Are images of Jesus allowed?

Benam

Active Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2017
131
300
BC
✟680,235.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Just curious... for those who believe an image of Jesus (God) is a sin... I assume this applies to such things as children's illustrated bibles? How about a movie like The Passion of the Christ? Or a show like Chosen? Or even a church nativity play?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fervent
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,892
Pacific Northwest
✟732,319.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
All of the above tells you that it is a sin to make an image of God. That's the point.

You can read the reasons here. 5 Reasons not to Use Images of Jesus - Reformed Arsenal

You haven't given a biblical or theologically sound reason. You've pointed to two other religions, and a theological tradition which I don't agree with.

And if we are going to be sending links to articles that simply express the views of our respective theological traditions, here's an article by Pastor Jordan Cooper (Lutheran), on why Lutherans have images:


If what a Lutheran pastor has to say on the subject doesn't matter to you because you aren't Lutheran; then you can imagine then that I really don't care what the Reformed tradition has to say on the matter. And I don't care that members of another religion don't have images of Jesus. You may as well point out that Buddhists don't have icons of Jesus either--it's not relevant to the question of Christians and images of Jesus.

You're giving me your opinion, and then saying it's sinful because that's how you feel. Well, that doesn't mean much to me either. You are free, based on your feelings, to not have images. But you are not free to tell me and other Christians that we can't or that we shouldn't because it is sinful--because it isn't sinful, there is no violation against God's commandment. You simply dislike it, and you can't even provide a solid biblical or theological defense of your position.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Emun

Active Member
Aug 31, 2022
234
86
BW
✟23,341.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Just curious... for those who believe an image of Jesus (God) is a sin... I assume this applies to such things as children's illustrated bibles?
Any kind of image with a face that is supposed to represent God is a sin.
How about a movie like The Passion of the Christ? Or a show like Chosen? Or even a church nativity play?
This is also wrong. A person acting God in a movie is impudent. But that is the case only in Western culture. Jews and Muslims would not even think of such a blasphemous idea.
 
Upvote 0

Emun

Active Member
Aug 31, 2022
234
86
BW
✟23,341.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
You haven't given a biblical or theologically sound reason. You've pointed to two other religions, and a theological tradition which I don't agree with.

And if we are going to be sending links to articles that simply express the views of our respective theological traditions, here's an article by Pastor Jordan Cooper (Lutheran), on why Lutherans have images:


If what a Lutheran pastor has to say on the subject doesn't matter to you because you aren't Lutheran; then you can imagine then that I really don't care what the Reformed tradition has to say on the matter. And I don't care that members of another religion don't have images of Jesus. You may as well point out that Buddhists don't have icons of Jesus either--it's not relevant to the question of Christians and images of Jesus.

You're giving me your opinion, and then saying it's sinful because that's how you feel. Well, that doesn't mean much to me either. You are free, based on your feelings, to not have images. But you are not free to tell me and other Christians that we can't or that we shouldn't because it is sinful--because it isn't sinful, there is no violation against God's commandment. You simply dislike it, and you can't even provide a solid biblical or theological defense of your position.

-CryptoLutheran
What are you asking me to do, copy and paste the content here? The link I posted gives the reasons you are asking for.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,892
Pacific Northwest
✟732,319.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
What are you asking me to do, copy and paste the content here? The link I posted gives the reasons you are asking for.

And the link I posted gives you reasons why it's okay.

The link you posted only provides us with more opinion and feeling.

Let's examine the five reasons given in your link:

"The Image is a Cheap Substitute"

The rationale here is that somehow by having an image of Christ we are substituting the future beatific vision of Christ with a cheap immitation. Of course, this just isn't true. The purpose of images of Christ aren't to "propel us forward" and drag Christ from the future; but to be reminded of the promises of God which are ours in Him. We are reminded and the emphasis is on the Christ who came and lived and loved and suffered and died and rose again; the Christ who--yes--is seated at the right hand of the Father and who will come again one day in glory to judge the living and the dead.

