Jesus says I and the Father are one yet we have John 14:28

A_Thinker said:

Per Paul (Philippians 4), in His earthly ministry, Jesus had given up His Goldly advantages ... to live as the second Adam. Because of this ... at the time in which He spoke ... the Father was greater.

Ephesians 2

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

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It is important not to misunderstand, Jesus gave up nothing, He retained all the attributes He had prior to His incarnation, He simply did not use them when He did not need them, much like when your wrestle with your child you do not use all of your strength, you do not give up your strength, you simply do not use it all.

disciple Clint said:

It is important not to misunderstand, Jesus gave up nothing, He retained all the attributes He had prior to His incarnation, He simply did not use them when He did not need them, much like when your wrestle with your child you do not use all of your strength, you do not give up your strength, you simply do not use it all.

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I wavered over whether this was worth disputing to me, ... but you might consider that Jesus does speak of "recovering" the glory He once had with His Father in John 17 ...

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

A_Thinker said:

I wavered over whether this was worth disputing to me, ... but you might consider that Jesus does speak of "recovering" the glory He once had with His Father in John 17 ...

1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

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The High Priestly Prayer of Jesus (John 17)

THE INTERCESSORY PRAYER.

The petition not only reveals the conscious divinity of the Son, but also His willing acceptance of the Cross; for the glorifying sought is that reached through death, resurrection, and ascension, and that introductory clause, ‘the hour is come,’ points to the impending sufferings as the first step in the answer to the petition. The Crucifixion is always thus treated in this Gospel, as being both the lowest humiliation and the ‘lifting up’ of the Son; and here

The purpose of the petition is to be noted; namely, the Son’s glorifying of the Father. No taint of selfishness corrupted His prayer. Not for Himself, but for men, did He desire His glory. He sought return to that serene and lofty seat, and the elevation of His limited manhood to the throne, not because He was wearied of earth or impatient of weakness, sorrows, or limitations, but that He might more fully manifest by that Glory, the Father’s name.

John 17:1 Commentaries: Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

ReluctantTheologian said:

Do you have a Bible verse reference with the explicit claim that Jesus is equal to the Father?

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Do we have a Bible verse reference with the explicit claim that God is Triune?

The verses you mention (1 John 4:9-11) seem to carefully distinguish between GOD and Jesus. These verses do not use 'the Father' qualifier with the word 'God', causing these verses to hint at inequality rather than equality:

1 John 4:9-10

In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.​

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Jesus explicitly claims the Father is greater than him, Paul explicitly tells us that GOD is the head of Christ; therefore (indirectly) concluding that Jesus is equal to GOD the Father based on theological constructs from hundreds of years after Jesus' time would seem rather risky to me - this position simply violates too many Bible verses (see my post Jesus says I and the Father are one yet we have John 14:28 above).

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Are you saying that Jesus is not God? Are you saying that God is not equal to himself?
Are you denying the Trinity?

Also observe how both the Nicene Creed (325 CE) and the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed (381 CE) start with this opening line:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible."

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Now that you mention it, we do have more than "theological constructs from hundreds of years after Jesus' time," we have the NT word of God which presents Jesus as the God (YHWH) of the OT in all the following verses which refer to Jesus:

Matthew 3:3 (Isaiah 40:3) - "Prepare the way for YHWH."
Romans 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - "Everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."
Hebrews 1:6 (Deuteronomy 32:43) - "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, and let al the angels worship him (YHWH)",
Luke 1:67-68, Luke 1:76 - John the Baptist will prepare the way for the Lord (which always meant YHWH in Israel).
Luke 1:41-43 - Mary is the mother of Elizabeth's YHWH.
John 1:3, 10; Colossians 1:16-17; Hebrews 1:2b, Hebrews 1:10 (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 44:24; Jeremiah 10:16) - Elohim created the heavens and earth, YHWH alone created all things outside himself. Jesus likewise made the universe, brought all things into being, created all things, including angels, holds them in existence by his power; i.e., Jesus is God.

