Was the gospel that Jesus preached to Israel under the law of Moses different to what Paul preached the world under grace ?

Vervey2023 · Dec 18, 2022

Gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of grace which one is it ?

This is just a quick study to outline the differences in the gospel that Jesus preached to the nation of israel and the gospel that is given to the gentiles by paul. I’m writing this so that we can recognise the differences between the two, the distinct purposes they both carry and how we should never blend the two together.

When Jesus arrived on the scene the first time 2000 years ago, he came specifically for the people of Israel and NOT the gentile nations.

Matthew 15:24

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

He even commanded the disciples only to go out and witness to Israel and not the gentile nations.

Matthew 10:5-7

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So we can see that in order to be eligible to enter this kingdom that Jesus was preaching you had to be of Jewish heritage.

This reason for this is because Jesus’s original objective was to bring in the prophesied earthly kingdom which was promised to Israel through their forefathers (David, Abraham ect...).

Jesus was ready to do this however Israel were not, they were not in the right state for this to occur. Therefore there were certain works that the entire nation of Israel needed to do, in order to get the nation as a whole into the right condition so that Jesus could then bring in the kingdom.

That’s why there’s lots of passages within the gospels that say things such as ”the kingdom is at hand” or the “kingdom is near”. The Gospel of the kingdom was something that was spoken of with a sense of urgency because Jesus was ready to implement it.

Matthew 10:6

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Now some of the things they were required to do were things like.....

Water baptism

Water baptism today is not a requirement for someone to be saved.

But back in this time in order to receive the Holy Spirit they had to be baptised.

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Everything that Jesus preached was pertaining to the nation of Israel.

However this is not the same under the gospel of grace, once someone puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ death burial and resurrection as full payment for their sin they receive the Holy Spirit at the very moment they make the decision to do this. We become baptised within the spirit.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we bebond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Jews were also required to sell all of their possessions if they wanted to inherit the kingdom and have everlasting life

Luke 12:32-33 KJV

[32] Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. [33] Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

Acts 2:44-45

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Even when the rich man asked what he must do to inherit eternal life Jesus said

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Another requirement is that they also had to forsake family too.

Matthew 19:29

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

From this we can gather if one wanted to inherit eternal life and gain access into the earthly kingdom Jesus was preaching one had to..

Believe in Jesus as messiah as well as

Sell all their possessions to their poor

Forsake unbelieving family

Be baptised

Keep the commandments

We can see from these scriptures that this gospel that Jesus preached required an element of works in order to be eligible to fufill its requirements.

Now let’s move onto the gospel of grace

Because israel rejected their messiah Jesus Christ, the kingdom that was going to be brought into action to them was postponed and God turned his attention to the gentiles. The bible says that israel is now in darkness until God is finished with the gentiles at the rapture.

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Because of this, a new gospel was given to the world in which we would be saved.

This is the gospel of grace that was given to Paul by Jesus Christ himself to be preached among the nations. Paul was raised up by God in order to instruct the gentiles on how to live their lives

Galatians 1:3-4

[3] Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, [4] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: …

Galatians 1:11-12

Galatians 1:11-12 KJV

[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. …

The gospel of grace is that

Salvation is now freely provided to anyone who simply believes in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins. It is completely void of works or behaviour and is a free gift given by solely by his grace through faith.

Romans 3:22-26

[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Ephesians 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So from this study we can conclude that both of the messages that Jesus preached to israel and what Paul taught the gentiles are two totally different gospels that are used for different purposes.

Many preachers today do not correctly rightly divide the word and instead blend the two together, which not only causes confusion amongst believers but produces a gospel of works.

I will state again, we are under the gospel of grace if anyone wants to receive eternal life and enter into a personal relationship with God. Then all one must do is believe that Jesus died and shed his blood for their sins.

if you would like to receive eternal life and enter into a personal relationship with God just simply believe, if your not sure how to pray then start praying this prayer with a genuine heart.