Nobody thinks that an image of Jesus is what Jesus "actually looks like", or that it is a substitute of any kind for the future beatific vision when we behold our Redeemer on the Last Day. This charge, therefore, falls flat.

"The Image is a False One"

This argument is based entirely on "we don't know what Jesus physically looks like". Which is irrelevant. The point of images of Christ are not to be photographic representations of Him, they as already noted in the above, are symbols and reminders of the Incarnation: God made man. Which leads us to the third false charge,

"The Image Leads to Christological Error"

The false charge now is one of Nestorianism; of course not only is this not the case; but as already noted in both of my responses to the first two charges, it is actually quite the opposite. Nestorianism is emphatically denied, because images of Jesus boldly preach the Hypostatic Union: God-become-man. That the Word Himself became flesh. If the depiction of Jesus in human form is sufficient for the charge of Nestorianism, then the Incarnation itself is made suspect. Then seeing Jesus in the flesh, when He walked the earth, as the Apostles did, was Nestorian. Therefore, quite to the contrary, images of Christ are Christologically orthodox; rejecting the double errors of Nestorianism and Eutychianism and proclaiming the Hypostatic Union, proclaiming the Logos Ensarkos.

"Images Incline Us to Worship Using Images"

The argument then proceeds to speak of things such as having an image of a movie flash before our eyes, and that having such mental pictures are bad. I'd say that here one is going to be spending their time worrying over frivolous things rather than worshiping God, and that worry over such things is a far worse distraction than the images ever could be. As for the charge of "worship using images", well I suppose guilty as charged. Frequently when at church during prayer, during hymns, and especially during the Gospel Reading I look to the cross at the front of the sanctuary, and my attention is brought continually to Jesus who gave Himself for me on the cross.

So that we might be guilty if we think of our Lord, and think of His works, and think of His gifts, His word, His promises when we worship? Well happy guilt have we to be surrounded by the grace, love, and comfort of our God who richly blesses us with every mercy and draws us always to the cross in which we abide in Christ, and hope only in Christ, for He is our salvation, our righteousness, and our sanctification. So glory be to God.

"Images Undermine the Sufficiency of Scripture"

Ah, the argument against the visible. As though God doesn't speak to us through visible and tangible things. As though God has not connected His word with visible, external, tangible water and called it Holy Baptism; or that God has not connected His word with visible, external, tangible bread and wine and called it the Holy Supper. Not only does the visible not undermine Holy Scripture, it amplifies it; for God's word is given clearly through visible, physical, tangible things: Means of Grace are in Word and Sacrament. For in our baptism God declares and speaks His word; in the Supper God declares and speaks His word. Just as much as He speaks and proclaims His word through preaching. Images of Christ do not undermine these, but amplifies and boldly announces them. The word is preached, and that same word can be seen preached in images, that same word can be seen preached in the Sacraments. So, we find again, yet another false charge.

In conclusion: Four of the five charges are false, and one is presented as though it should be a problem when it is not. As such I feel quite confident and comfortable reaffirming what I have already said throughout this thread.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Strong in Him

Great is thy faithfulness
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2005
27,918
7,998
NW England
✟1,053,556.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Unless he has appeared in a vision...
Even if he did, he is now ascended and glorified; not necessarily as he was on earth.
A person may not be able to draw a vision accurately - it's not like sitting for a portrait.
 