See the following NT texts referring to Jesus in light of the corresponding OT texts equating him to YHWH:
Ephesians 4:8-9 (Psalms 68:18),
John 19:37 (Zechariah 12:10),
Luke 4:18-21 (Isaiah 61:1, 8).

And then there's Revelation:
Revelation 1:12-18 (Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 48:12) - Jesus in Revelation is the the First and the Last (the YHWH of Isaiah).
Revelation 21:6, Revelation 22:12-13 - Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, who is the Lord God of Revelation 1:8.
Revelation 20:11-13 - the one on the throne is Jesus (John 5:22, John 5:27, John 9:39), who is God on the throne in Revelation 21:7.

Then there is
1) Jesus' name is Immanuel (Isaiah 7:4), which is "God with us;"
2) Jesus said he was God (John 12:44, 45, John 14:7, 9, John 16:15, John 17:10),
the way, the truth and the life, the only way to the Father (John 14:6),
to be honored as the Father is honored (John 5:22),
declaring that what God is, he is, thereby making himself equal with the Father (John 5:18b, John 10:33).
The Jews understood exactly what he was saying, which is why they murdered him (Acts 7:52).
3) Jesus prescribing (John 5:23, John 14:1) and accepting worship of himself as God (as prophesied in Daniel 7:13-14), even from angels - Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 2:2, 11, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38, John 20:28-29, with no reprimand as we see in Matthew 4:10; Revelation 22:9; Acts 10:25-26, 14:14-15;
4) John says he is the eternal Word who is God, made flesh (John 1:1, John 1:14), by whom all things were made, in whom is life, and who is the light of men (John 1:3-5).
5) Paul, as well as Peter and the penman of Hebrews, say Jesus is God (Romans 9:5; Philippians 2:6; Colossians 1:15-16, 2:9; 2 Corinthians 4:4-6; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:3; 8-9; 2 Peter 1:1).
6) The NT presents Jesus as having the attributes of God; e.g.,
eternal existence (John 1:1-2, 1 John 1:2; Revelation 1:8, Revelation 22:13);
source of eternal life (John 1:4, 5:26, 14:6; 1 John 1:1-2, 5:11-12, 20; Revelation 1:18);
forgiving sin (Mark 2:7-11, Colossians 3:13; Acts 5:31).

Should I continue, or is this enough evidence that the NT does present Jesus as God. . .and God cannot be but equal to himself.
Better understanding of the NT would be beneficial.

ReluctantTheologian said:

It's correct you may be bewildered by Jesus' statement given the common understanding of the 6th century 'Athanasian' Creed (of which the 'Shield of Faith' diagram given by myst33 is a good illustration) in which all 'persons' in the Trinity are equal in rank, etc..

When asking however: what to make of this? My advise would be to just for a moment

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disregard church history AFTER the NT period, and analyse closely what we find in the NT texts on this subject (not because church history isn't valuable, but because we the Biblical texts should be the pillar of our theology):

• Jesus: the Father is greater than I (John 14:28)
• GOD is the head of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3)
  
• Jesus always does the will of GOD the Father (Luke 22:42, John 4:34, John 5:19, John 5:30, John 6:38)
  
• Jesus is seated at the right hand of GOD (the text never says 'God the Father') (Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55, Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 3:1, Hebrews 1:3, Hebrews 8:1, Hebrews 10:12, Hebrews 12:2, 1 Peter 3:22)
  
• GOD the Father is ALSO the God of Jesus (John 20:17, Matthew 27:46, 2 Corinthians 11:31, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:17, Hebrews 10:5-7 (Psalm 40:6-8), 1 Peter 1:3)
  
• Jesus is the way to the Father (which would not make sense if the Father is not greater than Jesus) (John 14:6, Ephesians 2:18)
  
• Jesus is the mediator between mankind and GOD (1 Timothy 2:5)
• Jesus as priest offered a sacrifice to God (Hebrews 10:12)
  
• Jesus (among others) is the Son of Man; GOD however is not a man (Numbers 23:19)
• Jesus was GIVEN all power in heaven and on earth (by GOD the Father presumably) (Matthew 28:18-20)
  
• Jesus is the image of GOD (John 14:9, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:3)

Please don't just read those bullets, but actually read ALL those text references in their context; it's all awfully consistent with Jesus' statement that the Father is greater than him, isn't it?