Dear God

I admit that I am a sinner. I have done many things that don’t please, I believe that your son Jesus Christ died on the cross for me, to save me and I believe that he risen from the dead three days later to pay the penalty for my sins so that I could be forgiven. You did what I could not do for myself. I come to you now and ask you to take control of my life, I give it to you. Help me to live every day in a way that pleases you. I love you, Lord, and I thank you that I will spend all eternity with you in Jesus’ name amen.

Guojing · Dec 18, 2022

You are correct, but you are preaching to the converted in this forum.

But well said, when did you realized this distinction, may I ask? Was it recently?

ozso · Dec 18, 2022

So basically there's supposedly the old new testament, and the new new testament.

Soyeong · Dec 19, 2022

campbell1498 said:
Gospel of the kingdom or the gospel of grace which one is it ?

This is just a quick study to outline the differences in the gospel that Jesus preached to the nation of israel and the gospel that is given to the gentiles by paul. I’m writing this so that we can recognise the differences between the two, the distinct purposes they both carry and how we should never blend the two together.

When Jesus arrived on the scene the first time 2000 years ago, he came specifically for the people of Israel and NOT the gentile nations.

Matthew 15:24

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

He even commanded the disciples only to go out and witness to Israel and not the gentile nations.

Matthew 10:5-7

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

So we can see that in order to be eligible to enter this kingdom that Jesus was preaching you had to be of Jewish heritage.

This reason for this is because Jesus’s original objective was to bring in the prophesied earthly kingdom which was promised to Israel through their forefathers (David, Abraham ect...).

Jesus was ready to do this however Israel were not, they were not in the right state for this to occur. Therefore there were certain works that the entire nation of Israel needed to do, in order to get the nation as a whole into the right condition so that Jesus could then bring in the kingdom.

That’s why there’s lots of passages within the gospels that say things such as ”the kingdom is at hand” or the “kingdom is near”. The Gospel of the kingdom was something that was spoken of with a sense of urgency because Jesus was ready to implement it.

Matthew 10:6

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mark 1:15

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

Matthew 4:17

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Now some of the things they were required to do were things like.....

Water baptism

Water baptism today is not a requirement for someone to be saved.

But back in this time in order to receive the Holy Spirit they had to be baptised.

Acts 2:38

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Everything that Jesus preached was pertaining to the nation of Israel.

However this is not the same under the gospel of grace, once someone puts their faith and trust in Jesus Christ death burial and resurrection as full payment for their sin they receive the Holy Spirit at the very moment they make the decision to do this. We become baptised within the spirit.

Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 1:13

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.

1 Corinthians 12:13

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we bebond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Jews were also required to sell all of their possessions if they wanted to inherit the kingdom and have everlasting life

Luke 12:32-33 KJV

[32] Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. [33] Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.

Acts 2:44-45

And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Even when the rich man asked what he must do to inherit eternal life Jesus said

Matthew 19:21

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Another requirement is that they also had to forsake family too.

Matthew 19:29

And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

From this we can gather if one wanted to inherit eternal life and gain access into the earthly kingdom Jesus was preaching one had to..

Believe in Jesus as messiah as well as

Sell all their possessions to their poor

Forsake unbelieving family

Be baptised

Keep the commandments

We can see from these scriptures that this gospel that Jesus preached required an element of works in order to be eligible to fufill its requirements.

Now let’s move onto the gospel of grace

Because israel rejected their messiah Jesus Christ, the kingdom that was going to be brought into action to them was postponed and God turned his attention to the gentiles. The bible says that israel is now in darkness until God is finished with the gentiles at the rapture.

Romans 11:25

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Because of this, a new gospel was given to the world in which we would be saved.

This is the gospel of grace that was given to Paul by Jesus Christ himself to be preached among the nations. Paul was raised up by God in order to instruct the gentiles on how to live their lives

Galatians 1:3-4

[3] Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, [4] Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: …

Galatians 1:11-12

Galatians 1:11-12 KJV

[11] But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. …

The gospel of grace is that

Salvation is now freely provided to anyone who simply believes in the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins. It is completely void of works or behaviour and is a free gift given by solely by his grace through faith.

