Imputed

ralliann · Jun 22, 2022

daq said:
You are making my point for me while denying it is my point, lol.

No, not your point. It is me making a point.

daq · Jun 22, 2022

ralliann said:
All the seed unto whom the promises come. Those in Christ Jesus, the Mediator of all the royal seed.

And?

ralliann said:
In the disanulling of the carnal commandment. Circumcision in foreskin of the flesh no longer applies.

And?

ralliann said:
Hear TORAH

False insinuation.

ralliann said:
The two covenants can be understood by the women as an allegory.

Yes, I know, and I just showed you more scripture where you can begin to understand the allegory Paul speaks about.

ralliann said:
Who is assuming? Do you think Paul is?

It is you who assumed that when Paul says "we", in Galatians 3:25, that he means himself and you. Again, see Galatians 1:1-2 which was already quoted, "Paul, an apostle.......And all the brethren who are with me..." ("we", Galatians 3:23-25).

ralliann said:
Until you comply with acknowledging Pauls wisdom and understanding of Torah in the Covenants concerning twelve princes vs kings, it is a waste of time IMO. You are simply rejecting, ignoring TORAH from the apostle Paul.

Until you actually believe the Testimony of the Messiah, and likewise Paul who also teaches the commandments of the Master, you will not understand. One of the worst things about dogmas is that they end up overruling scripture logos and logic: the adherent to the dogma then becomes imprisoned by their own dogma and cannot see the light. Moreover it is the sons who are set free.

And are the sons of Abraham not like Abraham? What Paul says of Yerushalem of above being the mother of us all, (Sarah of the allegory), he says likewise of Abraham, that he is the father of us all, (Romans 4:16). Again, see the logic and the logos in what the James 2 passage (already quoted) is actually teaching about Abraham and his true sons.

ralliann · Jun 22, 2022

Clare73 said:
You need a better Bible.
Like "renewed law" in Hebrews 8:13, see following link:

Galatians 3 - shows New Covenant Gospel is before Sinai,

Exactly. More important is the promises there are immutable by the oath sworn. The law added 430 years later cannot abolish the promises. Sinai is not the fufillment of the Blessing of Judah by Israel.
This blessing is immutable BEFORE THE LAW TO ABRAHAM. Gen 17 establishes this, not Sinai.
Ge 49:10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

ralliann · Jun 22, 2022

daq said:
You have not understood my argument from the beginning.

James 2:23 N/A-W/H
23 και επληρωθη η γραφη η λεγουσα επιστευσεν δε αβρααμ τω θεω και ελογισθη αυτω εις δικαιοσυνην και φιλος θεου εκληθη

Your argument has been ignorant or silent on Torah as Paul taught. And you still are not addressing it.
A covenant not made with their fathers....
Deut 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

daq · Jun 22, 2022

ralliann said:
Your argument has been ignorant or silent on Torah as Paul taught. And you still are not addressing it.

That's an empty and false accusation. I am already telling you my understanding of Paul's teachings straight from his own epistles. The problem you appear to have is that you separate Paul's words from other authors of the apostolic writings and therefore are apparently unable to believe what Yakob says about the same teaching.

The statement that Abram believed and it was accounted unto him for righteousness is not fulfilled until he was tested in Genesis 22. That's what Yakob is teaching, whether you wish to accept it or not, and it is never going to change or be rescinded just because you are unable to incorporate that teaching into your dogma.

Romans 4:16-17 ASV
16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all
17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were.

We are called heirs before the promise is actually fulfilled: for Elohim calls things that are not as though they were. But just as I have said from the scripture teachings, this is like an earnest, (which Paul speaks about), until the time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a tried, true, and tested son: each in his or her own appointed times, the time appointed of the Father.

Yusuphhai · Jun 24, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
I get your point, and it's not a bad one. My point (at least, I think that my point) was merely that Greece was not bereft of the notion of monotheism.

In fact, I don't think any one people have been. The individual person precludes it; as Romans says, instinct (in my opinion, consciousness of one's existence impinging on reason) demands monotheism, including an accounting for justice (centered on one source and judge), and a sovereign singular cause, an entity (which I call "First Cause, With Purpose"). The individual conscious being may not take it that specifically, but they know enough that, per Romans 1:20, they are without excuse.

Mature Christians would find that the seed planted in their hearts comes from God's promise to Abraham. God established a covenant with Abraham and his descendants (seed). Non Abrahamic descendants (seed) are far away from the covenant in varying degrees. Why does Paul think that the Gentile believer is the seed of Abraham in spiritual sense? Paul emphasized that the seed was singular, and Yeshua, as the special seed of Abraham, planted the covenant of Abraham and subsequent holy covenants in the hearts of Gentile believers. Why is Yeshua the seed of Abraham? He (Word) narrowed and lowered himself, and his body entered a specific historical era, inheriting and fulfilling the covenant of Abraham and the holy covenants of all ages. This seed is in Abraham and his descendants (historical significance), and Abraham and his descendants are also in this seed (truth significance).

Be Abrahamic descendants does not mean doing harm to Gentile Characters. Yeshua the seed manages 70 angels to care the 70 nations of the world. “believe on/in Jesus Christ truly” is good. Every nation has its unique understanding about faith (amen, truth). Enter the heart(core) of Abrahamic Faith is a long learning journey. Abraham is the father of all believers.

Yahudim · Jul 10, 2022

Anyone who thinks that justification begins with Abraham, did not read Bereshith 1 through 4 carefully enough. Anyone that thinks that 'the law' has been fulfilled instead of all of the prophecies about Messiah, misses the point of His sacrifice and the whole context of this 'New' covenant.