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Having demonstrated that the NT presents Jesus as God in post #24, above, we are looking at two natures in Jesus, the human and the divine.
The Scriptures you present above refer to the man Jesus, not to the God Jesus, and do not conflict with the NT presentation of Jesus as God, in post #24 above.

So for the rest of the story, in reference to his divinity, which makes him God, who is equal to himself, see post #24, above.

The Son always points back to His Father, but this is not because He is less than His Father (He is truly God, even as the Father is God); but because the Son always gives Himself away in love to His Father. Even as the Father always gives Himself away to His Son, see in the Epistle to the Hebrews where we read the Father saying to His Son, "Your Throne O God is forever and ever" or where in Jesus' baptism and His Transfiguration the Father says, "This is My Beloved Son" and "Listen to Him!".

In the same way the Holy Spirit points back to Christ, even as Christ points to the Spirit.

This mutual giving of the Three Persons to One Another, in love, is a major Triadological (theology pertaining to the Trinity) concept.

Furthermore, while Subordinatism is to be rejected, we also confess the "Monarchy of the Father", a term referring to the Father as the Source or Fount of Divinity. Namely that the Essence of the Son and the Spirit (Deity) is of the Father. Hence the Son is only-begotten of the Father, and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. Thus the Son is God of the Father, but the Father is not God of the Son--He is God of Himself.

In the Nicene Creed we confess Jesus, the Son of the Father, is "Begotten, not made". The Son is "begotten of the Father before all ages" (or translated into more modern English as "eternally begotten of the Father"). That means that there was no time when the Father gave birth to the Son, rather the generation of the Son is eternal. The Son is Co-Eternal with the Father. Because the Son, as only-begotten of the Father, is "God of God", in fact He is "of the Same Being/Essence as the Father", He is Con-Substantial, Con-Essential with the Father. He is God, even as the Father is God.

It boils down to this: Jesus says the Father is greater than Him because Jesus always points to His Father, and the Son always speaks of the Father as His Source, His Origin. This, however, does not deny the full Deity of the Son. Because the doctrine of the Trinity, in which Christ's Deity is fully confessed and believed, recognizes that the Son is both Begotten and Uncreated. Begotten of the Father, and so always glorifies His Father; He is Uncreated God, and therefore equal and of the same Being as the Father. He is God of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Richard.20.12 said:

From John 14:28: I go unto the Father: because the Father is greater than I.
How do you interpret this? It was just pointed out to me today and I was surprised. What do you think?

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The same concept correctly exists within the body of Christ...we are all one and equal, yet the male is over the woman. The concept of equal is different than is our understanding.

throughfireytrial said:

The same concept correctly exists within the body of Christ...we are all one and equal, yet the male is over the woman. The concept of equal is different than is our understanding.

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Different functions/roles/stations do not make individuals unequal.

throughfireytrial said:

The same concept correctly exists within the body of Christ...we are all one and equal, yet the male is over the woman. The concept of equal is different than is our understanding.

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The problem with this is that this effectively teaches Subordinatism. That the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father.

Male is not "over" woman. The two are called to mutual self-offering of one another, "Submit to one another in reverence to Christ". Wives to their husbands, husbands to their wives. It is mutual, reciprocal. It is not hierarchal or subordinal.

