Why I believe in pre-trib rapture

Douggg said:

Ivan, the rapture could indeed take place before the 7 year 70th week begins.

John was caught up to heaven, Revelation 4:1-2. And then was shown what was in the sealed book, beginning with the rider on the white horse given a crown. given a crown representing him being crowned the King of Israel coming in his own name, to become the Antichrist - false messiah.

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The (un)sealed book is again seen in Revelation 10:11--Revelation 11:1... it's the little book in the angel's hand (which can't be the book of life that only the Lamb holds), Revelation 10:8.
I believe this angel is "the angel of His presence": the Risen Lord... for several reasons, including His description (Revelation 1:13-15) and His authority (Matthew 28:18) these 7 thunders are probably the 7 spirits in Revelation 1:4.

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations, and tongues and kings. Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod. And the angel stood, saying, (έγειραι) Rise, and (μέτρησον) measure the temple of God and the altar and them that worship therein.KJV
egeiro = to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death...:--awake, lift (up), raise (again, up), rear up, (a-)rise (again, up), stand, take up.

Zechariah 2:1-5 And I lifted up mine eyes and looked, and behold a man and in his hand a measuring line.[2] And I said to him, Whither goest thou? And he said to me, To (διαμετρήσαι) measure Jerusalem, to see what is the breadth of it and what is the length of it.[3] And behold, the angel that spoke with me stood by and another angel went forth to meet him,[4] and spoke to him saying, Run and speak to that young man saying, Jerusalem shall be fully inhabited by reason of the abundance of men and cattle in the midst of her.LXX

The gentile-gospel rapture means the wheat and the tares have been separated, right?
But Revelation 14:14-20 shows the two reapings.

The two witnesses will prophecy until the mid-point, and when they're taken up in clouds, their enemies from the remnant will see it happen... I believe these to be the 7000 killed in the earthquake... but the innocent remnant will fear God and give glory to Him at the same event.
It's interesting that the 7000 stood against Jezebel in the Old testament, but the 7000 probably are Jezebel in the New Testament. When they fall, Babylon falls... because Jezebel (within the church) is placed on a bed--this is the bed of adultery from the Old Testament--and her children (within the church) will be sent to the great tribulation to be "killed by Death", Death is the name of the rider on the pale horse, Revelation 6:8.
Fall doesn't mean down and out. Because Babylon becomes a cage for unclean birds, and the eagles are gathered where the dead body lays in Jerusalem... the 2 witnesses will not be allowed burial, so carion-birds are there. Fallen, is fallen = down and out.

And if Zechariah's horses-and-chariots/winds-of-heaven are another clue, then all four horses don't go to into all countries... Zechariah 6:1-8, in the Septuagint.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The Church, and only the Church of Jesus Christ. In Chapter 1 we are introduces to Lord Jesus who is walking around 7 golden lampstands which represents the 7 churches of chapter 2-3, 7 churches in Asia Minor which represent the whole church throughout the history up until Jesus takes His Church with Him.

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Spiritual Jew said:

Specifically seven first century churches in the ancient Roman province of Asia, but there are things that that the entire church can learn from as well.


Whoa there. This is quite a stretch and not something indicated in the text whatsoever. Your view is clearly not based on anything clearly said in the book.

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When did this happen? in the Asian province:

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

While I don't agree with the strictly linear approach that the OP seems to be presenting, I think it's pretty clear that Revelation 2:22 has yet to be fulfilled.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

These special messages were written to the specific churches in Asia, but the same strengths and weaknesses can be found in today’s Body of Christ (Today’s Church).

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The "body of christ" doctrine is Paul's gospel to the gentiles.

That doctrine doesn't exist in the gospel taught to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel in Galilee.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is given to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. It's these people who are in the tribulation and patience of the Kingdom with John. And the Song of Moses and the palms are also the marks of Jacob... because, as you've already said, this is the time of Jacob's Trouble... gentiles are not Jacob and have never been called Jacob.

