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People Claiming To Be The Two Witnesses
- Thread starter Rick Scott
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StephenDisraeli
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The argument is too long to be presented briefly, but the premise in my own book is that the "Two witnesses" are not two human individuals at all.
The picture in Revelation ch11 represents the faithful Christian community witnessing in a double capacity- against persecution (the powers of Moses indicating the function of Moses), and also against idolatry and unfaithfulness (the powers of Elijah indicating the function of Elijah).
The picture in Revelation ch11 represents the faithful Christian community witnessing in a double capacity- against persecution (the powers of Moses indicating the function of Moses), and also against idolatry and unfaithfulness (the powers of Elijah indicating the function of Elijah).
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How could that be as Revelation calls them "two prophets"?
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StephenDisraeli
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That label is part of the picture being presented. It is a question of how literally every detail in that book is meant to be taken. You will remember that Jesus was going to ask his Father to send out harvesters into the field. "Being literal" is not always the best answer.
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- Dec 19, 2010
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- Matthew 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceiveyou. - Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. - Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. - Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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If you really read through the passages about the two witness and the power they hold, it is obvious it is no mere man nor is it a group or nation or even all the Christians collectively. Who has this kind of power ? Think about it.
John tells us who the witnesses are:
6This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. 8And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 John
Revelation tells us again who they are:
11 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. [a]And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2 But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the [b]God of the earth. 5 And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6 These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also [c]our Lord was crucified. 9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations [d]will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And [e]they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Revelation 11
Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. 15You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. 16And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. 17It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. 18I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.”
John 8
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- Feb 21, 2019
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Hi Stephen, welcome to the forum.
Can I get your thoughts on John the Baptist and how he relates to the two witnesses? Do you see him as a type or foreshadow?
Here is a list I have about the similarities of JtB and the two witnesses.
Matthew 11:14 JtB is called Elias (in some kind of way he represents 2 people, himself and Elijah)
Revelation 11:3 they are clothed in sackcloth. Mark 1:6 JtB was clothed with camel’s hair.
Revelation 11:7 when their testimony is finished the beast makes war, overcomes them, and kills them. Matthew 14:3 Herod puts JtB in prison, Matthew 11:2-3 JtB questions if Jesus is the Christ, and Matthew 14:10 JtB is beheaded.
Revelation 11:9-10 their dead bodies are in the street for 3 ½ days and they that dwell on the earth rejoice, make merry, and send gifts. From Mark 6:29 it is possible that JtB’s body was in the street for 3 ½ days because it was only after JtB’s disciples heard of his beheading that they came and got his body; also JtB was beheaded during Herod’s birthday party.
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StephenDisraeli
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In Matthew ch11 v11, Jesus calls John the "greatest" of those born before the kingdom of heaven appeared. In Luke ch7 v37, he explicitly identifies John as the messenger promised in Malachi ch3 v1. Then in Matthew ch17 v12, he has been asked about the promise at the end of Malachi that Elijah would come, and he reples that "Elijah has already come, and they did not know him".
For that reason I would call John the most important of the pre-Christian witnesses. He "is Elijah" in the sense that he has been specially appointed to have the function of Elijah, which is the point of the Malachi promise. The function of Elijah historically was to call the people back to their God and make them willing to be reconciled with their God.
But John is not literally Elijah. He denies being Elijah in John ch1 because he knows that his questioners are meaning it too literally. He is not contradicting Jesus, because he and Jesus are being asked different questions.
However, if the witnesses in Revelation ch11 are the witnessing church community, then their martyrdom and resurrection represents the martydom and final resurrection of the witnessing community.
For that reason I would call John the most important of the pre-Christian witnesses. He "is Elijah" in the sense that he has been specially appointed to have the function of Elijah, which is the point of the Malachi promise. The function of Elijah historically was to call the people back to their God and make them willing to be reconciled with their God.
But John is not literally Elijah. He denies being Elijah in John ch1 because he knows that his questioners are meaning it too literally. He is not contradicting Jesus, because he and Jesus are being asked different questions.
However, if the witnesses in Revelation ch11 are the witnessing church community, then their martyrdom and resurrection represents the martydom and final resurrection of the witnessing community.
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Well, just give it three and a half years then reevaluate the claims of these people in the OP.
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I don’t know if the two witnesses can be identified with 100% assurance, so I’m not arguing whether they are the church witnessing during the “church age” or not.
When John the Baptist questioned whether Jesus was the one, this seems to me that he was overcome. After all John the Baptist is the one who baptized Jesus and declared him to be the Lamb of God.
In Revelation 13:7 the beast overcomes the saints. I think this overcoming is best equated with John the Baptist questioning Jesus.
If the two witnesses are the church and the church is the saints, do you think the church will be overcome in a similar manner?
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StephenDisraeli
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To me, the "conquering of the saints" looks like a successful large-scale persecution, described again in v15 of the same chapter. That is, many would be martyred and the rest would go "underground". The same point is being made several times over.
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I see that, in Revelation 11:7 there are three things that happen to the two witnesses, war, overcome, and killed.
In Revelation 13:7 the beast makes war and overcomes. As you say when we get to verse 15 we see them being killed.
Here’s the problem for me, if this is referring to the church it goes against promises such as gates of hell will not prevail and that I will never leave thee or forsake thee.
Also in Daniel 7:25 they (saints) are given into his hand. I can understand if the “saints” is referring to Old Testament saints but not if it’s referring to New Testament saints.
Will the church be given to the beast?
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StephenDisraeli
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In brief, I think they would be conquered outwardly but not inwardly. Look back to the beginning of ch11; the area of those who worship is NOT given over to the nations when the holy city is trampled upon. That is the same kind of promise as that the gates of hell will not prevail, and refers, i believe, to the inward preservation of their faith (which is part of what is guaranteed by their "sealing" in ch7). The overcoming is outward, as I suggested earlier, and also temporary, as shown by the end of ch11 and by the end of Revelation as a whole. That assurance is the whole point of giving this book for the benefit of a church under persecution.
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Ok, thanks for that explanation.
One other thing that seems kinda off is that in Revelation 2 and 3 each of the churches are told they must overcome to be saved. The two witnesses are overcome and yet we know they are saved because they are resurrected.
Here’s what seems off, the saints will overcome while at the same time the beast will overcome. Since the Bible is written from the perspective of the believer, why would a believer think the beast is overcoming them? We know this is Gods will and hence our will.
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StephenDisraeli
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It helps if you keep in mind that words can mean different things in different circumstances. A child may be "big" in elation to a baby sister, and yet "little" in relation to a teenager. In the case of "overcome" the key is the difference between inward and outward. The churches are being told to "overcome" in the sense of preserving their faith, though some of them will be killed. The "overcoming" by the beast in ch11 and ch13 is purely outward. He thinks he's won, but he hasn't.
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Douggg
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I was trying to find the thread on the man and woman couple claiming to be the two witnesses, dressed in sack clothe. He was heavy set, and she wore a scarf covering her hair. They had some videos on You Tube in old Jersualem waling abound acting two witnesses like. But I can't find the thread nor the video. Does anyone here have a link ?
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Ok, so from the beasts perspective he has overcome but from the believers perspective the beast hasn’t.
When reading the Bible how can we discern from who’s perspective is it written from? For example the five wise and five foolish virgins. Could someone put forth the argument that the wise and foolish virgins are to be viewed from an unbelievers perspective? The wise are really the unsaved and the foolish are saved?
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