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,565
13,724
✟429,913.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
A few points for the thread to consider, if you don't mind:

1- Much has been made of the reactions and/or religious prohibitions of the Muslims (and to a lesser extent, the Jews) regarding the use of images in religious worship. @ViaCrucis has ably covered why those don't matter, but I would like to draw everyone's attention to the fact that, while the Muslims were somehow able to throw doubt or confusion upon the Chalcedonian churches such that in the 8th century they had to have a whole council to resolve spasms of iconoclasm that had occurred in their communion, in my own Oriental Orthodox communion, we by and large faced Muslim occupation very early on in our homelands just as the Chalcedonians had (e.g., in Egypt by the 640s), yet we never had any major problems with iconoclasm. I say this not to brag or whatever, but to point out that if Islamic prohibitions really mattered to Christians, you'd think we would've all taken them on board, yet the Oriental Orthodox are living proof that not only do they not matter, they have never mattered. Islam affected us in different ways than that (e.g., the Caliph at one point ordered that anyone caught speaking Coptic would have their tongues cut out), yet our production and use of icons has been largely unaffected throughout the centuries.

2- On a theological level, to deny proper veneration to the holy icons is something of a weakening (and here I'm purposely using a softer word than I realistically could be using) of the theology of the incarnation itself. Someone in this thread on the side of the iconoclasts made a point by saying "if Jesus is God...", and I would reply to that by saying that if Jesus is truly incarnate as a man, then He has a body and a face and all of this just like the rest of us. Remember that He is like us in all things except sin (Hebrews 4). So if we say "Well we cannot depict him because He is also God", does that mean that therefore we are to endorse a kind of neo-Eutychianism, whereby the divinity somehow subsumes or dilutes the humanity? Such a position is entirely heretical and untenable, as the fathers and histories of every Church (i.e., those of both non-Chalcedonians like me, and Chalcedonians like everyone else in this thread) testify. He is 100% Divine and 100% Man, and this does not change because someone creates an icon of Him anymore than the Theotokos or St. Mark or any other saint ceases to be a human person or is somehow magically transformed into a God(dess) for the same reason. (Which is to say, not at all.)

3- It may interest some of you to know, regardless of which 'side' you are on in this discussion, that the very first conversion of any kingdom to Christianity -- namely, that of Osroene under King Abgar V, which occurred during the time of Christ's own earthly ministry -- occurred due to the intervention of a holy icon. This event has been depicted not only in icons, but also in books, and even on currency:

Abgarwithimageofedessa10thcentury.jpg


Icon of King Abgar receiving the holy image of Christ, 10th century (Monastery of St. Cathrine on the Sinai Peninsula, Egypt)

addaibook.jpg

The Teaching of Addai book by Mikael Oez (Modern Neo-Aramaic Press, 2019)

640px-100,000_Armenian_dram_-_2009_(reverse).jpg

Reverse side of Armenian 100,000 Dram note (2009 ed.), depicting King Abgar receiving the image of Christ from St. Thaddeus

If those of you whose forms of Christianity came into being only in the last five centuries of so want to think that you have a better handle on how to practice Christianity than the Greeks, Armenians, and Syriacs, that's your right. If you expect your latter-day opinions to be given more weight than the established practices and theologies of these -- not really arguably the earliest Christian people there are (the Greeks being those whose language in which the NT is written; the Armenians being the first modern country to adopt Christianity as an official religion; and the Syriacs being those who have preserved the only living variants of the language of Christ, as they share in that same ethnolinguistic heritage of the Jews of Christ's time, and hence also the very first Christians) -- that is very unrealistic, very misguided, and anyway will not be occurring.

Put simply, images of Christ are not only allowed, but encouraged as an explicit affirmation that He came and dwelt among us, with everything that follows from that (e.g., the sanctification of people and places).
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
You see it often and regularly. Christians who either have an image of Jesus hanging on their wall at home or have a picture of Jesus as their profile picture on social media. There are also Christians who bow down before an image of Jesus (or Mary).

My question is: Is that reprehensible to make an image of God?

Paul said in Acts 17:29: "Because we are descended from God, it is absurd to think that we can represent God in statues made of gold, silver or hewn stones. These are, after all, only creations of our art and our imaginations."

Isn't that a clear statement?