The Father eternally gives Himself away to His Son, and the Son eternally gives Himself away to His Father. We find both the Father and the Son loving one another with humility. The Father humbly gives His Son, calls His Son "My Beloved" and says we should listen to Him. The Father also says concerning His Beloved Son, "Your Throne O God is forever and ever". The Son, likewise humbly surrenders Himself to the Father, and walks in faithful obedience as the Man of God's own choosing, as the Second Adam, even emptying Himself, pouring Himself out in humility, even to the point of death on the cross. And so God the Father has exalted His Son, "He has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ" and this One exalted, seated at the right hand of the Father as King Messiah, the Lord of lords. The Son of Man who has received power, dominion, and everlasting kingdom.

The Son is not subordinate to the Father (that would be heresy). The Son however does love His Father, and so humbles Himself. But this is not unilateral; it is the love and humility of God from all eternity. The perfect love of the Three Divine Persons.

We are called to mutual submission to one another out of reverent love for our Lord Jesus. And this call to action should reflect the beauty and love of the Holy Trinity; as we give ourselves away for free, even as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit give Themselves away freely One to Another. Because in this mutual self-giving there is no struggle for power, there is no hierarchy of relationships. We are humans, we are humans created in the image and likeness of God, created for one another, born to live with one another, and to serve one another in kindness and love.

As a man, a male human being, I have no more power or authority than any woman. Neither does a woman have any less power or authority than me. Because there shouldn't even be an issue of power or authority at all, because that isn't how Christ wills His Church to function and behave. It isn't about power or authority, it is about love, servanthood, sacrifice, and worship. AKA, being a disciple of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

The problem with this is that this effectively teaches Subordinatism. That the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father.

Male is not "over" woman. The two are called to mutual self-offering of one another, "Submit to one another in reverence to Christ". Wives to their husbands, husbands to their wives. It is mutual, reciprocal. It is not hierarchal or subordinal.

The Father eternally gives Himself away to His Son, and the Son eternally gives Himself away to His Father. We find both the Father and the Son loving one another with humility. The Father humbly gives His Son, calls His Son "My Beloved" and says we should listen to Him. The Father also says concerning His Beloved Son, "Your Throne O God is forever and ever". The Son, likewise humbly surrenders Himself to the Father, and walks in faithful obedience as the Man of God's own choosing, as the Second Adam, even emptying Himself, pouring Himself out in humility, even to the point of death on the cross. And so God the Father has exalted His Son, "He has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ" and this One exalted, seated at the right hand of the Father as King Messiah, the Lord of lords. The Son of Man who has received power, dominion, and everlasting kingdom.

The Son is not subordinate to the Father (that would be heresy). The Son however does love His Father, and so humbles Himself. But this is not unilateral; it is the love and humility of God from all eternity. The perfect love of the Three Divine Persons.

We are called to mutual submission to one another out of reverent love for our Lord Jesus. And this call to action should reflect the beauty and love of the Holy Trinity; as we give ourselves away for free, even as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit give Themselves away freely One to Another. Because in this mutual self-giving there is no struggle for power, there is no hierarchy of relationships. We are humans, we are humans created in the image and likeness of God, created for one another, born to live with one another, and to serve one another in kindness and love.

As a man, a male human being, I have no more power or authority than any woman. Neither does a woman have any less power or authority than me. Because there shouldn't even be an issue of power or authority at all, because that isn't how Christ wills His Church to function and behave. It isn't about power or authority, it is about love, servanthood, sacrifice, and worship. AKA, being a disciple of Jesus.

-CryptoLutheran

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I have not as of yet read this response, but was simply coming on line to clarify my statement. I believe that Jesus is spaeking from His state of humiliation when He makes the statement of the OP quote.

ViaCrucis said:

The problem with this is that this effectively teaches Subordinatism. That the Son is eternally subordinate to the Father.

Male is not "over" woman.

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In marriage, the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body. (Ephesians 5:23)
Christ is "over" the Church, the submission to Christ by the church is not mutual, reciprocal, it is hierarchial and subordinal.

The two are called to mutual self-offering of one another, "Submit to one another in reverence to Christ". Wives to their husbands, husbands to their wives. It is mutual, reciprocal. It is not hierarchal or subordinal.

