God a glorified dictator?

mmarco said:

Jesus said explicitly that apart from Him we can do nothing, and this obviously implies that we cannot love

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It implies nothing of the sort. Context is 'bearing fruit'. Those grafted in will bear fruit (e.g. gain new converts) whereas those that are not grafted in will not bear fruit.

The way you seem to be reading the passage implies that those not on the vine can do nothing including eating, sleeping, talking, moving..etc.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:

It implies nothing of the sort. Context is 'bearing fruit'. Those grafted in will bear fruit (e.g. gain new converts) whereas those that are not grafted in will not bear fruit.

The way you seem to be reading the passage implies that those not on the vine can do nothing including eating, sleeping, talking, moving..etc.

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Your interpretaion is wrong; nothing means nothing. The point is that it is God who sustains the whole universe, including all the physical processes that occur inside our brain, which are necessary for us to think and live our earthly life. Therefore, apart from God, we can really do nothing at all.

Apart from God we can bear no fruit. The unsaved fall in love or lust. Some get married for a lifetime. They are sometimes good parents, excellent at jobs are more shrewd business men and women. But can bear no fruit in Christ. Don’t grow spiritually, but maybe generous. Don’t preach but overcome fear to be in front of people. We are just like the world and yet forgiven. We can have fruit to Jesus. Grow in Christlike love, forgive others, help people to know Christ. Be crucifying the flesh daily. We are all not perfect but should be on a level playing field. I thought all meant all too but the world clearly can do stuff. ……….

Unqualified said:

Apart from God we can bear no fruit. The unsaved fall in love or lust. Some get married for a lifetime. They are sometimes good parents, excellent at jobs are more shrewd business men and women. But can bear no fruit in Christ. Don’t grow spiritually, but maybe generous. Don’t preach but overcome fear to be in front of people. We are just like the world and yet forgiven. We can have fruit to Jesus. Grow in Christlike love, forgive others, help people to know Christ. Be crucifying the flesh daily. We are all not perfect but should be on a level playing field. I thought all meant all too but the world clearly can do stuff. ……….

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The point is that God acts also in unbelievers, even if they are not aware of this. As I said, God sustains the all universe and the world can do stuff only because it is not totally abandoned by God.

It’s not totally abandoned by God, God gave then life . He is all in all. He is calling them. He is working to save them. Eph 4:6

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people. That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command. Free will is a whole other can of worms.

Lastly, the Bible frequently talks about God being the literal end of pleasure in itself - it just makes it look like everyone who gets to be in Heaven with him will be in a full catonic state and they will only be worshiping God for how great he is. On the surface of things, this would definitely make God look like the ultimate narcicist who only does whatever plan he does for mankind to worship him and admire how great he is. He also wants his creation below him to be equally mediocre. Nobody would be better at anything or more good looking in a certain quality than one other, even if the person wasn't aiming to replace God.

The late Christopher Hitchens made an interesting comparison of God's eternal kingdom and a "celestial North Korea" and in some ways it does in fact remind me of that, if we are indeed correct about our understanding of the Biblical description of it.

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God means God/Creator. It's just a matter of circumstance, so any speculation is going to err when trying to make God/Creator into an image like unto a man. He made us to know Him Spiritually as a Father Who would sacrifice Himself to save us.

mmarco said:

John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

We can cooperate with God's grace and through God's grace, we can love, but apart from God, we cannot love.

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OK all those non Christians who think they love their spouse and family looks like you are all wrong.

disciple Clint said:

OK all those non Christians who think they love their spouse and family looks like you are all wrong.

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As i said, God acts also in unbelievers, even if they are not aware of this. God loves everybody.

mmarco said:

Your interpretaion is wrong; nothing means nothing. The point is that it is God who sustains the whole universe, including all the physical processes that occur inside our brain, which are necessary for us to think and live our earthly life. Therefore, apart from God, we can really do nothing at all.

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You seem to be in a logically contradictory loop. Either those who are apart from God can do nothing. Except that there are plenty of atheists who are talking, writing and living normal lives. Which means that they can do something apart from God

or

All the writing, talking etc. is being done by God rather through them. Meaning that God is opposing himself, creating chaos rather than order. This is not the Biblical description of God.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:

You seem to be in a logically contradictory loop. Either those who are apart from God can do nothing. Except that there are plenty of atheists who are talking, writing and living normal lives. Which means that they can do something apart from God

or

All the writing, talking etc. is being done by God rather through them. Meaning that God is opposing himself, creating chaos rather than order. This is not the Biblical description of God.