My other question is: Why do people always tend to make an image of God? We see this already in the early times of mankind and until today it is still common. How do you explain this phenomenon?
Actually, no, that isn't a clear statement: no statement is clear when it is taken out of context. Paul was speaking at that point to a group who had endeavored not just to have idols of their gods, they had actively sought through the world to make sure there weren't any gods they were overlooking (and as "insurance" they'd made an altar to "Unknown god", just in case). This statement is in Paul's introduction where he is setting up both a contrast with the truth and a commonality where they'd gotten a little bit correct (despite themselves). Indirectly he's echoing a common chastisement of Athenian philosophers, that while they made sure they weren't missing any gods they did nothing to indicate they actually honored any of them. So sure, if you're a philosopher-type who keeps idols around and tries to include every possible deity yet you don't truly take any of them seriously, Paul's statement is clear.

This is really just a re-shuffling of the old concern about the prohibition against images from the Old Testament, and the answer can be sought there:

When God gave instructions to Moses for building the Tabernacle, He included images. When Solomon actually built a Temple for God, he included the same images the Tabernacle had had plus included a bunch more for which no instructions had been given.
God blessed and set His presence on both the Tabernacle and the Temple.

Thus the apparent restriction against images is no such thing, since God both commanded some images to be made for His House and approved of others He had not commanded.

So if you're one of God's people and seeking to worship Him, then there is a place for images.

- = -

Secondly, the Incarnation changed things: God made an Image for Himself and indeed became that Image! God made Himself visible. God took on matter, all the elements that make up human beings. He walked this world and was seen and heard and touched and smelled, and He shed skin cells and sweat and saliva and hair and more, so that by now there is no place on Earth's surface where there are no atoms that at one time belonged to the body of the Incarnate Word.

But back to the Image: that Jesus, God the Son from all eternity, took on material form, took on our form, tells us that He wants us to worship with our eyes. And there we have the key to the question about images: if images of Jesus remind us that He is one of us, then they are aids to worship. Worship, especially since every part of the Earth now bears atoms that were part of God's body, isn't just a mental exercise, it's one of seeing and smelling and hearing and touching.

Why have humans tended so strongly to making images to represent God? I would venture that we know deep down that God wants us to see Him and know Him and so we instinctively try to capture Him in a portrayal that is supposed to bring us closer to Him. The error is that He has already provided the Image we need! And the answer is to worship with all our senses. And since we are to proclaim His message, and are ourselves always in need of receiving it, then we do well to proclaim it not just with letters on a page but with images that also point to Him.
- = -

With regard to Christians using portrayals of Jesus for online avatars, I think it's pretty arrogant or a least astoundingly daring, because that choice brings with it the responsibility to be like Him in every single last way.
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
I don't claim that either. It is specifically about God/Jesus. I think it is wrong to make an image of God.
But He went first: He gave us an Image of Himself. The little images we make point us to the real Image, and indeed express our longing for Him.
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
@Brother-Mike

John Calvin agrees with me, for he says:

Behold, they paint and portray Jesus Christ, who (as we know) is not only man, but also God manifested in the flesh: and what a representation is that? He is God’s eternal Son in whom dwells the fullness of the God head, yea even substantially. Seeing it is said, substantially, should we have portraitures and images whereby only the flesh may be represented? Is it not a wiping away of that which is chiefest in our Lord Jesus Christ, that is to wit, of his divine Majesty? Yes: and therefore whensoever a Crucifix stands mopping & mowing in the Church, it is all one as if the Devil had defaced the son of God. (Sermon of 23 May, 1555).
Calvin in this would be called out by the church Fathers for encouraging Docetism by deliberately obscuring the human nature and thus making a Jesus who is no Savior.
It's easy to think about Jesus being God. It's another thing entirely to remember that this MAN is God! Images of Jesus in the flesh proclaim to us that God is one of us, that it is no disembodied entity sitting at the right hand of God but our very own human flesh.

As for crucifixes, I call Calvin a fool. Consider, if your best friend was in the world championship game and it came down to the final seconds with no score, when suddenly, after having been smashed to the ground, your best friend steps clear of all his opponents and by himself makes the winning score.
What will you want a picture of, to remind yourself of your friend's victory: the empty playing field and goal markers, or your friend making that score?