Romans 3:22-26

[22] Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that BELIEVE: for there is no difference: [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [24] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his BLOOD, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Ephesians 1:7

In whom we have redemption through his BLOOD, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

1 Thessalonians 4:14

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Philippians 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

So from this study we can conclude that both of the messages that Jesus preached to israel and what Paul taught the gentiles are two totally different gospels that are used for different purposes.

Many preachers today do not correctly rightly divide the word and instead blend the two together, which not only causes confusion amongst believers but produces a gospel of works.

I will state again, we are under the gospel of grace if anyone wants to receive eternal life and enter into a personal relationship with God. Then all one must do is believe that Jesus died and shed his blood for their sins.

if you would like to receive eternal life and enter into a personal relationship with God just simply believe, if your not sure how to pray then start praying this prayer with a genuine heart.

Dear God

I admit that I am a sinner. I have done many things that don’t please, I believe that your son Jesus Christ died on the cross for me, to save me and I believe that he risen from the dead three days later to pay the penalty for my sins so that I could be forgiven. You did what I could not do for myself. I come to you now and ask you to take control of my life, I give it to you. Help me to live every day in a way that pleases you. I love you, Lord, and I thank you that I will spend all eternity with you in Jesus’ name amen.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which he commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations, teaching everything that he taught them (Matthew 28:16-20), so while there were instances where Jesus directed his disciples not to go to the Gentiles during his ministry, eligibility to enter the Kingdom that Jesus preached about was by no means limited to just those of Jewish heritage. Furthermore, the promises that were made through Abraham in regard to the Kingdom involved being a blessing to the nations so again it was not pertaining only to Israel. In Galatians 3:26-29, it equates those who are children of God through faith in Christ with those who are children of Abraham, heirs to the promise, so again these are not separate Gospels. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obediences in word and in deed, so his Gospel was on the same page as the one that Jesus taught in regard to teaching repentance from our sins, and you are wrongly dividing the word of God.

Vervey2023 · Dec 19, 2022

Guojing said:
You are correct, but you are preaching to the converted in this forum.

But well said, when did you realized this distinction, may I ask? Was it recently?

Soyeong said:
In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, which he prophesied would be proclaimed to all nations (Matthew 24:12-14), and which he commissioned his disciples to teach to the nations, teaching everything that he taught them (Matthew 28:16-20), so while there were instances where Jesus directed his disciples not to go to the Gentiles during his ministry, eligibility to enter the Kingdom that Jesus preached about was by no means limited to just those of Jewish heritage. Furthermore, the promises that were made through Abraham in regard to the Kingdom involved being a blessing to the nations so again it was not pertaining only to Israel. In Galatians 3:26-29, it equates those who are children of God through faith in Christ with those who are children of Abraham, heirs to the promise, so again these are not separate Gospels. In Romans 15:18-19, Paul's Gospel involved bringing Gentiles to obediences in word and in deed, so his Gospel was on the same page as the one that Jesus taught in regard to teaching repentance from our sins, and you are wrongly dividing the word of God.

Guojing said:
You are correct, but you are preaching to the converted in this forum.

But well said, when did you realized this distinction, may I ask? Was it recently?

Hey bro so it was definitely around 4 years ago in October of 2018 i recognised this distinction and it was through this YouTube video that I feel the lord led me to, one of the biggest blessings that could have happened in my life.

Guojing · Dec 19, 2022

campbell1498 said:
Hey bro so it was definitely around 4 years ago in October of 2018 i recognised this distinction and it was through this YouTube video that I feel the lord led me to, one of the biggest blessings that could have happened in my life.

Nice, mine was at 2018 too. My teachers then were Les Feldick and Cornelius R Stam.

I can understand your feeling. Once you are able to rightly divide the word of truth, so many contradictory passages in scripture made perfect sense to me.