The letter to the churches is actually the Book of Revelation itself.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

Revelation 1 to 3 describes the age of Church, revelation 4 to 19 describes the 70th week of Daniel, also known as Jacob’s Trouble

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And Revelation 2:22 specifically mentions the great tribulation re: one of the churches.
And in Revelation 3:18 the "gold tried in the fire" is also about the great tribulation.
Keeping the Commandments of God is also the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven....

The letter to the churches isn't a cover letter to the Book of Revelation.
The whole Book is a warning about "these things" that are "in the churches."

Revelation 22:16 I Ιησους have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


If I were a gentile church, I'd distance myself from these things.
Because Revelation is not about the gentile church... at all.

If it were about the gentile church, then
1 Corinthians 8:10 and 1 Corinthians 10:27
would = Revelation 2:14 and Revelation 2:20.
But it's not, so it isn't, right?

Ligurian said:

The letter to the churches isn't a cover letter to the Book of Revelation.
The whole Book is a warning about "these things" that are "in the churches."
Revelation 22:16 I Ιησους have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


If I were a gentile church, I'd distance myself from these things.
Because Revelation is not about the gentile church... at all.

If it were about the gentile church, then
1 Corinthians 8:10 and 1 Corinthians 10:27
would = Revelation 2:14 and Revelation 2:20.
But it's not, so it isn't, right?

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Ivan Hlavanda said:

The churches in the book of revelation are Christian churches. Ephesus for example was founded by Paul/ So I have no idea what you mean

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Some (if not most) say that the church at Ephesus was founded by John, and taken over by Paul... and then taken back by John.

And so, John probably wrote the Revelation AFTER Paul was long-gone.

And Peter was all over Anatolia with his Lost Sheep churches:

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect strangers (diaspora) scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

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Small window of opportunity, here, right?

Acts of the Apostles 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia,
2 Timothy 1:15 ...all they which are in Asia be turned away from me...

If Robinson's Redating the New Testament is correct,
then 2 Timothy was written in 58, and Acts in 57-62.

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The Revelation is not written to gentiles.

Matthew 10:5-7, Matthew 15:24, only unto Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
This mandate never changed... and John IS one of the 12 Disciples, so...

Ivan Hlavanda said:

The ten days may refer to the fact that the Early Church suffered ten major persecutions under Nero, Domitian, Trajan, Marcus Aurelius, Severus, Maximum, Decius, Valerian, Aurelian, and Diocletian. There were also some notable persecutions in the local Smyrna Church which lasted “ten days”. The meaning of this is that their imprisonment will be brief.

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Again, this is the devil-Satan throwing some in prison. It's not symbolic in nature referring to some human years ago. The verse mirrors the verse in Revelation 12 in that they loved not their lives to the death. And it specifically states that old dragon the devil/Satan. Very same entity. They will be tried and shall give a testimony. Same thing Christ talks about in the gospels.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Witness in the Greek is testimony.


Luke 21:13 "And it shall turn to you for a testimony."

Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought before-hand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit



Revelation 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

We can also see in these verses that the Holy Spirit has not left the earth as many pretribers believe.

evelation 3:10 presents a promise that Christ will rapture genuine believers out of the world before the Tribulation period begins.

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Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Keep in this verse means to guard, watch. It does not mean removed. These are the set aside ones that aren't tempted into believing that Satan is Christ. They kept the word of patience. Meaning they understood the warnings by Christ and Paul. They have the full gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day". They don't plan on getting harvested out of season to the first (fake) Christ on the scene.

John 17:15 "I pray not that Thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Keep in this verse is the very same Greek word in 3:10. It means to guard and watch over. It does not mean rapture.

Maybe you should think about why all the people of the Earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming. If believers where still here when Jesus comes, surely they are not going to mourn.

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These are going to be the people that actually believed Satan/Antichrist is Jesus Christ. That's the ultimate deception and Satan's MO. Paul states he will be disguised as an angel of light. And most of the world will believe it. Paul states people will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, the true Christ returns. That's why a pretrib rapture theory is so dangerous. Apostasy is departing from the truth. Many will go to Christ stating that cast out demons in his name and Christ will tell them to depart from him. Christ states during that time, if they say here is Christ or there is Christ, believe it not. He and Paul give our very strict warnings on deception.