The crucifix is a declaration of the Gospel. It says to us that our Friend scored the winning goal by showing us again the moment of victory. It reminds us of what Paul said, that he preached Jesus crucified, and of what Jesus Himself said from that Cross: τετέλεσται, "teTELess-tie", It is [now and forevermore, totally and completely] finished!" It reminds us of the stark reality that God's Blood flowed from pierced human flesh and that God's body was broken -- for us.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Brother-Mike
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
In Reformed thought, it is considered idolatry, because it breeches the second commandment which forbids the making and usage of any depiction of God. If Jesus is God, then Jesus would follow under this commandment.
The fact that God ordered Moses to put images in the Tabernacle, and that God blessed the Temple after Solomon had put in even more images all on his own, tells us that it isn't a commandment, it's a commentary on the First.
There's an argument from the ancient church I'm not certain I'm impressed with, but I'll put it forth here: as God made an Image of Himself, we in turn copy Him b making images of the True Image. Another is that by having images of the Image, we can look on them while the true Image is for the moment gone from us,
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
I suggest you and all others to read this article: 5 Reasons not to Use Images of Jesus - Reformed Arsenal
Not at all impressed with the one about Christological error because it overlooks the fact that God made an Image of Himself that looked like it was just a man.
Nor with the idea that it inclines us to worship using images: we do that anyway because we are creatures with eyes; the only way to avoid the urge to have mental images in worship is to blind us all. Besides that, having no exterior images just means that we invent our own ideas of who Jesus is and end up worshipping our private Jesus. Having an image of Him at the very least reminds us that whatever we think up in our own minds we have not comprehended Him.
As for the final one it misunderstands the concept of "word" in scripture by reducing it to printed letters. God's dealings with the prophets demonstrate that the word can be visual apart from written words.
But the whole set ignores the fact that God blessed a Temple filled with images with His Own Presence. That is a far stronger aargument than the musings of a man who never escaped the legal thinking he had been educated in.
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
True, but did they make images of him and put those images up at home or in the churches? No, certainly not.

Besides, this example is weak. The Jesus they saw was the real Jesus. The "Jesus" that is seen in the images today is not the real Jesus. It is a false representation of him. Every image of Jesus today is false.

I am not talking about a serpent or any other creature, I am talking about God. You can make images of animals, angels and other creatures, that is of course allowed in the Bible as long as you don't worship them. But a picture of God that doesn't even really represent God is a sin.
If that is true, then we should never, ever think about God, because whatever mental image we have of Him "doesn't even really represent God".
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
Iconography is the Scripture in pictures. Just as I reverence the cross, or the book containing the Gospels, I can also reverence Christ, Mary, the saints and various events of the their lives. At a deeper level, the rejection of icons also indicates the rejection of matter being honored because Christ Himself became matter for our sake. Furthermore, this can be taken that Christ did not become truly human and thus heresy.

St. John of Damascus wrote in the Defense of Images, circa 730: Internet History Sourcebooks Project

Of old, God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted. Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh, and conversing with men, I make an image of the God whom I see. I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul.

I honour all matter besides, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, me. Was not the with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to thrice happy and thrice blessed wood of the Cross matter? Was not the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Sepulchre, the source of our resurrection: was it not matter? Is not the most holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the blessed table matter which gives us the Bread of Life' Are not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either do away with the veneration and worship due to all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the worship of images, honouring God and His friends, and following in this the grace of the Holv Spirit.
I recall being pointed to this concerning the matter of mentally-challenged folks who couldn't follow a sermon or even scripture verses. I was told to watch them in church, and it didn't take long to recognize that though they were terrible with verbal learning they understood the Gospel from the stained glass windows and the wall carvings.
They could do some theology with those images, too: ponder for a moment the traditional drawing of Jesus as the Good Shepherd, holding a lamb, but now put that Jesus on the Cross -- still holding the lamb.