Soyeong · Dec 19, 2022

campbell1498 said:
Hey bro so it was definitely around 4 years ago in October of 2018 i recognised this distinction and it was through this YouTube video that I feel the lord led me to, one of the biggest blessings that could have happened in my life.

I copied my post into the thread you made in General Theology because I raised some major problems with what you said that need to be addressed.

In regard to your video, while it is good to correctly understand who the audience is, it is not good to hack Scripture into so many pieces that Paul is essentially teaching a different religion than the disciples. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denies that we can earn our salvation as a wage lest anyone should boast, he did not speak against the role of works in our salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by living in obedience to it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents, and we could not accurately be considered as being saved from not honoring our parents apart from honoring them. Likewise, while Paul denies in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our salvation as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. So Paul's Gospel was on the same page as the one that the disciples taught.

We are not told to separate Christ's words from Paul's words as if they taught two different religions that weren't in agreement with each other. The Gospel of the circumcision has the same content as the Gospel of the uncircumcision, but it is directed at different audiences. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the way of salvation by grace through faith, Paul's Gospel of grace was not a separate message.

Paul never stopped identifying as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), so it is false that there are no Jews in the body. Furthermore, there are many places where the Bible clearly refers to those who are Greeks, Jews, slaves, free, men, or women, so Paul was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but what denying that they gave someone a higher status when it came to being in Christ. Jesus and his disciples were all Jews, and as Christians we are followers of what they taught, so we should be careful not to try to remove Christianity from that context. Saying that they want to be back under the law because they are in the flesh is absurd when the Bible lists works of the flesh as being against the law, such as in Galatians 5:19-22. Romans 10:9-10 should not be removed from the context of Romans 10:5-8 referencing Deuteronomy 30:11-16.

Guojing · Dec 19, 2022

Soyeong said:
I copied my post into the thread you made in General Theology because I raised some major problems with what you said that need to be addressed.

In regard to your video, while it is good to correctly understand who the audience is, it is not good to hack Scripture into so many pieces that Paul is essentially teaching a different religion than the disciples. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denies that we can earn our salvation as a wage lest anyone should boast, he did not speak against the role of works in our salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by living in obedience to it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents, and we could not accurately be considered as being saved from not honoring our parents apart from honoring them. Likewise, while Paul denies in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our salvation as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. So Paul's Gospel was on the same page as the one that the disciples taught.

We are not told to separate Christ's words from Paul's words as if they taught two different religions that weren't in agreement with each other. The Gospel of the circumcision has the same content as the Gospel of the uncircumcision, but it is directed at different audiences. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the way of salvation by grace through faith, Paul's Gospel of grace was not a separate message.

Paul never stopped identifying as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), so it is false that there are no Jews in the body. Furthermore, there are many places where the Bible clearly refers to those who are Greeks, Jews, slaves, free, men, or women, so Paul was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but what denying that they gave someone a higher status when it came to being in Christ. Jesus and his disciples were all Jews, and as Christians we are followers of what they taught, so we should be careful not to try to remove Christianity from that context. Saying that they want to be back under the law because they are in the flesh is absurd when the Bible lists works of the flesh as being against the law, such as in Galatians 5:19-22. Romans 10:9-10 should not be removed from the context of Romans 10:5-8 referencing Deuteronomy 30:11-16.

You consider yourself a Messianic Jew?

Soyeong · Dec 19, 2022

Guojing said:
You consider yourself a Messianic Jew?

Indeed. Why?

Guojing · Dec 19, 2022

Soyeong said:
Indeed. Why?

Just trying to understand the background you are coming from, so that I can understand the doctrines you have stated in your reply are from.

Generally, people don't change their minds about them. They believe those doctrines are true first, and they then use selected scriptures to justify those doctrines.

Vervey2023 · Dec 20, 2022

Soyeong said:
Indeed. Why?