Torah stands. Obedience is required to maintain that justification that was 'imputed'. So go to the window and see if the heavens and the earth are still there. If so, then so it is with Torah and the Prophets and the Writings.

Faith is following the instructions of Elohim in belief. Noah did it, Abraham did it and Jacob did it, to name a few. Faith being accounted (or imputed) as righteousness to Abraham is a lesson for us all, not a one time event.

Being justified by the sacrifice of Messiah does not relieve anyone of the requirements of obedience to Torah. It only relieves us from obedience to Rabbinic traditions. See Mathew 21. Their authority ended with the murder of Messiah and was finalized with the destruction of the Mishkan. That's how I see it.

Yahudim · Jul 10, 2022

If you love me...

Perhaps you missed the whole, 'Faith without works...' thing.

Yahudim · Jul 10, 2022

This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.

Yahudim · Jul 10, 2022

Like Father, like Son. He changes not. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. There is no shadow of turning in Him. But according to the traditions of the 'Church' (whichever set of Dogmatic errors to which you subscribe), He just decided one day that His ETERNAL covenant was fulfilled? Done? Over? Kaput? Not according to the Master! Reminds me of that Island in the Caribbean, Saint Hapnin'.

Ok, let's try this a different way.

He made a covenant with Adam; Eat of the 'fruit'; you will surely die. So people are no longer dying? No, we are still surviving by the sweat of our brows and then we die. Covenant still stands.
He made a covenant with Noah; Waters above and below are flooding the earth again? No, the waters receded. Covenant still stands. See the pretty rainbow?
He made a covenant with Abraham to bless his seed. No longer happening? No, it's still happening. He is still blessing His Seed. Covenant still stands.
He made a covenant with Jacob to give his children the land forever. Read Jerimiah. Want to buy some real estate? Covenant still stands.
He made a covenant with Moses and the Children of Israel to be their Elohim forever, according to His Law. Yep, you guessed it. Covenant still stands.
He made a covenant with David to give his Seed, the Messiah the Throne of Israel forever. Is He the King or WHAT? Yup. Covenant still stands.
He made a covenant through Messiah to all that would keep His Commandments and believe Messiah is the Son of Elohim. Do you believe in Messiah and keep His commandments so that you can rule and reign with Him during His thousand year reign of Peace and rest? Whether you do or don't - Covenant still stands.

Yes He makes new covenants. He makes newer and better promises. But He DOES NOT break His Word. His ETERNAL covenants are just that: ETERNAL.

:amen:

Yahudim · Jul 11, 2022

visionary said:
Can someone please explain ...
"Imputed righteousness..... a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith even though practically they are still guilty of sinning." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification.

Hi Vis, Great thread. :oldthumbsup:

How did I do?

Soyeong · Jul 11, 2022

visionary said:
Can someone please explain ...
"Imputed righteousness..... a concept in Christian theology proposing that the "righteousness of Christ... is imputed to [believers] — that is, treated as if it were theirs through faith even though practically they are still guilty of sinning." It is on the basis of Jesus' righteousness that God accepts humans. This acceptance is also referred to as justification.

We express our character traits through our actions, so to say that someone is courageous is to say that they are someone who chooses to take actions that express courage, and it would be inaccurate to describe someone as courageous is they were someone who chooses to take actions that don't express courage. Likewise, to say that God is righteous is describing the way that He chooses to act, and it would be inaccurate to describe God as righteous if He choose to not do what is righteous, so there is no such thing as being counted as righteous while not also becoming someone who chooses to do what is righteous in obedience to the Torah. In Hebrews 1:3, the Son is the exact expression of God's nature, so among other things, he is the personification of righteousness expressed through living in obedience to the Torah, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who he is, and that is also the way that we live when we have been imputed with his righteousness.

Yahudim · Jul 11, 2022

Clare73 said:
I am a female and son/child of God. (Romans 8:19; Galatians 3:26)

I am grafted into the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church,
going all the way back to Abraham (Romans 11:17),
in which there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile (Galatians 3:28-29),
and into which church it is Israel's destiny to be grafted back,
if they do not continue in unbelief (Romans 11:23),
which they have for two millennia now, and still counting. . .

I'm not sure I follow. Do you believe that all Jews have been expelled from the 'church' (assembly, synagogue)?

visionary · Jul 11, 2022

The nt church is filled with jews zealous for the law.. how do you picture it

visionary · Jul 11, 2022

Well taught by the wrong faith

FreeinChrist · Jul 12, 2022

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is temporarily closed for review and clean up.

HARK! · Jul 13, 2022

MOD HAT ON

Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

MOD HAT OFF

Yahudim · Jul 20, 2022

I just wrote a long, detailed and educational post in answer to ralliann's question. Suddenly, her question and my response is *pfst* gone without explanation. From what I could tell, her question didn't violate any rules. I don't think mine did either. But what do I know?

My neuropathy is screaming at me. My hands are throbbing. They just wanted to say, 'Thanks! and Good night!'

BrotherJJ · Jul 23, 2022

visionary said:
Can someone please explain ...

Sorry wrong forum

Yahudim · Jul 24, 2022

BrotherJJ said:
1 Cor 15:1 I declare the gospel which I preached to you. (2/A) By which also ye are saved. (3/A) Christ died for our sins. (4) was buried & that he rose again the third day" according to the scriptures:

Hi BrotherJJ, to what 'scriptures' do you think this verse refers?

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