BTW I love the point about honoring matter: given how long Jesus lived and the ways in which the human body sheds bits of itself constantly, it was true centuries again that every place on the Earth's surface is replete with atoms that came from the body of the Incarnate Word! Every one of us has iron atoms in our blood that were once part of His blood!
God has embraced matter, not just in metaphor or spiritually, He has embraced it with His Own Body that shed bits of itself that now cover the world.
 
Upvote 0

Jonaitis

Soli Deo Gloria
Jan 4, 2019
5,225
4,212
Wyoming
✟123,651.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
The fact that God ordered Moses to put images in the Tabernacle, and that God blessed the Temple after Solomon had put in even more images all on his own, tells us that it isn't a commandment, it's a commentary on the First.
There's an argument from the ancient church I'm not certain I'm impressed with, but I'll put it forth here: as God made an Image of Himself, we in turn copy Him b making images of the True Image. Another is that by having images of the Image, we can look on them while the true Image is for the moment gone from us,
I don't think that applies, though. Moses was never commanded to make images of God in the Tabernacle, nor in Solomon's Temple. There may have been images, which the commandment was not prohibiting, but there were no images depicting the living God. Matter of fact, not even the mercy seat had a figure sitting between the two cherubim, although, that would have been pointless since no one could look at it. And, think about that: an object (ark of the covenant) that represented God's covenantal presence was condemnable to gaze upon, and thus this speaks volumes of the kind of disgust God has for images carved by man to depict Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pioneer3mm
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

zoidar

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️
Site Supporter
Sep 18, 2010
7,222
2,617
✟886,360.00
Country
Sweden
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
With regard to Christians using portrayals of Jesus for online avatars, I think it's pretty arrogant or a least astoundingly daring, because that choice brings with it the responsibility to be like Him in every single last way.
I can't say my avatar of Jesus makes me responsible to be like him, why would that be? I guess I have it to inspire others to know Jesus and out of love for him.
 
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single
Paul also said that our Lord Jesus is "the visible image of the invisible God". The question of images became a huge issue around the 8th century AD. Muslim armies had, in the 7th century, conquered the Persian Empire and had conquered the Levant, Egypt, and spread throughout North Africa. The Eastern Roman Empire (aka the Byzantine Empire) had lost a lot of land to the Muslims. It came as a shock to the Christians living there, as for centuries the Roman Empire (East and West) had been predominately Christian. Also, at the time, many Christians were unsure of what to make of Islam, it wasn't viewed so much as a completely different religion at the time, but was seen as a heretical sect. Whereas in the West, after the fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Germanic "barbarians", those same "barbarians" converted to Christianity.

So some in the Eastern Church wondered why, it seemed, God had "sided" with the Muslims against Christians (a very earthly and wrong way of looking at things, obviously, thinking that God is on the side of the victors in a conflict). And so some, such as Emperor Leo III of the Byzantine Empire saw that the big difference (from his perspective) was that Muslims forbade all images, while Christians had images. Leo concluded that perhaps God was punishing them for having images, and so began a campaign of Iconoclasm (literally "image-breaking"), banning images in churches.

Theologians and clergy were appalled by what Leo was doing, because for them this wasn't merely an act of the State against the Church (which it was), nor was it merely an absence of having images; rather they saw it for what it was: An attack on the fundamental and essential doctrines of the Christian faith.

The problem with Iconoclasm was that the core doctrine of our Christian faith is the believe that God became man. The invisible God, the Eternal Logos, God the Son Himself, became human. Assumed our humanity. Jesus is both God and human, without separation. Thus the theologians of the time saw this as an assault against the very doctrine of the Incarnation, it was an attack against Jesus Himself and everything we believe about Jesus as Christians.

Eventually this resulted in the convening of a Church-wide council, only the seventh to ever happen in the history of Christianity. And the subject of this council was the matter of Iconoclasm and the need to defend the Faith.