<Staff Edit> When Jesus told all Jews to preach the gospel to all nations, there were israeli Jews all around the world that needed to hear this gospel which Jesus referred to as “lost sheep” (John 10:16), another part of this gospel is that during the kingdom Gentiles were to be ruled and put under the feet of israel, they will recognise that Gods hand of blessing is exclusively on the Jews, that’s why when the Canaanite Gentile woman approached Jesus for healing he called her a dog but when she realised her place as being beneath the Jews he blessed her (Matthew 15:21-28, Zechariah 8:22-23, Daniel 7:27,) this was representative of the Gentiles role within this gospel how the future millennial kingdom is going to work.

Also in the time of the 7 year tribulation this gospel will be preached again in which Gentiles will have serve and help Jews in order to be saved and worthy of the kingdom (Matthew 28:24-36). This gospel contains works and during this time period salvation is earned through obedience you can’t get around that (Matthew 19:16-17)

This is a stark contrast to the gospel of grace in which we are saved by today, our blessings do not come from Israel we have direct access to God by faith alone in Christ Jesus death for our sins, the nation of Israel has been cut off and placed in darkness for a temporary time and gentiles have been grafted into having an opportunity to come to salvation. (Romans 3:21-26, Romans 11:10-26, Ephesians 2:8-9)

Paul already it clear that one we are saved our old man in Adam is crucified and from Gods perspective he views as a new creation in Christ. Of course as we are still in our flesh on this earth we physically speaking we are still the same as nothing happened to our flesh upon salvation however we will be changed at the rapture ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). So until then there’s nothing wrong with saying, your black white or Jewish, however those things should not dictate to how one lives for God, if there’s things about your culture which are ungodly then we are to throw it away which is why Paul said he counted all his traditions including the law he grew up with as dung (Philippians 3:1-8,).

Paul said that those that are in Christ are no longer under the law of Moses and all it’s ordinances neither does God see Jew or Gentiles but a new creature in Christ which again is different under the gospel of circumcision. (Galatians 3:28 romans 10:4, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14).

Also salvation has never been by grace through faith until Paul, in the old testament there were situations in which God applied grace to escape earthly situations such as Noah being given grace to escape the flood or king escaping death for his sin of adultery and murder. However you will never find a scripture within the OT of anyone entering heaven by grace through faith alone, you had obey the law to be in right standing with God.

There are so many distinctions from our gospel during this dispensation of grace vs that which was preached to the Jews, yet you willfully choose to ignore them.

Soyeong · Dec 25, 2022

campbell1498 said:
<Staff Edit> When Jesus told all Jews to preach the gospel to all nations, there were israeli Jews all around the world that needed to hear this gospel which Jesus referred to as “lost sheep” (John 10:16), another part of this gospel is that during the kingdom Gentiles were to be ruled and put under the feet of israel, they will recognise that Gods hand of blessing is exclusively on the Jews, that’s why when the Canaanite Gentile woman approached Jesus for healing he called her a dog but when she realised her place as being beneath the Jews he blessed her (Matthew 15:21-28, Zechariah 8:22-23, Daniel 7:27,) this was representative of the Gentiles role within this gospel how the future millennial kingdom is going to work.

Jesus did not come teaching his own religion apart from Judaism, but rather he came as the prophesied Messiah of Judaism and he spent his ministry teaching his followers how practice Judaism by setting a sinless example of how to obey the Torah. In Acts 21:20-24, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith in accordance with believing in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Titus 2:14), so Jews coming to faith were not ceasing to obey the Torah. This means that there was a period of time in between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews, so Christianity at is origin was the form of Judaism that recognized that Jesus is the Messiah, and Messianic Judaism is the form of Judaism that recognizes Jesus as the Messiah. So the Bible does not teach against identifying as being Messianic Jews, but rather all of the earliest Christians were Messianic Jews. Furthermore, the religion that is described being practiced in the OT prophesies of the Millennial Kingdom is nothing other than Messianic Judaism.