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You have missed the point; unbelievers are not totally abandoned by God, because God loves also unbelievers; unbelievers are not totally apart from God because God sustains all the universe, including the physical processes that occur in our brains, which are necessary, also for unbelievers, to think, talk, write and live normal lives. God loves everybody and He acts also in unbelievers, even if they are not aware of this. This does not mean that we are not responsible of what we do; this means that we cannot do anything by ourselves without God. Your conclusion that God is opposing himself does not follow from what I wrote.

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people. That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command. Free will is a whole other can of worms.

Lastly, the Bible frequently talks about God being the literal end of pleasure in itself - it just makes it look like everyone who gets to be in Heaven with him will be in a full catonic state and they will only be worshiping God for how great he is. On the surface of things, this would definitely make God look like the ultimate narcicist who only does whatever plan he does for mankind to worship him and admire how great he is. He also wants his creation below him to be equally mediocre. Nobody would be better at anything or more good looking in a certain quality than one other, even if the person wasn't aiming to replace God.

The late Christopher Hitchens made an interesting comparison of God's eternal kingdom and a "celestial North Korea" and in some ways it does in fact remind me of that, if we are indeed correct about our understanding of the Biblical description of it.

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Hello. What do you think about God, heaven, afterlife, salvation etc yourself? You try to analyze what you understand about certain beliefs, but what are your own thoughts on the subject? Thank you!

VCR-2000 said:

I always agreed intellectually that there is a God and that his son came to the earth in flesh and returned to Heaven after.

But I can't also help but think that God in a lot of ways is like an autocratic dictator or does actions and has characteristics similar to what we would call as an archetypical "authority" on Earth. I believe the Bible states directly that God is the superior authority in many of its books, and it also states directly that those who happen to reject his ways will suffer in eternal damnation even if they were otherwise "good" people.

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Otherwise good people? According to what standard? God sets Himself as the standard of good and to His perfect standard no one measures up - or gets anywhere close. It is because this is so that we need forgiveness and redemption.

God is Sovereign over all He has made. He has created everything and, as Creator of All, He has a singular prerogative to call the shots within His Creation. He also sustains everything moment-by-moment which further cements His right to order things as He likes. What is shocking is that we would oppose His sovereignty, defy His right to rule. It's His universe; He can do as He likes with it. And He will, whatever we might think about Him doing so.

VCR-2000 said:

That means there is no room for negotiation, it reminds me of the situation where the mob boss says that your friend will be shot if you choose to disobey the mob dealer's command. Free will is a whole other can of worms.

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I hardly think God is a "mob boss." There is a massive category error in your comparison. You are right, though: There is no negotiating with God. We have no basis from which to do so with God. We have nothing He needs. He's perfect, requiring nothing.

VCR-2000 said:

Lastly, the Bible frequently talks about God being the literal end of pleasure in itself - it just makes it look like everyone who gets to be in Heaven with him will be in a full catonic state and they will only be worshiping God for how great he is.

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And the problem is? If one loves God, this isn't a dim prospect at all. Only those who have rejected God, who believe they should be free of Him, find an eternity lived in praise of Him repulsive. In any case, catatonic euphoria isn't anything like the picture the Bible paints of eternity with God. Not even close.

VCR-2000 said:

On the surface of things, this would definitely make God look like the ultimate narcicist who only does whatever plan he does for mankind to worship him and admire how great he is.

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So, when you watch the winner of the 100 meter sprint at the Olympics run his victory lap, arms in the air, cheered by the watching audience as he does, proud and basking in the praise of the crowd, do you think, "What a show-off. He's such a narcissist"? I don't. I think he's worthy of all the praise he's getting, given what he's done in winning the sprint. Now, all the sprinter has done is win a ten-second footrace. In comparison to the creation of the entire universe and its continual sustainment, winning a quick sprint is incredibly trivial. But people don't balk at praising the sprinter, anyway. How much more worthy of praise is God, then, as the Maker and Sustainer of Everything? If anyone deserves endless praise, it's Him. He's worthy of such praise, acting to warrant it by His incredible, mind-blowing act of creation and by virtue of the excellency of who He is.

What is strange to me is to hear people suggest God is merely vain, as though He has done nothing to deserve our praise at all.

VCR-2000 said:

He also wants his creation below him to be equally mediocre.

