Maybe Protestants are still too Catholic

Daniel Peres · Dec 10, 2022

On this forum, I have come to realize that Protestants don’t just disagree with the Catholic Church, they also disagree with the Protestant Reformers for being too Catholic.

I think it’s clear that 22nd century Protestants will look back on you guys and say, “Those 21st century Protestants meant well, but they were still too Catholic.”

public hermit · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
On this forum, I have come to realize that Protestants don’t just disagree with the Catholic Church, they also disagree with the Protestant Reformers for being too Catholic.

I think it’s clear that 22nd century Protestants will look back on you guys and say, “Those 21st century Protestants meant well, but they were still too Catholic.”

Can you give some examples?

Daniel Peres · Dec 10, 2022

public hermit said:
Can you give some examples?

Contraception for one. What about baptism and salvation. I could go on forever. You really don’t know the teachings of the Reformers and how Catholic they really were compared to modern Protestants?

public hermit · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
Contraception for one. What about baptism and salvation. I could go on forever. You really don’t know the teachings of the Reformers and how Catholic they really were compared to modern Protestants?

How do today's Protestants differ in their understanding of baptism and salvation from the Reformers? I don't think your broad brush is going to pick out the proper details. Lutherans still hold, more or less, to the understanding of Luther. Those who are Reformed are going to reflect a Reformed understanding. Baptists, depending on the flavor, will reflect Zwinglian or Anabaptist understandings. This is why I asked for examples. It depends on what and who you are referencing. If your target critique is non-denoms, then you're likely to find some who reflect understandings of the Reformers and some who don't.

Daniel Peres · Dec 10, 2022

public hermit said:
How do today's Protestants differ in their understanding of baptism and salvation from the Reformers? I don't think your broad brush is going to pick out the proper details. Lutherans still hold, more or less, to the understanding of Luther. Those who are Reformed are going to reflect a Reformed understanding. Baptists, depending on the flavor, will reflect Zwinglian or Anabaptist understandings. This is why I asked for examples. It depends on what and who you are referencing. If your target critique is non-denoms, then you're likely to find some who reflect understandings of the Reformers and some who don't.

1) Luther and Calvin believed that baptism saved, not to mention that both believed in infant Baptism.

2) Lutherans and Calvinists have changed. I’ll give two examples. About two months ago I posted about a pamphlet of Luther where he taught that Christians must perform good works or they are not Christians. Lutherans responded to the post saying Martin Luther was wise but still too Catholic. What about Calvin and the Eucharist. Calvin believed the Eucharist was salvific. I’ve never heard a modern Calvinist say that the Eucharist is salvific.

Jonaitis · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
On this forum, I have come to realize that Protestants don’t just disagree with the Catholic Church, they also disagree with the Protestant Reformers for being too Catholic.

I think it’s clear that 22nd century Protestants will look back on you guys and say, “Those 21st century Protestants meant well, but they were still too Catholic.”

Calvin's position on infant baptism (and the mode of sprinkling) is too Catholic for me, tis true. His covenant theology was built to defend it, which was one of his flaws.

Jonaitis · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
Calvin believed that baptism saved

PLEASE SHOW ME IN HIS INSTITUTES

Please don't make ignorant statements like this.

Daniel Peres · Dec 10, 2022

Jonaitis said:
Calvin's position on infant baptism (and the mode of sprinkling) is too Catholic for me, tis true. His covenant theology was built to defend it, which was one of his flaws.

So what do you think 22nd century Protestants will say about you? Unlike Catholicism, Protestants are prone to change, and they will continue changing, because there is nothing to stop the change.

Jonaitis · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
So what do you think 22nd century Protestants will say about you? Unlike Catholicism, Protestants are prone to change, and they will continue changing, because there is nothing to stop the change.

I'm more of 17th century Protestant with 21st century tweaks and revisions. Neo-Protestant?

Jonaitis · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
So what do you think 22nd century Protestants will say about you? Unlike Catholicism, Protestants are prone to change, and they will continue changing, because there is nothing to stop the change.