The first ones taken are taken in by Antichrist/Satan. That's what taken means in those verses when translated back to the Greek -to associate oneselves with. They aren't raptured.

We are meeting Christ in the air. Air in the 1st Thes verse when translated back to the Greek doesn't mean sky as in elevation, it means the air we breath in. Meaning we will be in our spiritual bodies at that point because at the last trump all are changed, not removed.

Christ states "watch because he will come at an hour most do not expect" (thief in the night analogy) that's because most of the world will think he's already returned. That's the snare (trap) that will come upon the entire world.

We have to heed the warnings if we are part of that generation and we need to have the full gospel armour on to be able to stand in that "evil day" Paul is very adamant in his teachings about this. So much so he nailed down the timing of our gathering back to Christ in 2nd Thess when they too were confused and thought Christ could return anytime. He tells them that the day shall not happen until a falling away and the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God.

I used to believe as you did but it's not biblical. Christ only returns one more time at the 7th trump.

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

There's no in between or after.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

You are making false assumptions about me. I studied this subject for years, I had no idea what the book of revelation meant, but the more I read and study the Bible, the more I am convinced of the pre-trib rapture view. Besides, what I wrote is also supported by many Bible scholars, yes there is also many who do not share this view. I just wrote this post on why I believe this things to be, not there to argue with people. People can take what they want from it.

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When you make public statements on a Christian forum, expect a variety of Christian responses. I don't wish to argue with you, if that's what you want, but I do need to respond on behalf of those who will read your post and think you're covering the whole issue. You're not. As you rightly said, this is a contested issue. And so I'm just running down a quick list of things you're *not* saying.

But if you don't wish to argue about it, why do you continue? Not that I mind discussing it in a friendly way, but I thought....

Ivan Hlavanda said:

This is the argument I keep hearing all the time, but it's simply not true. Some Church fathers did believe in pre-trib rapture. These for example include Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century)

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From Justin Martyr to Lacantius, the dominant view was Premil, Postrib. The view that Christ's Coming was in a sense "imminent" doesn't cut it. Jesus has always said his Kingdom is nearby. Some seemingly "Pre-Wrath" sentiments may be expressed, but certainly not Pre-Trib. No Theology exists marking the Church as exiting *before* the Reign of Antichrist--not until John Darby in about 1830.

Even later in history, even before John Darby, there were those who posited that the Church may escape somewhere *during* the reign of Antichrist, but not before. I think the point is, no eschatology until John Darby conveyed this notion of an early exit of the Church *before* the Reign of Antichrist. And that is because virtually all Christians properly read Paul's message in 2 Thes 2 in which he warned us not to accept any claimed coming of the Lord until the time when Antichrist is to be destroyed by his Coming.

Not even Mid-Trib has much theological history to its name. The view throughout Christian history has been that Christ returns to destroy the Antichrist. Catching the Church out just before or at the same time as the destruction of Antichrist's Empire is not significant in this respect.

The whole idea of escape from tribulation is based on false allegories. The escape from the tribulation that began for the Jews in 70 AD was something promised to Christians at that time, but not to Christians during the reign of Antichrist. The escape by the church of Philadelphia from a world-wide tribulation is not applied to the Church at the end of the age during the reign of Antichrist. Allegorical arguments are weak, and rely on certain presumptions.

The Rapture of Enoch and Elijah do not apply to the Church--only to themselves. The rapture of the Apostle John in Rev 4 applied only to John--not to the Church. Such allegorical arguments are invalidated when theology prohibits it, which Paul does in 2 Thes 2.

Jesus himself said that he returns *after* the tribulations of the present age. Pretrib contradicts this.

The book of Revelation portrays Christ as coming to destroy the Antichrist, and adds that Christians should take warning not to add to the contents of the book. A Pretrib Rapture does just that, by adding a premature coming of Christ that does not exist in that document.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

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No: SEE

Ligurian said:

Revelation is not about the gentile church... at all.
If it were about the gentile church, then
1 Corinthians 8:10 and 1 Corinthians 10:27
would = Revelation 2:14 and Revelation 2:20.
But it's not, so it isn't.