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Mediocre compared to what?

VCR-2000 said:

The late Christopher Hitchens made an interesting comparison of God's eternal kingdom and a "celestial North Korea" and in some ways it does in fact remind me of that, if we are indeed correct about our understanding of the Biblical description of it.

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Consider the source of this description. If nothing else, Hitchens was deeply prejudiced against the God of Christians, acutely despising the God revealed in the Bible, and his comparisons reveal this prejudice rather than accurately describe affairs relating to God.

Silly Uncle Wayne said:

It implies nothing of the sort. Context is 'bearing fruit'. Those grafted in will bear fruit (e.g. gain new converts) whereas those that are not grafted in will not bear fruit.

The way you seem to be reading the passage implies that those not on the vine can do nothing including eating, sleeping, talking, moving..etc.

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As the Creator, Jesus is the Source of our physical existence, imparting to us everything we are and can do. In him, we "live and move and have our being," the apostle Paul declared (Acts 17:28). See also: Colossians 1:15-17, John 1:3. While the context of John 15:5 is spiritual in its primary meaning, it is nonetheless the case that we can do nothing physically without Christ, too.

God is a Shepherd looking after His sheep. God is harsh to Israel, such that the Jews can be put to an exile of 2000 years without losing their sense of religion and customs, without their own homeland. No other ethnicity can survive such a long period of time without losing its own identity. To put it another way, God is harsh to His own chosen people such that they are well trained up to carry God's message of salvation to save today's humans.

God only shows His mercy and grace to us gentiles. We learn from His harshness to the Jews to understand His grace granted to all mankind.

VCR-2000 said:

God could have also prevented his angel Lucifer from getting to the point of becoming Satan and then he also would have no need to create a Hell. Again, he wanted to make it a long and drawn-out battle just because he wants to show everyone how awesome he is.

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First, freewill signifies division. This is scientific and mathematical. Freewill means one is given the ability to accept or reject God. By mathematics then, some will thus choose to reject God or free will doesn't exist mathematically speaking.

Second, Lucifer and all other beings are allowed to exercise their free will till the coming of the Final Judgment. The only legitimate way to remove Satan is through Law with the legal/lawful process known as the Final Judgment. Actually, Satan helps to speed up such a division as logically resulted by free will. With Satan in place, humans divide much faster and the division completes itself within our lifetime. Without Satan then it may take, say, 500 years for a human to fully show who he is such that the Final Judgment can have the expected effect.

The purpose of Law and the Final Judgment is to determine who is qualified to live in Heaven, that is, to live an eternity with God.

VCR-2000 said:

But it is clear that if one doesn't want to admit that what one is doing is wrong and changes their way and lifestyle to the parameters God would desire, then that person is condemned to Hell and eternal torment (which is the most horrible fate to be, I don't know anybody except the smallest minority of great psychopaths or masochists in this world who say they actively choose such a ghastly never-ending destiny), so in that way yes that is fair to compare to a mob boss. "Change your ways and life to my demand or the child gets it."


I view lust and desire as similar to hunger. If I saw a person who was really starving, I would feed them what food I have. It's a funny stretch to say that the action of desiring or wanting to pursue a thing or activity is something in and of itself being "unfree" or living under a dictatorship. Also, people can get desperate when they aren't getting something they desire or hunger for, like how most people who steal food are destitute and starving. Because they lack it that is the reason for them being desperate like that.


Christianity has some parallels to Buddhism. About giving up every material human joy and activity to aspire to live an ascetic life, as if somehow those are inherently corrupted or that God is so jealous of his creation that he and other pleasures can't co-exist.


You are right that there are those who are dictators today, but again I think it is a quite a broad statement to suggest that all or even most humans are "their own dictators".


And God could also have willed not to create humankind, so then his judgement would be moot because we were non-existing. And non-existence isn't intrinsically a good or bad, it just is.


God could have also prevented his angel Lucifer from getting to the point of becoming Satan and then he also would have no need to create a Hell. Again, he wanted to make it a long and drawn-out battle just because he wants to show everyone how awesome he is.

What if people empathized sometimes and admitted that God is like what we would consider 'dictator' in some ways?

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You probably already know that not every Christian believes that hell is a place of eternal punishment. Similar to Young Earth, it's not a required belief, imo.

VCR-2000 said:

What if people empathized sometimes and admitted that God is like what we would consider 'dictator' in some ways?

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He dictates between what is good and what is bad. This is for our own good.