Which Law Paul?

Paul4JC · Jan 1, 2022

HARK! said:
Hebrews mentions nothing of YHWH's eternal Law passing away.

I think he's referring to the old covenant.

[Heb 8:6-13 NIV] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

[Luk 22:20 NIV] 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

[2Co 3:6 NIV] 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[Heb 9:15 NIV] 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

[Heb 12:24 NIV] 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

BobRyan · Jan 1, 2022

BobRyan said:
In Acts 21 they tell Paul that there is a distinction between what Jews were being commanded vs Gentiles.

Acts 21:“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law. 25 But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we sent a letter, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took along the men, and the next day, after purifying himself together with them, he went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Notice that they engage in the very sacrifices in vs 26 that Hebrews 10 says are ended.

HARK! said:
Jew? What is a Jew? The letter J didn't even exist until about the Year 1500 AD.

So are you saying you don't like that Bible translation for Acs 21:21,25??

However you wish to translate the greek - it is clear that two groups of believers in Christ are being mentioned - one called Jews and the other Gentile - or whatever name you wish to use there for the same idea in Acts 21.

Clare73 · Jan 1, 2022

HARK! said:
This passage makes it clear that the Word of YHWH is found in Moses. In the beginning was the word.
However, Yahcob makes it clear that not all of the customs should be discounted.
(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

That has nothing to do with discounting customs.

That has to do with Paul teaching salvation and justification/righteousness apart from works of the law (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, Romans 4:5), it being characterized as "apostasy from Moses," and Paul making himself acceptable to the Jews that they might receive the gospel from him
--making himself all things to all men (1 Corinthians 9:22) that he might save some (1 Corinthians 9:19-20).

Clare73 · Jan 1, 2022

Maria Billingsley said:
The law leading to death.
"5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death".

"All who rely on observing the law are under a curse (death)." (Galatians 3:10)
.

Clare73 · Jan 1, 2022

Soyeong said:
In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted it with the law of sin that was holding him captive, that was waging war against the law of his mind, which he he served with his flesh,
so it should be worth considering which of the two laws he was referring to us not be under

It should likewise be worth considering that he was referring to neither of these. . .
for the law (desire) of sin and the law (desire) of obeying God's law of Romans 7:21-25 is not the law of Romans 7:4; i.e., the Mosaic law, to which Paul was referring.

insofar as Romans 7:6 speaks about being delivered from a law that held us captive,
yet you are treating the Law of God as being the same as the law of sin,

Nope. . .she is doing no such thing. . .you are the one doing that.

The law of God in Romans 7:4 is not the law (desire) of sin nor the law (desire) of obedience.
Romans 7:4 is the written code of the Mosaic law itself. . .it is not Paul's desires of Romans 7:21-25 regarding the written code of the Mosaic law, which desires are at war within Paul himself.

and are wanting to be delivered from the Law of God that Paul delighting in obeying.

Nope. . .she is doing no such thing. . .Paul is the one stating that (Romans 7:4). . .take it up with him.

Paul said he was not under the law (2 Corinthians 9:20) but was under the law of Christ, which is the law of God (2 Corinthians 9:21).

HARK! · Jan 1, 2022

Maria Billingsley said:
Your quoting the Old Covenant statues. We now under the New Covenant but like I said, it does not matter. Jesus Christ of Nazareth said " If they are not against us they are for us". I am for Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Yahshua spoke his father's words. These are his father's words.

YHWH told Jeremiah something very similar:

(CLV) Hb 8:10
"For this is the covenant which I shall be covenanting with the house of Israel after those days," the Lord is saying: "Imparting My laws to their comprehension, On their hearts, also, shall I be inscribing them, And I shall be to them for a God, And they shall be to Me for a people.

Yahshua obeyed his father's words; and he called us to follow him. What do you suppose this means?

Here is what Paul said on this subject:

(CLV) 1Co 11:1
Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.

HARK! · Jan 1, 2022

Paul4JC said:
I think he's referring to the old covenant.

[Heb 8:6-13 NIV] 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

[Luk 22:20 NIV] 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

[2Co 3:6 NIV] 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

[Heb 9:15 NIV] 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance--now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

[Heb 12:24 NIV] 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

A covenant and a law are two different things.

HARK! · Jan 1, 2022

BobRyan said:
So are you saying you don't like that Bible translation for Acs 21:21,25??

However you wish to translate the greek - it is clear that two groups of believers in Christ are being mentioned - one called Jews and the other Gentile - or whatever name you wish to use there for the same idea in Acts 21.

We have ffive groups who we could attribute these two titles to.

1.) We have the natural born descendants of Israel. Some of them remained Yahudim. Others became Goyim.

2.We have those Goyim who became Yahudim before they left Egypt, fellow citizens of Israel. Some of them remained Yahudim. Others became Goyim.