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JulieB67 said:

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

Witness in the Greek is testimony.

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Matthew 24, Matthew 4:23, Matthew 10:5-7, Matthew 15:24, Matthew 26:13.

John 15:26-27 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth which proceedeth from the Father, He shall testify of Me:[27] And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.
Matthew 10:19-22 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.[20] For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

JulieB67 said:

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Keep in this verse means to guard, watch. It does not mean removed. These are the set aside ones that aren't tempted into believing that Satan is Christ. They kept the word of patience. Meaning they understood the warnings by Christ

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Revelation 2:14-20... yes, they do.

Revelation 3:8-10 I know thy works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut it, for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word and hast not denied My name.[9] Behold, I will make them of the assembly of Satan which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie: behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.[10] Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth.
John 17:6-8 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were and Thou gavest them Me and they have kept Thy word.[7] Now they have known that all things whatsoever Thou hast given Me are of Thee.[8] For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

JulieB67 said:

We are meeting Christ in the air. Air in the 1st Thes verse when translated back to the Greek doesn't mean sky as in elevation, it means the air we breath in. Meaning we will be in our spiritual bodies at that point because at the last trump all are changed, not removed.

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The Revelation is written to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, because that's where the 12 Galilaean Disciples were sent.

harpazo = to seize:--catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take by force.
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child was caught up unto God and [to] His throne.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
anabaino = to go up (literally or figuratively):--arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

RandyPNW said:

The book of Revelation portrays Christ as coming to destroy the Antichrist, and adds that Christians should take warning not to add to the contents of the book. A Pretrib Rapture does just that, by adding a premature coming of Christ that does not exist in that document.

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Excellent point.

It's not just adding to the Revelation, it's also taking away from this Book.

Revelation 22:16-19 [18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
18 Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου. ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπὶ ταῦτα, ἐπιθήσει ὁ Θεὸς ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ· 19 καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ.

Many translations are guilty of doing both.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

In Rev 2&3 Christ through John gives 7 messages to 7 churches. Each message was given to the seven churches as originally addressed. And these churches were in existence in Asia at the time of the revelation. Many other churches existed in Asia at the same time, but the churches selected were representative of the spiritual conditions which existed at that time. These messages can be applied to current churches of today. These special messages were written to the specific churches in Asia, but the same strengths and weaknesses can be found in today’s Body of Christ (Today’s Church). What Christ says to these churches is relevant in all times.

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I agree with this, but none of this has anything to do with a pre-trib rapture.

This is not some made up view by me, but many Bible scholars share this view also. I am not forcing my view on anyone, believe what you want.

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It's your pre-trib rapture view that I have a problem with, not your view that what Jesus said there can apply to churches throughout the New Testament time period up until today. While He did reference specific things that happened in those first century churches, He did teach principles there that can be applied ever since then.

Ok, I should have been more specific. Those believers in chapter 4 to 19 are the left behind Christians (they missed the rapture), who never truly believed, not born again of the Holy Spirit, thus not loving Christ first and He leaves them behind to go through the Tribulation.

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What? If these people never truly believed and are not born again then they are not Christians. So, why are you calling them Christians?

They by God's grace are saved through this Tribulation but are persecuted and killed by the antichrist.

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What does this mean? Aren't we all saved by God's grace? Don't we all go through tribulation and persecution?

2 Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

This happens during the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation, where I believe he will kill all the remaining Christians, then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God. Then Israel realising he is the false Messiah, kick him out, he gets angry and starts killing all the Jews. By God's grace, He will save a remnant, 1/3 of Israel as it is described in Zechariah 13:8 - these are the ones who according Zechariah 12:10 repent who they pierced on the cross.

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Jesus applied Zechariah 12:10 to the time when He was crucified. Why are you applying it to the future?

John 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken,” 37 and, as another scripture says, “They will look on the one they have pierced.”