The Council gathered at Nicea, even as the very first Church-wide council had met at Nicea centuries earlier in order to defend the full and complete Deity of Christ against the Arians.

The Council thus, after much meeting and examining the Scriptures and taking all that had come before into account, ruled this way: Images of Christ are not in violation against the making of graven images for the injunction against the making of graven images is because God is invisible. And thus, images of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit were to be rejected, for God cannot be depicted; images of the Incarnate Son were absolutely valid. For God has taken upon Himself visible human flesh, and to depict that visible flesh does not wrongly depict God, just the opposite, it rightly reminds us of the Incarnation. So images of Christ should not only not be rejected, they should be celebrated: God became man, this is our faith, all praise and glory to God. In the same way, images of creatures should not be prohibited, so there should be no prohibition against images of the saints, for such images act to serve as reminders of God's saving work and grace throughout history. That the lives and memories of the saints can be to our benefit, even as we read in Hebrews that we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses--the saints surround us and cheer us on as we run the race of faith here in the world.

So rules were put forward that governed what images meant and what their purpose was, it also ruled that there were lawful and unlawful images. As noted, it is unlawful to depict God the Father or the Holy Spirit, for God in His Essence is not to be depicted for it cannot be. Which is why only images of Christ were considered lawful.

So, no, images of Christ do not violate the commandment against graven images and idols; and it does not go against what Paul said there in the Acts. We do not have images of the Invisible and Divine Essence which cannot be depicted, we have images of Christ, the visible Icon of the invisible God. For these images are not the object of our worship, but are fingers which point to the object of our worship: Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hence Christians have always had and used images. We can see this going back and looking to ancient times, such as the ancient catacombs. It is only with the rise of Iconoclasm many centuries later that the presence of images became a matter of debate--and the reasons behind that debate had nothing to do with theology and Scripture, but because an emperor wanted to impose his will on the Church because he wrongly believed that God favors whoever wins in war. It's no different than had Leo tried to replace the Bible with the Qur'an in the churches.

We don't see Iconoclasm again until modern times. Some radical Protestants (and when I say radical, I really mean radical, the sorts who also burned and looted churches and monasteries, who assaulted priests and monks, and who engaged in widespread unmitigated violence) resurrected Iconoclasm. Martin Luther and other leading members of the Reformation condemned these radicals. Iconoclasm, again, shows up now and then among some Protestant groups today. But it is a theologically anemic doctrine, it is a false piety.

That is not to say that anyone HAS to have images. But to condemn images is problematic in Christianity, because the very heart and core of the Christian faith is that the Invisible has become Visible in Christ. God's grace and power is not "invisible" but visibly manifest. God works through the visible and external means of Word and Sacrament to give us faith. The Scriptures are visible, external, we read them as ink on a page, we hear them as words spoken as audible voice. It is with physical and visible water that we received our baptism in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. We receive visible, physical, tangible bread and wine in the Lord's Supper. Iconoclasm fundamentally denies the visible and external works and word of God--and that is spiritually dangerous. It leads us away from trusting in the Gospel, trusting in Christ, trusting in the word of God and toward trusting other things. When all the while Christ is right here in our midst, in His word, in His Sacraments, in the love and fellowship of His Church coming together in His name.

And an image of Christ reinforces this: Christ really is here with us. The Crucified and Risen Lord, He who is seated at the right hand of the Father is He who said, "I am with you always, even until the end of the age" as He is here, in Word and Sacrament. The visible and the invisible meet and come together, the infinite and the finite are together; God is here with us. And reminding ourselves of this, taking every opportunity to find ways to be reminded that God is with us is important. That we are reminded over and over again of His promises.

