Universal Redemption in the early church

Jeff Saunders · Dec 10, 2022

If Universal Redemption is a heresy why was it not brought up as heresy for the first 500 years of the church? Several things were condemned as hereby the earthly church but this was not one of them. Would not those who spoke the native Greek language of that day call it heretic it was ? It seems that it became heresy only after Augustine and the influence of the Latin thinking.

Aussie Pete · Dec 10, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
If Universal Redemption is a heresy why was it not brought up as heresy for the first 500 years of the church? Several things were condemned as hereby the earthly church but this was not one of them. Would not those who spoke the native Greek language of that day call it heretic it was ? It seems that it became heresy only after Augustine and the influence of the Latin thinking.

The early Church was perhaps too busy introducing its own heresies.

Sabertooth · Dec 10, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
If Universal Redemption is a heresy why was it not brought up as heresy for the first 500 years of the church...? ...It seems that it became heresy only after Augustine and the influence of the Latin thinking.

Jesus said,
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,

but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not

prophesied in Your name,

cast out demons in Your name, and

done many wonders in Your name?’

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;

depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ " Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV

And,
“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men,

him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

But whoever denies Me before men,

him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33 NKJV

Also,
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,

and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;

but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Revelation 3:5 NKJV

U No Who, Phil Johnson & Kim Peery (1985)

Jonaitis · Dec 10, 2022

Sabertooth said:
Jesus said...

Some who believe it might quote a verse like this:

"We have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe."
- 1 Timothy 4:10

An isolated verse, for sure, but it is a strange one. What are your thoughts on this text?

Sabertooth · Dec 10, 2022

I do not know, but I will not disregard three texts that are clear just because someone can produce an unclear one. I will get to that lesson when the Holy Spirit is ready.

Jonaitis · Dec 10, 2022

Sabertooth said:
I do not know, but I will not disregard three texts that are clear just because someone can produce an unclear one. I will get to that lesson when the Holy Spirit is ready.

Well, they may argue from the three texts you provided that Jesus only refers to Judgement Day.

Jeff Saunders · Dec 11, 2022

Jonaitis said:
Some who believe it might quote a verse like this:

An isolated verse, for sure, but it is a strange one. What are your thoughts on this text?

You would be correct if that were the only verse but there are many like it

Jeff Saunders · Dec 11, 2022

Sabertooth said:
Jesus said,
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,

but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not

prophesied in Your name,
cast out demons in Your name, and
done many wonders in Your name?’
And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you;

depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ " Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV

And,
“Therefore whoever confesses Me before men,

him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
But whoever denies Me before men,

him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." Matthew 10:32-33 NKJV

Also,
"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments,

and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life;
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Revelation 3:5 NKJV

U No Who, Phil Johnson & Kim Peery (1985)

All those verses are about this age not the age to come. So yes these are true but why do you assume that they can’t repent and believe in the next age?

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
All those verses are about this age not the age to come. So yes these are true but why do you assume that they can’t repent and believe in the next age?

Scripture to support post death repentance and salvation?

[1]Psalms 115:17

(17) The dead praise not the LORD,[יהוה/YHWH], neither any that go down into silence;

[2]Psalms 6:5

(5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the nether-world [שׁאול /sheol] who will give you thanks?

[3]Psalms 30:9 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth?

[4]Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom you [יהוה/YHWH, v.1] remember no more: and they are cut off from your hand.

[5]Psalms 88:10-12

(10) (88:11) Will you work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give you thanks? Selah

(11) (88:12) Shall your mercy be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction?

(12) (88:13) Shall your wonders be known in the dark? and your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

[6]Isaiah 38:18

(18) For the grave [/size] שׁאול/sheol] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your truth.

[7]Proverbs 24:20

(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.

[8]Ecclesiastes 9:5

(5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

[9]Isaiah 26:14

(14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.. You ,[יהוה/YHWH]] punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.

[10]Psalms 49:17-19

(17) For when he dies he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.

(18) Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise you, when you do well to yourself.

(19) He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
All those verses are about this age not the age to come. So yes these are true but why do you assume that they can’t repent and believe in the next age?

Totally false. Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus said "in that day, [i.e. Judgment day], many will say to me Lord, Lord..." but Jesus will say "I never knew you depart from me you who work iniquity." When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by. If you can, show me that vs, which speaks about post death repentance and salvation?

Jeff Saunders · Dec 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
Scripture to support post death repentance and salvation?

[1]Psalms 115:17
(17) The dead praise not the LORD,[יהוה/YHWH], neither any that go down into silence;
[2]Psalms 6:5
(5) (6:6) For in death there is no remembrance of you; in the nether-world [שׁאול /sheol] who will give you thanks?
[3]Psalms 30:9 'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise you? shall it declare your truth?
[4]Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom you [יהוה/YHWH, v.1] remember no more: and they are cut off from your hand.
[5]Psalms 88:10-12
(10) (88:11) Will you work wonders for the dead? Or shall the shades arise and give you thanks? Selah
(11) (88:12) Shall your mercy be declared in the grave? or your faithfulness in destruction?
(12) (88:13) Shall your wonders be known in the dark? and your righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
[6]Isaiah 38:18
(18) For the grave [/size] שׁאול/sheol] cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your truth.
[7]Proverbs 24:20
(20) For there will be no future to the evil man, the lamp of the wicked shall be put out.
[8]Ecclesiastes 9:5
(5) For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[9]Isaiah 26:14
(14) They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise.. You ,[יהוה/YHWH]] punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
[10]Psalms 49:17-19
(17) For when he dies he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him.
(18) Though while he lived he blessed his soul: and men will praise you, when you do well to yourself.
(19) He shall go to the generation of his fathers; they shall never see light.