3.) We have the Ger Toshav, much like Abraham, before the righteousness of his faith was sealed. They were previously Goyim, blood descendants of Israel or not. They are seekers, in faith, but have not reached a fullness of faith. They are not full citizens of Israel. They are excluded from the Passover.

4.) We have the Ger Tzedek, who have sealed their righteousness of faith, and who have become full citizens of Israel. They were previously Goyim, blood descendants of Israel or not.

5.) Then we have the straight up Goyim. They were always Goyim, blood descendants of Israel or not.

There are other subgroups; but in general terms, they fit into these five groups.

Which two groups do you suppose that Paul is speaking of?

HARK! · Jan 1, 2022

Clare73 said:
That has nothing to do with discounting customs.

James specifically mentioned customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

BobRyan · Jan 1, 2022

In Acts 21 they tell Paul that there is a distinction between what Jews were being commanded vs Gentiles.

Acts 21:“You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to abandon Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 So what is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.

23 Therefore, do as we tell you: we have four men who have a vow upon themselves; 24 take them along and purify yourself together with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and then everyone will know that there is nothing to what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also conform, keeping the Law. 25 But regarding the Gentiles who have believed, we sent a letter, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and what is strangled, and from sexual immorality.” 26 Then Paul took along the men, and the next day, after purifying himself together with them, he went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Notice that they engage in the very sacrifices in vs 26 that Hebrews 10 says are ended.(From God's POV)

Heb 10:4-12

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

HARK! said:
Jew? What is a Jew? The letter J didn't even exist until about the Year 1500 AD.

That is the NASB Bible translation for Acs 21:21,25

However you wish to translate the greek - it is clear that two groups of believers in Christ are being mentioned - one called Jews and the other Gentile - or whatever name you wish to use there for the same idea in Acts 21.

HARK! said:
Which two groups do you suppose that Paul is speaking of?

It's the same discussion they had just had in Act 15.

It looks a lot like the discussion you see in Galatians.

They leave Israel and encounter a lot of gentiles among the Romans and Greeks. And when they convert them -- presto that Acts 15 issue shows up and that is what is being referred to in Acts 26:21,25

Soyeong · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
It should likewise be worth considering that he was referring to neither of these. . .
for the law (desire) of sin and the law (desire) of obeying God's law of Romans 7:21-25 is not the law of Romans 7:4; i.e., the Mosaic law, to which Paul was referring.

Sure, it could be worth considering whether it refers to a different law than the Law of God or the law of sin, however, in Deuteronomy 5:31-33, Moses wrote down everything that God commanded him without departing from it so the Law of Moses is the Law of God. Likewise, the Law of Moses is referred to as the Law of God in verses like Nehemiah 8:1-8, Ezra 7:6-12, and Luke 2:22-23, so the Law of God in Romans 7:21-25 is referring to the Law of Moses. Furthermore, Paul delighting in obeying the Law of Moses is consistent with David repeatedly saying throughout the Psalms that he delighted in obeying the Law of Moses.

On the other hand, it wouldn't make sense to interpret Romans 7:4 as referring to the Law of Moses. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to set us free from the Law of Moses, but to redeem us from all lawlessness, so Romans 7:4 is consistent with dying to the law of sin through the body of Christ. In 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, and he walked in obedience to the Law of Moses, so obedience to the Law of Moses is the way to be unified with Christ, and it would be contradictory to need to die to the Law of Moses in order to be unified with Christ. Furthermore, the Law of Moses is God's instructions for how to bear fruit for Him, and it would be contradictory to need to die to God's instructions for how to bear fruit for him in order to be free to bear fruit for Him.

Nope. . .she is doing no such thing. . .you are the one doing that.

The law of God in Romans 7:4 is not the law (desire) of sin nor the law (desire) of obedience.
Romans 7:4 is the written code of the Mosaic law itself. . .it is not Paul's desires of Romans 7:21-25 regarding the written code of the Mosaic law, which desires are at war within Paul himself.

Paul said that the Law of God is good, that he wanted to do good, and that there was a law of sin that was working within him members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do, so the Law of God is the opposite of the law of sin, and I have not be treating them as the same law. On the contrary, in Romans 7:7, Paul said the the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, while a law that stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is a law that is sinful, so Romans 7:5 can't be referring the Law of God, but rather it matches with Paul's description of the law of sin, and by interpreting Romans 7:5 as referring to the Law of God, she was treating it as being the same as the law of sin.

Nope. . .she is doing no such thing. . .Paul is the one stating that (Romans 7:4). . .take it up with him.

Paul said he was not under the law (2 Corinthians 9:20) but was under the law of Christ, which is the law of God (2 Corinthians 9:21).

I have no problem with what Paul said, just with your unjustified interpretation of it. In 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not outside the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of Christ, after all Christ is God, so the Law of Moses is also the Law of God and the Law of Christ. Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Law of Moses both by word and by example, so again that is the Law of Christ.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

BobRyan said:
Notice that they engage in the very sacrifices in vs 26 that Hebrews 10 says are ended.