In Matthew 4:15, the word Greek word "ethnos" refers to the Gospel being a light to the Gentiles. Likewise:

Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus taught was made known in advance to Abraham in accordance with the promise and the people in Haran that he taught it to were not Jews (Genesis 12:1-5), and this Gospel was promised to bless all of the nations of the earth, so it was by no means limited only to Jews. In Ephesians 3:6, Paul said that mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the Gospel, so according to Paul, the Gospel is also in regard to Gentiles, and Gentiles don't have an inferior position in the Kingdom. In Galatians 3:26-29, those who are children of God through faith in Christ are equated with those who are children of Abraham, heirs to the promise.

campbell1498 said:
Also in the time of the 7 year tribulation this gospel will be preached again in which Gentiles will have serve and help Jews in order to be saved and worthy of the kingdom (Matthew 28:24-36). This gospel contains works and during this time period salvation is earned through obedience you can’t get around that (Matthew 19:16-17)

Someone could have any number of reasons for choosing to obey God's law, so the Jesus saying that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments does not imply that he was speaking about earning salvation through our obedience as a wage.

Here are some verses that speak against earning our salvation/eternal life as a wage: Romans 3:28, Romans 4:4-5, Ephesians 2:9-10, Titus 3:5, Galatians 2:21, Galatians 3:21.

Here are some verses that say that our salvation/eternal life nevertheless still requires us to choose to obey the Torah: Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 2:11-14, Galatians 3:26-29, James 2:17-24, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:16-17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14.

So there must be a reasons why our salvation/eternal life requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law.

campbell1498 said:
This is a stark contrast to the gospel of grace in which we are saved by today, our blessings do not come from Israel we have direct access to God by faith alone in Christ Jesus death for our sins, the nation of Israel has been cut off and placed in darkness for a temporary time and gentiles have been grafted into having an opportunity to come to salvation. (Romans 3:21-26, Romans 11:10-26, Ephesians 2:8-9)

Again, in Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so Romans 3:21-26 is not in contrast with it. If God did not spare the natural branches, then He will not spare those that have been grafted in, so Gentiles being grafted in to Israel is in accordance with the other branches, not in contrast with them. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creation in Christ to do good works, so again it is not in contrast with doing them.

campbell1498 said:
Paul already it clear that one we are saved our old man in Adam is crucified and from Gods perspective he views as a new creation in Christ. Of course as we are still in our flesh on this earth we physically speaking we are still the same as nothing happened to our flesh upon salvation however we will be changed at the rapture ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). So until then there’s nothing wrong with saying, your black white or Jewish, however those things should not dictate to how one lives for God, if there’s things about your culture which are ungodly then we are to throw it away which is why Paul said he counted all his traditions including the law he grew up with as dung (Philippians 3:1-8,).

In 1 John 2:4, those who say that they know Jesus, but don't obey his commands are liars, in 1 John 3:4-6, those who continue to practice sin in transgression of God's law have neither seen nor known him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3). So Philippians 3:1-8 should not be interpreted as saying that the law is dung and we should need to know Jesus. Rather, Paul had been obeying the law without being focused on knowing Christ, so he had been missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he referred to as being dung.

campbell1498 said:
Paul said that those that are in Christ are no longer under the law of Moses and all it’s ordinances neither does God see Jew or Gentiles but a new creature in Christ which again is different under the gospel of circumcision. (Galatians 3:28 romans 10:4, Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14).

Every time that the Greek word "dogma" is used by the Bible outside of Ephesians 2:15 and Colossians 2:14, it refers to something other than the law of Moses, so you need to give justification for interpreting those verses as referring to the law of Moses, especially in light of Psalms 119:160, which says that all of God's righteous laws are eternal.

In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were by works in an effort to establish their own rather than by pursuing it through faith in Christ, for Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, this faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 in regard to saying that the law of Moses is not too difficult to obey, that the one who obeys it will attain life by it, and in regard to what we are agreeing to obey when we confess that Jesus is Lord. Nothing in this passage has anything to do with saying that we are no longer under the law of Moses, but just the opposite.

campbell1498 said:
Also salvation has never been by grace through faith until Paul, in the old testament there were situations in which God applied grace to escape earthly situations such as Noah being given grace to escape the flood or king escaping death for his sin of adultery and murder. However you will never find a scripture within the OT of anyone entering heaven by grace through faith alone, you had obey the law to be in right standing with God.

