Prior to Christianity, were all followers of Pagan religions completely severed from God?

Jipsah said:

Some Christans also believe in something they call "Investigative Judgement"

Click to expand...

True - they get that from Daniel 7: where the idea of judgment based on books of record is called by the shorter term "investigative judgment"

“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.

21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive compensation for his deeds done through the body, in accordance with what he has done, whether good or bad.

Jipsah said:

which appears nowhere in Scripture.

Click to expand...

As to whether Dan 7 and 2 Cor 5:10 are in the Bible or not - I guess there is a difference of opinion.

Jipsah said:

Neither of these things has any actual relevence to the discussion at hand,

Click to expand...

Well I do agree that your topic at first glance does not fit - but as for what others themselves call "communion with the dead" - we do see that in both Christian and non-Christian groups as per the title of this thread. So "that" does have relevance to the thread title.

And in the "big picture" the judgment of Dan 7 and Rom 2:13-16 also fits since the question in the OP is about the salvation state of those who had no access to the Bible at all.

details.

Landon Caeli said:

...And if we can't say something with scriptural or logical backup, then perhaps we never should.

Click to expand...

I myself think Patristic backup is sufficient, because to quote St. Hilary of Poitiers, scripture is in the interpretation, not the reading, and as St. Irenaeus of Lyons warned, Scripture can be twisted through misinterpretation, just like the tiles of a mosaic of a lion can be rearranged to form the shape of a dog, or some other animal. Also, since the liturgical traditions of the RCC, EO, OO, Assyrian, Lutheran, Anglican and other liturgical churches preserve interpretations of scripture, and more often than not agree with each other, they can be very useful, especially Roman, Anglican and Lutheran Mass Propers such as the Prefaces, Secret Prayers, Tracts or Alelluias, Sequences and Collects, and the hymns from Eastern Orthodox Matins, such as the Canon, Kontakion, and Troparion, Coptic Orthodox Psalmody and the Synaxarion lesson, and equivalents from the other rites (such as the Qanone and Husoyo prayers in the Syriac Orthodox, Syriac Catholic and Maronite Catholic liturgies).

Landon Caeli said:

The scriptures seem to suggest that good can indeed be done by Pagans. Because God still had a "wink" of influence upon the ignorant.

Click to expand...

Your dialogue with @Der Alte and other members has been very edifying.

hedrick said:

I'm not so sure that's what Matthew meant. Most commentators think the least of these my brethren actually refers to Christians. Brethren in Matthew always means Christians, and there are examples of "little ones" and similar language in early Christian writers referring to Christians.

If that's true, then people of "the nations" are judged based upon their treatment of Christians, which probably reflects their attitude towards Christianity.

I checked with Calvin, to make sure this isn't just a modern view. He also says that the episode involves one's help of Christians, though he doesn't have the same understanding of the meaning I do.

Click to expand...

Calvin is pretty modern from my perspective, but to me, anything newer than the year 1,000 is modern.

Landon Caeli said:

I'm curious how far separated the Pagans would have been from God. I can only imagine that as people created in his image, God would have had at least some influence in their lives. The reason I ask is because I get the impression that some Christians view all the Pagans as purely satanic, and completely removed from God's love. I'm not sure that's true.

Click to expand...

Ephesians 2:11-12 will have the answer you need about the state of all gentiles before Paul was saved.

Psalm 27 said:

Anyone is capable of receiving God's grace...The goodness of God leads us to repentance Romans 2:4b...aren't all Pagan before salvation?

Click to expand...

Post Exodus, prior to Paul being made the apostle to the gentiles, gentiles who wanted to be saved, needed to join the nation of Israel to be included in the covenant with God. (Genesis 12:3)

And any nation that refused to bless Israel, or made life difficult for her, will also be cursed by God (Numbers 24:9, Deuteronomy 23:3-4), for many generations.

In time past, we cannot approach God independently, without Israel.

Even Jesus followed that rule during his first coming. (Romans 15:8, Matthew 15:24)

The Roman Centurion blessed Abraham's seed, by building Israel a synagogue. (Luke 7:4-5). That was why Jesus automatically agreed to meet with him and to grant him that miracle.

The Canaanite woman blessed Abraham's seed, Israel, by acknowledging her submission to Israel, that she was indeed a gentile puppy who have the right to be blessed from the bread crumbs falling from the children of Israel's table (Mark 7:28-29)

But praise the Lord now that we don't need to bless the nation of Israel, in order to be saved or blessed (Romans 11:11). That is good news for us.