I already responded to this assertion.

I would encourage you to read over this extensive study that I have started on this subject:

YHWH's Table (Part 1)

I'm convinced that neither James nor Paul were not rebelling against their own teachings.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

BobRyan said:
That is the NASB Bible translation for Acs 21:21,25

However you wish to translate the greek - it is clear that two groups of believers in Christ are being mentioned - one called Jews and the other Gentile - or whatever name you wish to use there for the same idea in Acts 21.

Again I already responded to this.

Which of those five groups do you suppose that these two groups would best fit?

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Hebrews mentions nothing of YHWH's eternal Law passing away.

See Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 7:19.

Here is what Paul himself says in Romans 7:
(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

A half truth is an untruth, so "the rest of the story?"

But it is not able to make righteous those who sin by breaking it, nor can it give the power necessary to fulfill its demands ("the law made nothing perfect"--Hebrews 7:19), therefore,
"all who rely on observing the law are under a curse (death)." (Galatians 3:10)

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,
(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.
Paul trumps Clarke

Indeed! And not only Clarke.

More importantly, here is what Yahshua has to say on this subject:
(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.
Yahshua trumps Paul; but that's OK. They're in agreement.
Clarke's commentary fails the Deuteronomy 13 test.

And the NT test?. . .which it passes with flying colors?

Using poor hermeneutics to set Scripture against itself?. . .context, context, context.

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
YHWH tells us the characteristics of this Ruach (Spirit).
(CLV) Ezk 36:26: I will give you a new heart, And a new spirit will I bestow within you, And I will take away the heart of stone from your flesh, And I will give you a heart of flesh.
(CLV) Ezk 36:27: My spirit shall I bestow within you, And I will make it that you shall walk in My statutes and observe My ordinances, And you will obey them.

Does that include Romans 13:8-10?

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
I already responded to this assertion.
I would encourage you to read over this extensive study that I have started on this subject:
YHWH's Table (Part 1)
I'm convinced that neither James nor Paul were not rebelling against their own teachings.

I'm convinced of the whole counsel of Paul which does not set Scripture against itself.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
See Hebrews 7:12, Hebrews 7:19.

Yes, there was a transference of the Kohen Gadol, of course there would be a transference of Torah concerning that position.

As far as the law making nothing perfect is concerned. It never did. However, YHWH still commands it.

No, it not the law that makes us perfect. However, the Law is perfect.

Psalm 19

Complete Jewish Bible

8 (7) The Torah of Adonai is perfect,
restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure,
making wise the thoughtless.

James 1:25

Complete Jewish Bible

25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.

The author of Hebrews is not contradicting Yahshua himself. If you believe that he is; then don't listen to him. Follow Messiah.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

I hope this helps.

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
James specifically mentioned customs.

(CLV) Ac 21:21
Now they were instructed concerning you that you teach all the Jews among the nations apostasy from Moses, telling them not to be circumcising their children, nor yet to be walking in the customs.

Indeed he did!. . .which poor hermeneutic does not refute my statement. . .context, context, context.

HARK! · Jan 2, 2022

Clare73 said:
Does that include Romans 13:8-10?

Of course. I find it to be unfortunate that Paul didn't include the foremost precept in this list, the Shema.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (CLV)

4 Hear, Israel! Yahweh is our Elohim; Yahweh the only One. 5 So you will love Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity. 6 These words which I am instructing you today will come to be in your heart. 7 Repeat them to your sons, and speak of them when you sit in your house, when you walk on the road, when you lie down and when you arise. 8 Tie them for a sign on your hand, and they will come to be for the brow bands between your eyes;" 9 Write them on the jambs of your house and on your gates.

Matthew 22:36-38, King James Version (KJV)
36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment.

שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל יהוה אֱלֹהֵינוּ יהוה אֶחָד - Sh'ma Yisra'el YHWH Eloheinu YHWH Ehad

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

Clare73 · Jan 2, 2022

HARK! said:
Yes, there was a transference of the Kohen Gadol, of course there would be a transference of Torah concerning that position.
As far as the law making nothing perfect is concerned. It never did. However, YHWH still commands it.
No, it not the law that makes us perfect. However, the Law is perfect.

And the Spirit does make us righteous.
Now you're getting it.

So why would we be under the Spirit and not the law?

Psalm 19

Complete Jewish Bible

8 (7) The Torah of Adonai is perfect,
restoring the inner person.
The instruction of Adonai is sure,
making wise the thoughtless.

James 1:25

Complete Jewish Bible

25 But if a person looks closely into the perfect Torah, which gives freedom, and continues, becoming not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work it requires, then he will be blessed in what he does.

The author of Hebrews is not contradicting Yahshua himself. If you believe that he is; then don't listen to him. Follow Messiah.

(CLV) Lk 16:17
Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of the law to fall.

I hope this helps.

Which Law Paul?

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