Again, I cited Psalms 119:29-30 to support that David was saved by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, which again is salvation/eternal life by grace through faith (John 17:3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as Abraham, the others listed in Hebrews 11, and everyone else. So salvation by grace through faith does not mean that we do not need to obey God's law, but just the opposite.

campbell1498 said:
There are so many distinctions from our gospel during this dispensation of grace vs that which was preached to the Jews, yet you willfully choose to ignore them.

There are many examples of God expressing His grace throughout both the OT and the NT, so it is incorrect to act like grace was something invented in the NT.

AbbaLove · Jan 11, 2023

Was the gospel that Jesus preached different to Israel under the law of Moses different to what Paul preached the world under grace

Yes and No! A partial compromise may be the growing 21st century movement referred to as the Hebraic/Jewish Roots Of Christianity.

As a sort of "bridge" between Messianic Judaism theology and mainstream Christian theology ...

Hebrew Roots - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This difference first became apparent with Paul's preaching to the "Christians" at Antioch ... Galatians 2:11-14 and 15-16 ...

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles

16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Soyeong · Jan 11, 2023

AbbaLove said:
Yes and No! A partial compromise may be the growing 21st century movement referred to as the Hebraic/Jewish Roots Of Christianity.

As a sort of "bridge" between Messianic Judaism theology and mainstream Christian theology ...

Hebrew Roots - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This difference first became apparent with Paul's preaching to the "Christians" at Antioch ... Galatians 2:11-14 and 15-16 ...

15 “We who are Jews by birth and not sinful Gentiles
16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[d] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that works of the are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase “works of the law” does not refer to anything that God has commanded, such as the Law of Moses. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God’s law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can’t be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. So Galatians 2:11-16 is not speaking about a difference as you suggest, especially when Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of God’s law will be justified.

Dan Perez · Jan 11, 2023

Soyeong said:
I copied my post into the thread you made in General Theology because I raised some major problems with what you said that need to be addressed.

In regard to your video, while it is good to correctly understand who the audience is, it is not good to hack Scripture into so many pieces that Paul is essentially teaching a different religion than the disciples. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denies that we can earn our salvation as a wage lest anyone should boast, he did not speak against the role of works in our salvation. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation by living in obedience to it, living in obedience to it is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents, and we could not accurately be considered as being saved from not honoring our parents apart from honoring them. Likewise, while Paul denies in Romans 4:4-5 that we can earn our salvation as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our salvation requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith upholds God's law. So Paul's Gospel was on the same page as the one that the disciples taught.

We are not told to separate Christ's words from Paul's words as if they taught two different religions that weren't in agreement with each other. The Gospel of the circumcision has the same content as the Gospel of the uncircumcision, but it is directed at different audiences. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted God to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the way of salvation by grace through faith, Paul's Gospel of grace was not a separate message.

Paul never stopped identifying as a Jew (Acts 21:39, 22:3), so it is false that there are no Jews in the body. Furthermore, there are many places where the Bible clearly refers to those who are Greeks, Jews, slaves, free, men, or women, so Paul was not denying the reality of these distinctions, but what denying that they gave someone a higher status when it came to being in Christ. Jesus and his disciples were all Jews, and as Christians we are followers of what they taught, so we should be careful not to try to remove Christianity from that context. Saying that they want to be back under the law because they are in the flesh is absurd when the Bible lists works of the flesh as being against the law, such as in Galatians 5:19-22. Romans 10:9-10 should not be removed from the context of Romans 10:5-8 referencing Deuteronomy 30:11-16.