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The two are not called mutual in the NT.

You have set Ephesians 5:21 against Ephesians 5:23. The NT does not contradict its own teaching.
And you have set them one against another by an addition to the text (Ephesians 5:21), which does not state submission of "husbands to wives."
Ephesians 5:21 is addressed to the Christian assembly, not to marriage.
Ephesians 5:23 is addressed to marriage, not to the Christian assembly.
If both were the same, there wouldn't be two different texts, for Ephesians 5:21 would be sufficient, but it isn't.

Now back to the Trinity.

The Father eternally gives Himself away to His Son, and the Son eternally gives Himself away to His Father. We find both the Father and the Son loving one another with humility. The Father humbly gives His Son, calls His Son "My Beloved" and says we should listen to Him. The Father also says concerning His Beloved Son, "Your Throne O God is forever and ever". The Son, likewise humbly surrenders Himself to the Father, and walks in faithful obedience as the Man of God's own choosing, as the Second Adam, even emptying Himself, pouring Himself out in humility, even to the point of death on the cross. And so God the Father has exalted His Son, "He has made this Jesus whom you crucified both Lord and Christ" and this One exalted, seated at the right hand of the Father as King Messiah, the Lord of lords. The Son of Man who has received power, dominion, and everlasting kingdom.

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The Son is not subordinate to the Father (that would be heresy). The Son however does love His Father, and so humbles Himself. But this is not unilateral; it is the love and humility of God from all eternity. The perfect love of the Three Divine Persons.

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The Son is subject to the Father, for the Son is sent by the Father in the Father's name (John 5:23; John 5:36, John 5:43).

The Spirit is subject to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).

The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as by the Father (John 15:26, John 16:7, John 14:26)

Three distinct and separate persons, and one God--the Son doing the will of the Father, and the Spirit doing the will of the Father and the Son.

We are called to mutual submission to one another out of reverent love for our Lord Jesus.

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And in marriage we are called to mutual love and respect (Ephesians 5:33), but not to mutual submission.

And this call to action should reflect the beauty and love of the Holy Trinity; as we give ourselves away for free, even as the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit give Themselves away freely One to Another. Because in this mutual self-giving there is no struggle for power, there is no hierarchy of relationships.

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There is in the NT--in marriage (Ephesians 5:23), in the family (Ephesians 6:1)l and in leadership of the Christian assembly.

We are humans, we are humans created in the image and likeness of God, created for one another, born to live with one another, and to serve one another in kindness and love.
As a man, a male human being, I have no more power or authority than any woman. Neither does a woman have any less power or authority than me. Because there shouldn't even be an issue of power or authority at all, because that isn't how Christ wills His Church to function and behave. It isn't about power or authority, it is about love, servanthood, sacrifice, and worship. AKA, being a disciple of Jesus.

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None of which excludes different stations, functions, and roles.

Let's not elevate man's (modern, pc) wisdom over God's wisdom in the word of God above.

Clare73 said:

In marriage, the husband is head of the wife as Christ is head of the church, his body. (Ephesians 5:23)
Christ is "over" the Church, the submission to Christ by the church is not mutual, reciprocal, it is hierarchial and subordinal.
The two are not called mutual in the NT.

You have set Ephesians 5:21 against Ephesians 5:23. The NT does not contradict its own teaching.
And you have set them one against another by an addition to the text (Ephesians 5:21), which does not state submission of "husbands to wives."
Ephesians 5:21 is addressed to the Christian assembly, not to marriage.
Ephesians 5:23 is addressed to marriage, not the Christian assembly.
If both were the same, there wouldn't be two different texts, for Ephesians 5:21 would be sufficient, but it isn't.

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What follows after verse 21 is couched in the general admonition in verse 21, thus the marital relationship in verses 22-33, and into chapter 6 concerning parental/filial relationships (verses 1-4), and concerning slave/master relationships (verses 5-9).