ChetSinger said:

I've been intrigued by the throne judgment at the end of Matthew 25. Jesus says that before him will be gathered "all the nations". To his immediate audience that would've meant the Gentile world, the "unchosen" of mankind.

They're judged by their works, not by faith. And those whose lives were marked by deeds of kindness receive eternal life. The rest don't.

As a result, I think that Jesus might grant eternal life to those who lived lives of kindness, even if they were never chosen by the Father.

Click to expand...

As a follow up to my above posts, once you understand them, you will be able to better understand the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25, which is talking about life during the Great Tribulation

During the Tribulation, which is the age to come, gentiles will once again be required to bless the nation of Israel in order to be saved.

The Antichrist will emerge to persecute the nation Israel during those 7 years.

Everyone in Israel will have to flee to the mountains and pray that this flight takes place neither in the sabbath nor the winter, as Jesus prophesied.

So if you are a gentile then, and still want to be considered saved at the end of the Tribulation, it takes more than just faith in Jesus alone.

Like what it popularly quoted from James, they need to have works together with that faith, which if you read that passage by Jesus in (Matthew 25:41-46), you are also required to feed and take care of the Jews, those who didn't manage to flee, who are being persecuted by the antichrist then.

At the end, Jesus on his throne will welcome you to his kingdom, because, as he said, if you did it for them, you are doing it for him.

It gels with what Numbers 24:9, Deuteronomy 23:3-4 are also saying.

You will be saved thru the nation Israel, just like how gentiles were in time past.

hedrick said:

I'm not so sure that's what Matthew meant. Most commentators think the least of these my brethren actually refers to Christians. Brethren in Matthew always means Christians, and there are examples of "little ones" and similar language in early Christian writers referring to Christians.

If that's true, then people of "the nations" are judged based upon their treatment of Christians, which probably reflects their attitude towards Christianity.

I checked with Calvin, to make sure this isn't just a modern view. He also says that the episode involves one's help of Christians, though he doesn't have the same understanding of the meaning I do.

Click to expand...

Jews call each other "brethren", so when Jesus mentioned that term there, he is talking about gentiles from all nations blessing and helping the Jews during the Tribulation.

Getting back to the OP, the Stoic philosopher Seneca was recognized as a righteous pagan. In the Divine Comedy, the first level of Inferno, aka Limbo, is populated by Seneca, Socrates, Plato and other righteous people who were born prior to Christ. Tertullian called him, "our Seneca". There was even a forgery of letters as though written by Paul and Seneca to each other.

My own opinion is that God is going to have mercy on those he wants to have mercy on. I would not be surprised to see Seneca, Lao Tzu, and other pagans in heaven who did not have an opportunity to know the Christian message.

Eftsoon said:

You do see Christological myths in indigenous cultures. Christ revealed Himself to them if only in glimpses. Missionaries frequently encounter this. Many of the peoples they encounter are able to intuitively grasp the concept of Christ because He maps directly onto their tradition.

Click to expand...

Based on sources like "The Mythology Book" by DK as well as "World Mythology for Beginners" by Zachary Hardy, there are many important themes common to mythic memories from cultures around the world.

Very common is the memory of acquiring knowledge (fire) and so incurring the Wrath of the Supernatural Realm. According to the Maya, the Divine Realm created humans from the ground, and there were several ages of humanity, each ending in a cataclysm like a Flood due to the displeasure of the Heavenly Realm. The Australian Aboriginal "Dreamtime" of creation before humanity echoes Eden and even before.

Many deep themes common to all.

Erik Nelson said:

Based on sources like "The Mythology Book" by DK as well as "World Mythology for Beginners" by Zachary Hardy, there are many important themes common to mythic memories from cultures around the world.

Very common is the memory of acquiring knowledge (fire) and so incurring the Wrath of the Supernatural Realm. According to the Maya, the Divine Realm created humans from the ground, and there were several ages of humanity, each ending in a cataclysm like a Flood due to the displeasure of the Heavenly Realm. The Australian Aboriginal "Dreamtime" of creation before humanity echoes Eden and even before.

Many deep themes common to all.

Click to expand...

I appreciate what you are saying here.

And to address the OP here's something that should be considered.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.