But , in Eph 2:8 , Paul does say in Eph 2:8 For by grace you are having been saved , NOR / OU and this Greek word is a DISJUCATIVE PARTICILE NEGATIVE and means NEVER , CANNOT BE , EVER by WORKS >

DAN P

Soyeong · Jan 11, 2023

Dan Perez said:
But , in Eph 2:8 , Paul does say in Eph 2:8 For by grace you are having been saved , NOR / OU and this Greek word is a DISJUCATIVE PARTICILE NEGATIVE and means NEVER , CANNOT BE , EVER by WORKS >

DAN P

Good works can be done for any number of reasons, such as to avoid hell, in order to look pious, in order to earn our righteousness as a wage, in order to express our faith in God, in order to express our love for God, in order to build godly character, in order to grow in a relationship with God, or in order to bring about the restoration of the worlds, some of which are correct while others are not, so we should be careful not to mistake what was only said against incorrect reasons for doing good works as being against the correct reasons. I can cite many verses like Romans 4:4-5 that deny that we can earn our righteousness as a wage and many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the law will be declared righteous, so there much be reasons that our righteousness requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage. In Ephesians 2:8, it speaks against reasons that would give us something to inappropriately boast about, but that wouldn't be the case for a number of the reasons that I listed. For example, if we could earn our righteousness as a wage, then that would give us something to boast in ourselves about, but if do good works because we are relying on God to rightly guide us, then that gives us nothing to boast in ourselves.

Again, doing good works in obedience to God's law is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing good works in obedience to it, so Ephesians 2:8 is nor denying that doing good works is intrinsically part of our salvation, especially when Ephesians 2:10 says that we are new creations in Christ to do good works, but rather it is speaking against incorrect reason for doing good works that give us something to boast about.

Dan Perez · Jan 12, 2023

The verse in Eph 2:8 is NOT against Good works , but is against Good Works to be saved .

There are BAD WORKS and there are GOOD WORKS as verse 10 says , created in Christ UNTO GOOD WORKS and I believe that is what Eph 2:8-10 is saying .

dan p

Soyeong · Jan 12, 2023

Dan Perez said:
The verse in Eph 2:8 is NOT against Good works , but is against Good Works to be saved .

There are BAD WORKS and there are GOOD WORKS as verse 10 says , created in Christ UNTO GOOD WORKS and I believe that is what Eph 2:8-10 is saying .

dan p

Ephesians 2:8 is not speaking against doing good works in order to become saved but against being saved by works done for the purpose of boasting. Again, there can be any number of reasons for doing good works, so the Bible speaking against doing good works in order to earn our salvation as a wage should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to do good works for a correct reason. You are ignoring the fact that doing good works is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing good works, as well as many other verses that confirm that we need to choose to do good works in order to become saved and have eternal life, such as Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 3:26-29 Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14.

Dan Perez · Jan 13, 2023

Soyeong said:
Ephesians 2:8 is not speaking against doing good works in order to become saved but against being saved by works done for the purpose of boasting. Again, there can be any number of reasons for doing good works, so the Bible speaking against doing good works in order to earn our salvation as a wage should not be mistaken as speaking against our salvation requiring us to choose to do good works for a correct reason. You are ignoring the fact that doing good works is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing good works, as well as many other verses that confirm that we need to choose to do good works in order to become saved and have eternal life, such as Romans 2:6-7, Romans 2:13, Romans 3:31, Romans 6:19-23, Ephesians 2:10, Galatians 3:26-29 Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, and Revelation 22:14.

I forgot to ADD Eph 2:10 , For we are his handiwork , having been CREATED in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS which God prepared previously in order that we should regulate our lives by them .

dan p

Soyeong · Jan 14, 2023

Dan Perez said:
I forgo to ADD Eph 2:10 , For we are his handiwork , having been CREATED in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS which God prepared previously in order that we should regulate our lives by them .

dan p

In Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul did not deny the role of works in regard to our salvation, but spoke about an incorrect and a correct role of works. Again, please address that the doing good works is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing good works.

Was the gospel that Jesus preached to Israel under the law of Moses different to what Paul preached the world under grace ?

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