So you believe that the dead from the OT times are not part of the resurrection? All these verses are talking about those who have died before Jesus. Ps 88:5 Yahweh remembers them no more ? So you think that God is like man and can’t remember something? Is 26:14 are these not part of the resurrection?

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
If Universal Redemption is a heresy why was it not brought up as heresy for the first 500 years of the church? Several things were condemned as hereby the earthly church but this was not one of them. Would not those who spoke the native Greek language of that day call it heretic it was ? It seems that it became heresy only after Augustine and the influence of the Latin thinking.

Logical fallacy. Argument from silence. The absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence. The early church countered heresy by publishing the truth.

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
So you believe that the dead from the OT times are not part of the resurrection? All these verses are talking about those who have died before Jesus. Ps 88:5 Yahweh remembers them no more ? So you think that God is like man and can’t remember something? Is 26:14 are these not part of the resurrection?

I don't know about you but I have found that it really helps to actually read a post before trying to respond. Where is resurrection mentioned in any vs. I quoted? Well, if, according to you. we can't trust Ps 88:5 what can we trust? Just the vss. which seem to support UR? I would be glad to dissect your interpretation of Is 26:14. So you think God cannot choose to forget something?

Jeff Saunders · Dec 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
Totally false. Matthew 7:21-23 Jesus said "in that day, [i.e. Judgment day], many will say to me Lord, Lord..." but Jesus will say "I never knew you depart from me you who work iniquity." When Jesus says never, He means never not someday by and by. If you can, show me that vs, which speaks about post death repentance and salvation?

I don’t know how many times I have to go over this but why not one more time. If you believe that what Jesus said “ no one comes to the Father but through me” then all those who died from Adam till The new covenant either have to accept Jesus to get to the Father, unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. And if he did it once why would he not do it again?

Jeff Saunders · Dec 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
I don't know about you but I have found that it really helps to actually read a post before trying to respond. Where is resurrection mentioned in any vs. I quoted? Well, if, according to you. we can't trust Ps 88:5 what can we trust? Just the vss. which seem to support UR? I would be glad to dissect your interpretation of Is 26:14. So you think God cannot choose to forget something?

If you think Yahweh can choose to forget then you really don’t understand Him . Scripture must be interpreted through Yahwehs nature if our understanding or lack there of goes against that nature then we have it wrong. If Yahweh could choose to forget, that implies that there is something that He does not know and that is impossible. Unless we make Yahweh out to have human attributes like the pagan gods of old.

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
If you think Yahweh can choose to forget then you really don’t understand Him . Scripture must be interpreted through Yahwehs nature if our understanding or lack there of goes against that nature then we have it wrong. If Yahweh could choose to forget, that implies that there is something that He does not know and that is impossible. Unless we make Yahweh out to have human attributes like the pagan gods of old.

Hey, you don't like what scripture says go talk to God, I only quoted it. I'm not the author. Here it is again. Right there in the Bible.

Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom you [יהוה/YHWH, v.1] remember no more: and they are cut off from your hand.

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
I don’t know how many times I have to go over this but why not one more time. If you believe that what Jesus said “ no one comes to the Father but through me” then all those who died from Adam till The new covenant either have to accept Jesus to get to the Father, unless you believe that there are multiple paths to the Father. And if he did it once why would he not do it again?

How does this address my post where I quoted Matthew 7:21-23? If you want to talk about something else. Start a new thread. I know the answer and you would too if you studied scripture correctly instead of only searching out vss. which seem to support your UR assumptions/presuppositions and ignoring everything that doesn't.

Jeff Saunders · Dec 11, 2022

Der Alte said:
Hey, you don't like what scripture says go talk to God, I only quoted it. I'm not the author. Here it is again. Right there in the Bible.

Psalms 88:5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom you [יהוה/YHWH, v.1] remember no more: and they are cut off from your hand.

Hey , you don’t like what scripture says go talk to God, I only quoted it. I’m not the author. Here it is again. Right there in the Bible. John 12:32 “ if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ( Greek word is drag) all men unto me”

Saint Steven · Dec 11, 2022

Sabertooth said:
I do not know, but I will not disregard three texts that are clear just because someone can produce an unclear one. I will get to that lesson when the Holy Spirit is ready.

No time like the present. - LOL

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

Der Alte · Dec 11, 2022

Jeff Saunders said:
Hey , you don’t like what scripture says go talk to God, I only quoted it. I’m not the author. Here it is again. Right there in the Bible. John 12:32 “ if I be lifted up from the earth I will draw ( Greek word is drag) all men unto me”

I call your John 12:32 and raise you a Matthew 7:21-23. Which OBTW invalidates your interpretation of Jn 12:32.

Universal Redemption in the early church

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Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!

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Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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You can call me Steve

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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