This is all happening in the 2nd half of the Tribulation, also known as Great Tribulation where God will pour His wrath on the inhabitants on the Earth, and the remnant of Jews will be saved through it, and as Zechariah 13:9 says 'And I will put this third into the fire, and refine them as one refines silver, and test them as gold is tested. They will call upon my name, and I will answer them. I will say, ‘They are my people’; and they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’” The Great Tribulation will be much worse than Holocaust. This is why I said the Church, the born again Christians cannot be here during this period, because Jesus drank the cut of the wrath of God for us.

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Why do you apply Zechariah 13:9 to the future? Do you apply Zechariah 13:7 to the future as well?

Zechariah 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones. 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Zechariah 13:7 is quoted here:

Matthew 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

So, Jesus related it to His disciples running away after they came to take Him to be crucified. Also, notice how that passages talks about people being refined through the fire. That is not literal, but is talking about being spiritually refined through trials and tribulations.

Revelation 3:10 presents a promise that Christ will rapture genuine believers out of the world before the Tribulation period begins.

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No, it absolutely does not. Read John 17:15. Christ protects while we're in the world rather than taking us out of the world.

The “hour of temptation” is the period of worldwide testing (Greek peirasmos), which has not yet occurred (compare Dan. 12:1; Matt. 24:21, 29). Christ promises to keep them “from” (Greek ek, “out of”), the period of the Tribulation.

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To be kept from tribulation does not require being taken out of the world. The same Greek phrase is used here:

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

This makes it very clear that being kept from tribulation does not require being taken out of the world. So, you should interpret Revelation 3:10 accordingly.

Yes, but this are not the persecution and tribulations which Christians face, but about the coming 70th week of Daniel,

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The 70th week of Daniel is fulfilled. Jesus confirmed the new covenant with His blood long ago and that resulted in the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings no longer being required or wanted by God.

7 years of Tribulation with big T during which God pours His wrath on the inhabitants of the Earth, and as I explained, the believers cannot be here during that period.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 'Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.' Why would we be caught up with Him in the clouds and then come back down here again. He promised He will take us to His Fathers room (John 14).

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It says we will be where He is. He is coming to us. He will bring heaven to us. Why would we meet Him "in the air" if we're just going to be taken to heaven after that? Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven instead?

Maybe you should think about why all the people of the Earth will mourn when they see Jesus coming.

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I think you are the one who needs to think about what that means. They're not going to mourn His death, they (unbelievers) are going to wail in fear. Like it talks about here:

Revelation 6:15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

If believers where still here when Jesus comes, surely they are not going to mourn.

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Of course not. All believers will be caught up to meet Christ in the air when He comes and all unbelievers will be destroyed, as it teaches in passages like 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 and 2 Thess 1:7-10.

And, don't you think some become believers during a tribulation period before that? Why are you acting like there wouldn't be any believers on earth when He comes? Of course there will be. But, they won't mourn/wail because they are looking forward to His return. It is only the unbelievers who will be wailing in fear because of His return.

Again, I am not forcing my views on anyone.

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Who said you were? But, if you're going to share your views on a forum like this then you should expect your views to be challenged.

Spiritual Jew said:

What? If these people never truly believed and are not born again then they are not Christians. So, why are you calling them Christians?

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"Born again" is used the Gospel of the Kingdom, John 3:3-7, Matthew 15:24.
γεννηθή άνωθεν = born again

"New Creation" is said in the gospel to gentiles, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
καινή κτίσις = new creation

Acts of the Apostles 11:25-26 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:[26] And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

So... Barnabas and Paul's disciples were called Christians.

But Ιησους never called His 12 "Christians"... He called them His Disciples.

Ligurian said:

Excellent point.

It's not just adding to the Revelation, it's also taking away from this Book.

