bible is true and you can trust that God is present everywhere, in His creation, which should be reassuring rather than contradictive.

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Yes, and well done, too, for the most part. I only wanted to be sure that any notion would be contradicted that invites Pantheism or Animism. That was my only motive for objecting to the wording, "within God".

Akita Suggagaki said:

God's power? There is a mind boggler. For it is in weakness that strength reached perfection. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10.

1 Corinthians 1:18​

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

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I love that principle. When I think how he so often does things in the weakest most foolish ways, yet absolutely he accomplishes whatever he set out to do, it brings to mind a figure I used years ago in a Sunday School class, to show God's power: my little (at that time) daughter might stress to open the cap on a jar, and by force of effort exert the same amount of torque to loosen it as I would to do the same job, but having more control over my exertion, I don't drop the jar or slosh the contents as she would once the lid comes loose. I am stronger. God is infinitely strong. He can "run close to the edge of disaster" as he pleases —even run over the edge as we might measure it— over a period of thousands of years, yet using that very method [of imperfection] to perfectly accomplish everything he set out to do from the beginning.

Some atheists suggest that humanity should not have had to go through this years of suffering and trouble and confusion to get to the end that God has in mind —that he should have just spoken it into being. Leaving alone the question of whether he might have actually done exactly that, I note that this long vapor of temporal reality we inhabit includes Calvary, and that even after being born and going through his ministry, by right of his divinity he did not have to go through the humiliation and pain he went through (and I'm talking not just physical, but what he agonized over, alone in the garden, knowing what was going to happen and what it was going to cost). See, if he had not gone through with it, we could have questioned whether he was actually God. But the fact he went through with it, and emerged victorious, is something only God could have done.

Akita Suggagaki said:

I think that we are also at least made from God's will.

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I agree wholeheartedly. I'm glad to see you say so. It's almost humorous to me how we humans must differentiate in our thinking and language what is not differentiated in God's being. We deal with his Love, as if it is a separate reality from his justice or his will. Yet, we must admit, that if he is undifferentiated it doesn't mean he can't meter out anything about himself in whatever degree he chooses. Our concepts are only concepts —handles to keep us from getting too confused when we think about things.