The entirety of this speaks to the mutual submission mentioned in verse 21. The Apostle is not establishing codified social norms, but rather speaking to a radically different way of relating to one another as Christ's people.

Now back to the Trinity.

The Son is subject to the Father, for the Son is sent by the Father in the Father's name (John 5:23; John 5:36, John 5:43).

The Spirit is subject to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).

The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as by the Father (John 15:26, John 16:7, John 14:26)

Three distinct and separate persons, and one God--the Son doing the will of the Father, and the Spirit doing the will of the Father and the Son.
And in marriage we are called to mutual love and respect (Ephesians 5:33), but not to mutual submission.

There is in the NT--in marriage (Ephesians 5:23), in the family (Ephesians 6:1)l and in leadership of the Christian assembly.

None of which excludes different stations, functions, and roles.
Let's not elevate man's (modern) wisdom over God's wisdom in the word of God above.

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That's still Subordinatism, which is heretical.

And, yes, Christ by laying down His life for His Church is Christ submitting to us, in love. It is an act of humility, of lowliness: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but rather to serve, and to lay down His life as a ransom for many."

This doesn't mean that we are on the same footing as Christ--He is Lord, we are not. But it does mean this: Christ calls us friends and brothers/sisters. And He says He lays down His life for His friends.

I completely agree, we should not elevate man's modern wisdom over God's wisdom in His word, and as revealed in the very Person of our Lord Jesus Christ. The world's wisdom is focused on power and glory, but the wisdom of God is the foolishness of the world. It is the message of the Cross that we preach, a stumbling block for Jews and folly to the Greeks.

The language of domination and power is the language of this world, it is not the way of God. God's way, as revealed through His only-begotten and Incarnate Son, is that He lays Himself down for the world. And that fundamentally changes EVERYTHING. It should turn our entire way of looking at everything completely upside-down.

Who is the greatest in the kingdom? It's the slave.
Who is entering the kingdom ahead of the "righteous"? It's the prostitute and the tax collector.

Jesus' upside-down kingdom renders every worldly principality, power, dominion, and authority on its head. He has made a mockery of the principalities and the powers, rendered them impotent.

The way of our Lord Jesus--the way for His Church--is the Way of the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

What follows after verse 21 is couched in the general admonition in verse 21, thus the marital relationship in verses 22-33, and into chapter 6 concerning parental/filial relationships (verses 1-4), and concerning slave/master relationships (verses 5-9).

The entirety of this speaks to the mutual submission mentioned in verse 21. The Apostle is not establishing codified social norms, but rather speaking to a radically different way of relating to one another as Christ's people.



That's still Subordinatism, which is heretical.

And, yes, Christ by laying down His life for His Church is Christ submitting to us, in love. It is an act of humility, of lowliness: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but rather to serve, and to lay down His life as a ransom for many."

This doesn't mean that we are on the same footing as Christ--He is Lord, we are not. But it does mean this: Christ calls us friends and brothers/sisters. And He says He lays down His life for His friends.

I completely agree, we should not elevate man's modern wisdom over God's wisdom in His word, and as revealed in the very Person of our Lord Jesus Christ. The world's wisdom is focused on power and glory, but the wisdom of God is the foolishness of the world. It is the message of the Cross that we preach, a stumbling block for Jews and folly to the Greeks.

The language of domination and power is the language of this world, it is not the way of God. God's way, as revealed through His only-begotten and Incarnate Son, is that He lays Himself down for the world. And that fundamentally changes EVERYTHING. It should turn our entire way of looking at everything completely upside-down.

Who is the greatest in the kingdom? It's the slave.
Who is entering the kingdom ahead of the "righteous"? It's the prostitute and the tax collector.

Jesus' upside-down kingdom renders every worldly principality, power, dominion, and authority on its head. He has made a mockery of the principalities and the powers, rendered them impotent.

The way of our Lord Jesus--the way for His Church--is the Way of the Cross.