Revelation 22:16-19 [18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
18 Μαρτυρῶ ἐγὼ παντὶ τῷ ἀκούοντι τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας τοῦ βιβλίου τούτου. ἐάν τις ἐπιθῇ ἐπὶ ταῦτα, ἐπιθήσει ὁ Θεὸς ἐπ᾿ αὐτὸν τὰς πληγὰς τὰς γεγραμμένας ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ· 19 καὶ ἐάν τις ἀφέλῃ ἀπὸ τῶν λόγων τοῦ βιβλίου τῆς προφητείας ταύτης, ἀφελεῖ ὁ Θεὸς τὸ μέρος αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου τῆς ζωῆς καὶ ἐκ τῆς πόλεως τῆς ἁγίας, τῶν γεγραμμένων ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τούτῳ.

Many translations are guilty of doing both.

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Indeed, Pretrib takes away the Church from the time of Antichrist's reign, and it adds a Pretrib Rapture which does not exist. Dangerous to mess with God's word. We all need to be careful to represent the words of God just as written.

I do this as a regular practice in all of my discussions and arguments. I try to ensure that the Bible is speaking for itself, and only rely on explicit statements in the formation of dogma.

I've argued for decades that Postrib has actual biblical doctrine to uphold its position. You can see this most clearly in 2 Thes 2.

But Pretribs have at times admitted to me that they do *not* have explicit doctrine for their position. They think that allegorical evidence, when coupled with private revelation, translates into biblical doctrine. It doesn't!

They have claimed that Paul had "special revelation" that only "spiritual" Christians are able to receive. This places private revelation against the written revelation of the Bible, which is dangerous territory.

We should never sacrifice expressed ideas in Scripture for personal revelation, or supposed private intuition. The Holy Spirit speaks without lisping--He has no speech impediments. When He means to say something He comes out and says it clearly, so there is no misunderstanding. (Heard this last part from Walter Martin, I believe.)

Walter Martin on Postrib

For your interest, famed anti-cult American apologist Walter Martin, aka "the Bible Answerman," delivered this message by tape at the same time I had been writing to him on the subject. I asked him if he would share his Postrib beliefs, since I knew that he was a Postribber. So I may be the one he refers to at the start of the message, who "asked him" to make the message.

Ligurian said:

The Revelation is written to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel

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Scripture at the beginning of Revelation to show this to be true? It states to show his servants things that shortly must come to pass.

Ligurian said:

This is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

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It is the Revelation and testimony of Jesus Christ.

And many of the scattered tribes are Christians today.

Case in point, James' letter was to the tribes scattered abroad and so on.

Revelation 12 states very plainly that those who overcome Satan did so with the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. These are Christians.

Ivan Hlavanda said:

You are making false assumptions about me. I studied this subject for years, I had no idea what the book of revelation meant, but the more I read and study the Bible, the more I am convinced of the pre-trib rapture view. Besides, what I wrote is also supported by many Bible scholars, yes there is also many who do not share this view. I just wrote this post on why I believe this things to be, not there to argue with people. People can take what they want from it.



This is the argument I keep hearing all the time, but it's simply not true. Some Church fathers did believe in pre-trib rapture. These for example include Clement of Rome (35-101), Ignatius of Antioch (died 110), The Didache (a late first-century anonymous Christian treatise), The Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas (circa 70-130), and The Shepherd of Hermas (second century)

In a sermon entitled “On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” Syrian church father Pseudo-Ephraem (fourth to sixth century) wrote, “For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” The gathering Pseudo-Ephraem mentions appears to refer to a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church.

Even years before Darby, there were Christians who believed in pre-trib rapture or some ever mid-trib-rapture. Morgan Edwards (1722-1795) helped found Rhode Island College, which eventually became Brown University. While a student at Bristol Baptist Seminary, he set forth a very clear pre-tribulation Rapture belief: “The dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s ‘appearing in the air’ (1Thes.iv,17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium.

Even the Thessalonians, because of the persecution they were going through, were worried they missed coming of Christ, that they were not raptured and that they were left behind and are in the Tribulation period. Paul writes to tell them that they can’t possibly be in the Tribulation because two things have to occur before the Tribulation can begin: the “falling away” and the revelation of the man of sin. If religious apostasy is a means by which Paul expects the Thessalonians to know whether or not they are in the Tribulation, then he has failed to prove his point because there has always been religious apostasy, even in the time of the apostle Paul, and the Thessalonians were not in a position to distinguish any present apostasy from “THE apostasy.” However, if Paul was referring to the rapture of the church, then the Thessalonians could know with certainty that they could not yet be in the Tribulation.