Oh, to answer your question, I might end up agreeing with them if they correct the flaws the Church has today.

Semper Reformanda!!!

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
On this forum, I have come to realize that Protestants don’t just disagree with the Catholic Church, they also disagree with the Protestant Reformers for being too Catholic.

I think it’s clear that 22nd century Protestants will look back on you guys and say, “Those 21st century Protestants meant well, but they were still too Catholic.”

The Reformers didn't object to everything in Catholicism, just some things which were abuses or errors.
Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

public hermit · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
1) Luther and Calvin believed that baptism saved, not to mention that both believed in infant Baptism.

2) Lutherans and Calvinists have changed. I’ll give two examples. About two months ago I posted about a pamphlet of Luther where he taught that Christians must perform good works or they are not Christians. Lutherans responded to the post saying Martin Luther was wise but still too Catholic. What about Calvin and the Eucharist. Calvin believed the Eucharist was salvific. I’ve never heard a modern Calvinist say that the Eucharist is salvific.

I guess you'll have to define what you mean by salvific. I can't speak for Luther, but Calvin believed the Eucharist was a means of grace. Is that what you mean? He certainly held a widely different understanding of how that works compared to RCC. The substance of the elements are not transformed, pace Aquinas, nor is Christ present like Luther, but the HS unites the one who partakes with Christ who is w/the Father. Unlike Luther, Calvin did not believe the ascended Christ is ubiquitous. At any rate, that's not very Catholic. ^_^

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2022

Daniel Peres said:
1) Luther and Calvin believed that baptism saved, not to mention that both believed in infant Baptism.

2) Lutherans and Calvinists have changed. I’ll give two examples. About two months ago I posted about a pamphlet of Luther where he taught that Christians must perform good works or they are not Christians. Lutherans responded to the post saying Martin Luther was wise but still too Catholic. What about Calvin and the Eucharist. Calvin believed the Eucharist was salvific. I’ve never heard a modern Calvinist say that the Eucharist is salvific.

Salvific?

He thought that Jesus' words at the Lord's Supper were more than figurative, but what do you mean by salvific?

eleos1954 · Dec 10, 2022

public hermit said:
Can you give some examples?

Here's a couple.

Catholicism and Protestantism have distinct views on the meaning and the authority of the Bible. Catholicism includes "church" tradition. Protestants are bible only. .... with catholicism the authority is the Catholic Church (ultimately the pope)... and considered "infallible".

Catholicism embraces works based salvation. Protestantism embraces salvation by faith.

The bible was not available to the general public for a very long time .... so therefore it's not surprising that "baggage" from the Roman Catholic Church carried over from it .... and to certain degrees ... still is being carried over.

More light is revealed through the study of His Word and it is an individual responsibility for each of us to do so.

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Here's a couple.

Catholicism and Protestantism have distinct views on the meaning and the authority of the Bible. Catholicism includes "church" tradition. Protestants are bible only. .... with catholicism the authority is the Catholic Church (ultimately the pope)... and considered "infallible".

Catholicism embraces works based salvation. Protestantism embraces salvation by faith.

The bible was not available to the general public for a very long time .... so therefore it's not surprising that "baggage" from the Roman Catholic Church carried over from it .... and to certain degrees ... still is being carried over.

More light is revealed through the study of His Word and it is an individual responsibility for each of us to do so.

And how are these Protestants still being too Catholic?

eleos1954 · Dec 10, 2022

well let's look at a recent "bend" from protestant (not all of them) to catholic thinking.

Clare73 said:
And how are these Protestants still being too Catholic?

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION | EWTN

https://vaticanfiles.org/en/tag/joint-declaration-on-justification/

The Catholic point is further reinforced through the claim that Catholics hold that the grace of Jesus Christ is “imparted” in baptism (No. 30). According to this view, grace is not received by faith alone, but is granted by God through the Church that administers it in baptism. This statement cannot be reconciled with the view according to which salvation is by grace alone apart from works, even sacramental ones. So for all the good intentions expressed and the admirable effort in dialogue, the result is below expectations and beyond an obedient adherence to the biblical Word of God. In contemporary Roman Catholicism we see a total consistency with respect to the traditional doctrine, that is, that justification occurs at baptism by a sacramental act.