-CryptoLutheran
One point about images of the Spirit and the Father: the Spirit can be depicted as a dove since that was the guise told/shown us at the time of John the Baptist. Additionally, the Father and the Spirit can both be depicted on icons not showing but rather suggesting the Trinity, though not directly but indirectly as with icons of Abraham's encounter with "three men" at Mamre; in practice this is limited to just a very, very few icons. An OCA priest I knew who had studied icons extensively pointed out that one way to tell if an icon is suggesting the Trinity is if the faces are identical: since Jesus is the only material/visible image of the Godhead, His is the only face we can paint to indicate God. He also said that the positions of the figures suggesting the Trinity are supposed to indicate either a circle or a triangle or both.
 
Upvote 0

PsaltiChrysostom

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2018
1,047
1,003
Virginia
✟70,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
One point about images of the Spirit and the Father: the Spirit can be depicted as a dove since that was the guise told/shown us at the time of John the Baptist. Additionally, the Father and the Spirit can both be depicted on icons not showing but rather suggesting the Trinity, though not directly but indirectly as with icons of Abraham's encounter with "three men" at Mamre; in practice this is limited to just a very, very few icons. An OCA priest I knew who had studied icons extensively pointed out that one way to tell if an icon is suggesting the Trinity is if the faces are identical: since Jesus is the only material/visible image of the Godhead, His is the only face we can paint to indicate God. He also said that the positions of the figures suggesting the Trinity are supposed to indicate either a circle or a triangle or both.
Rublev's Trinity
1670027149064.png
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Roymond
Upvote 0

Roymond

Active Member
Feb 1, 2022
332
121
68
Oregon
✟7,226.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Single

If I look at that with my eyes crossed there's definitely a circle defined by the bodies. I also see a cup framed by the two outside figures that becomes almost three-dimensional when viewed the same way. The oak in the background suggests that this is the encounter at Mamre; the wings (which I almost missed) do as well since the "three men" who visited Abraham at Mamre have traditionally been understood to have been angels.. The faces seem identical (I'd want a much larger image to be certain, but I'd bet that they are), which makes this a suggestion of the Trinity. The center figure would be Christ since he is inside the framed cup. I'm guessing the figure on the right would then suggest the Holy Spirit, since blue and green indicate life and He is the Lord and Giver of life. That would leave the figure on the left as the suggestion of the Father (though there must be something else I'm missing that tells this is the Father). I can't tell what's in the cup on the table, so no guess at any meaning.

The item in the right background looks to me like a tsunami wave; I suppose it must be a mountain?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,462
26,892
Pacific Northwest
✟732,319.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
One point about images of the Spirit and the Father: the Spirit can be depicted as a dove since that was the guise told/shown us at the time of John the Baptist. Additionally, the Father and the Spirit can both be depicted on icons not showing but rather suggesting the Trinity, though not directly but indirectly as with icons of Abraham's encounter with "three men" at Mamre; in practice this is limited to just a very, very few icons. An OCA priest I knew who had studied icons extensively pointed out that one way to tell if an icon is suggesting the Trinity is if the faces are identical: since Jesus is the only material/visible image of the Godhead, His is the only face we can paint to indicate God. He also said that the positions of the figures suggesting the Trinity are supposed to indicate either a circle or a triangle or both.

That has been my understanding as well. Biblically, and just good theology in general is clear that the Father wills that He be known through His Son. "No one can come to the Father except through Me" means just that, the only way we can encounter God the Father is through Jesus. "No one has ever seen God at any time, but the only-begotten who is in the bosom of the Father has made Him known". Time and again Scripture says this, and all good theology confesses it. Which is why many theologians through the ages have emphasized that encounters with God in the Old Testament are always encounters with the pre-incarnate Logos. St. Paul says as much when he speaks of Christ with Israel in the wilderness.

In this way, then, the Father is never absent from icons of Christ, because He is always there, we "see" Him in the face of Christ His Son. Because that's good theology: We come to the Father through Jesus, we know the Father through Jesus, we behold the Person of the Father through the Person of His Son, who has become flesh.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Like
Reactions: Roymond
Upvote 0