As I said, during the second 3.5 years of Tribulation, God will pour His wrath on the inhabitants of Earth, (it's all written in the book of revelation, if you take things literally) and there is no way God will pour His wrath on us, Christians are we were judged in Christ who took the wrath.

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What about the 'last trump'? Where do you place it?

RandyPNW said:

Indeed, Pretrib takes away the Church from the time of Antichrist's reign, and it adds a Pretrib Rapture which does not exist. Dangerous to mess with God's word. We all need to be careful to represent the words of God just as written.

I do this as a regular practice in all of my discussions and arguments. I try to ensure that the Bible is speaking for itself, and only rely on explicit statements in the formation of dogma.

I've argued for decades that Postrib has actual biblical doctrine to uphold its position. You can see this most clearly in 2 Thes 2.

But Pretribs have at times admitted to me that they do *not* have explicit doctrine for their position. They think that allegorical evidence, when coupled with private revelation, translates into biblical doctrine. It doesn't!

They have claimed that Paul had "special revelation" that only "spiritual" Christians are able to receive. This places private revelation against the written revelation of the Bible, which is dangerous territory.

We should never sacrifice expressed ideas in Scripture for personal revelation, or supposed private intuition. The Holy Spirit speaks without lisping--He has no speech impediments. When He means to say something He comes out and says it clearly, so there is no misunderstanding. (Heard this last part from Walter Martin, I believe.)

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Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults... yes, I've heard him.

Ligurian said:

The Revelation is written to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, because that's where the 12 Galilaean Disciples were sent.

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JulieB67 said:

Scripture at the beginning of Revelation to show this to be true? It states to show his servants things that shortly must come to pass.

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Matthew 15:24 and Matthew 10:5-7 says to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel is the only place Messiah or His Disciples were ever sent. The 10-Lost-Tribes are the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel of the divided kingdom of Solomon. And when the Risen Messiah came back in His glorified body, He sent the 11 into the nations to find the Other Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. Because He tells them to make disciples with the same words He had used to make them: the Father's words, John 12:49-50. So... the Father sent His Son only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... and the Son sent His Disciples only unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... period.

It doesn't matter what Luke's hearsay says, since it's provable that Simon and James and John, etc., were common names, back in the day. And at least James the Lord's brother is being called an apostle by Paul in Galatians 1:19. And so, we see Joses, another of the Lord's brothers, as the original name of Barnabas... also associated with Paul. And James in Acts says Simon (another of the Lord's brothers) went to the gentiles... I'm thinking these are all the same men in John 7 who told their half-brother to go to Jerusalem--where the Jews were looking for Him, because they'd been trying to kill Him. Not stirling guys, but men who were told that the world couldn't hate them... meaning they were of the world.

JulieB67 said:

Revelation 12 states very plainly that those who overcome Satan did so with the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. These are Christians.

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The word "Christian" only shows up three times in the Bible.
So, whichever guy it is that was named peter/simon/simeon/cephas who actually wrote 1 Peter, seems to be connected to Acts... ...because I don't believe in coincidence. None of the Four Gospels or the Revelation use the word "Christian"... until Barnabas (aka Joses) shows up with Saul in Antioch.

Ligurian said:

Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults... yes, I've heard him.

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When I was a young man, I lived in S. CA on my own and listened to his broadcasts. Hank Hanegraaff took over for him after his death. Martin was one of a kind, and the absolute best at exposing the false Christian cults like JWs, Christian Science, Mormonism, etc. Nobody better.

Listening to him taught me how to think critically, based on the Bible as the authority. I met up with a guy who worked for CRI, his organization, and have connected with others in his organization by Facebook.

I wish more Christians would start their theological training with a course or two from Walter Martin. I'm sure you can still listen to some of his messages online.