(through the Catholic Church) justification occurs at baptism by a sacramental act.

No .... we are justified through the blood of Christ ... not by a sacramental act (religious ceremony) of the Catholic Church

Romans 5:9

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him

and Jesus did this one time for all time .... it's a done deal (Christ crucified) .... not through a continuous "sacramental act") of the Catholic Church through baptism.

Authority? Christ alone or the Catholic Church?

Catholics do not change their doctrine .... ever .... but "protestants" (some) do.

Christ Alone! Amen.

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2022

eleos1954 said:
well let's look at a recent "bend" from protestant (not all of them) to catholic thinking.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION | EWTN

https://vaticanfiles.org/en/tag/joint-declaration-on-justification/

(through the Catholic Church) justification occurs at baptism by a sacramental act.

No .... we are justified through the blood of Christ ... not by a sacramental act (religious ceremony) of the Catholic Church

Romans 5:9

9Therefore, since we have now been justified by His blood, how much more shall we be saved from wrath through Him

and Jesus did this one time for all time .... it's a done deal (Christ crucified) .... not through a continuous "sacramental act") of the Catholic Church through baptism.

Authority? Christ alone or the Catholic Church?

Catholics do not change their doctrine .... ever .... but "protestants" (some) do.

Christ Alone! Amen.

Okay. . .so who is in this joint declaration?

eleos1954 · Dec 10, 2022

Clare73 said:
Okay. . .so who is in this joint declaration?

Lutheran World Federation and World Methodist Council, is my understanding

Clare73 · Dec 10, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Lutheran World Federation and World Methodist Council, is my understanding

Yep, those Protestants have yielded if they agree with what you've presented.

Erose · Dec 10, 2022

eleos1954 said:
Here's a couple.

I’m sorry I had to respond to this because there is so much wrong with the post.

eleos1954 said:
Catholicism and Protestantism have distinct views on the meaning and the authority of the Bible. Catholicism includes "church" tradition. Protestants are bible only. .... with catholicism the authority is the Catholic Church (ultimately the pope)... and considered "infallible".

Actually we believe that Jesus is our authority, and He guides us through a) the Deposit of Faith, which includes Sacred Scripture, and b) His holy Church which safeguards the Deposit of Faith; and guides her flock through her bishops.

By the way every single Protestant denomination has its own sacred tradition, which it uses to understand Scripture. I get it that most Protestants don’t want to hear this and don’t want to accept this fact; but it is just a fact.

eleos1954 said:
Catholicism embraces works based salvation. Protestantism embraces salvation by faith.

Actually it would be closer saying that Catholicism embraces salvation by faith, hope and charity. The Catholic Church has always taught and will always teach that no one on their own can work themselves into heaven. That is Pelagianism and has been condemned as a heresy by the Church a very long time ago.

eleos1954 said:
The bible was not available to the general public for a very long time .... so therefore it's not surprising that "baggage" from the Roman Catholic Church carried over from it .... and to certain degrees ... still is being carried over.

This is not true either. Is it true that most Christians up until relatively recently didn’t have a personal Bible that we all are privileged to have an opportunity to own today? Yes. But it was because of primarily two things: 1) Bibles were extremely expensive in the modern sense because up until the printing press all of them where hand copied. Just for this case they were very valuable. 2) There wasn’t that many people until relatively recently that was able to read. Even though nuns and monks ran elementary schools to teach children how to read and write. There was not that many parents that were able or willing to take advantage of this fact, because of the need of the children to help their parents to eke out a living.

But anyone who was able and willing to read Scripture, they could do one of two things. Go to a local parish and read one of the Bible’s there; and if they wanted their own Scriptures to read at home all they had to do is make their own copies it was as simple as that.

eleos1954 said:
More light is revealed through the study of His Word and it is an individual responsibility for each of us to do so.

On this we can agree.

Maybe Protestants are still too Catholic

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