-CryptoLutheran

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The greatest shall be the least and the least shall be the greatest...yes, and mutual love and service to one another is part of the New Way...the way of love...the way of the Spirit.
God does lay down a hierarchy within His church however and He also lays down some rules to govern the church...which OF COURSE is to be carried out in love and concern for the spiritual life of each soul...that should be understood!
All are not apostles, evangelists, teachers...etc. for instance...a good deal of submission is in order to those who are placed over the sheep...see also here, Hebrews 13:17, they are accountable for us.
Similarly, the husband is placed over the wife and woman is under man. We see another demonstration of this submission of women within the church where woman are to refrain from speaking...reason is given us within the text...it was the woman who was tempted first and became a sinner...she is more susceptible to temptation and spiritual men are a guard against this.
Man is over the woman, Scripture has it, because woman was made for man, not man for the woman. We are to live in mutual love and respect which here entails a submission to husband, but first to God as is always the case with each believer.

ViaCrucis said:

What follows after verse 21 is couched in the general admonition in verse 21, thus the marital relationship in verses 22-33, and into chapter 6 concerning parental/filial relationships (verses 1-4), and concerning slave/master relationships (verses 5-9).

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Precisely. . .and the issue therein is submission.
Where are parents told to submit to their children, where are masters told to submit to their slaves?
Crickets. . .just as in submission of husband to wife.

The entirety of this speaks to the mutual submission mentioned in verse 21.

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Are you serious?. . .There is no mutual submission whatsoever in Ephesians 5:22-6:9.

You would have us believe that parents are to submit to their children, and masters are to submit to their slaves?
Are you even reading the text?

The Apostle is not establishing codified social norms, but rather speaking to a radically different way of relating to one another as Christ's people.
That's still Subordinatism, which is heretical.

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Except this is very orthodox.

And, yes, Christ by laying down His life for His Church is Christ submitting to us, in love. It is an act of humility, of lowliness: "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but rather to serve, and to lay down His life as a ransom for many."

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That is not submission to us, that is submission to God. (Romans 3:25)

This doesn't mean that we are on the same footing as Christ--He is Lord, we are not. But it does mean this: Christ calls us friends and brothers/sisters. And He says He lays down His life for His friends.

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That doesn't translate "submission" to them. . .we are his adopted siblings.

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .and the issue therein is submission.
Where are parents told to submit to their children, and masters told to submit to their slaves?
Crickets. . .just as in submission of husband to wife.

Hardly. . .there is no mutual submission whatsoever in Ephesians 5:22-6:9.

You would have us believe that parents are to submit to their children, and master are to submit to their slaves.
Are you even reading the text

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If we're playing the "have you even read" game, have you read it? See Ephesians 6:9.

The Apostle is not establishing codified social norms, but rather speaking to a radically different way of relating to one another as Christ's people

Except this is very orthodox.

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It's not. Again, Subordinatism is heretical. Merely asserting that it is orthodox doesn't make it so. The Son is not inferior to the Father in any way.

THat is not submission to us, that is submission to God. (Romans 3:25)

This doesn't mean that we are on the same footing as Christ--He is Lord, we are not. But it does mean this: Christ calls us friends and brothers/sisters. And He says He lays down His life for His friends.

That doesn't translate "submission" to them. . .we are his adopted siblings.

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We are fundamentally operating from very different places of what "submission" entails. And I don't think continued debate will resolve that.

Submission is not about people on top and some people at the bottom. But about loving one another and putting others ahead of ourselves. Refusing to assert ourselves over and against others, and instead to walk together.

The whole point is that the Church doesn't do things the way the world does things. The world functions with certain people at the top, and others at the bottom. The world's way is to be at the top, God's way is to be at the bottom.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

If we're playing the "have you even read" game, have you read it? See Ephesians 6:9.

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There's no "submission" in my Bible in Ephesians 6:9.

It's not. Again, Subordinatism is heretical. Merely asserting that it is orthodox doesn't make it so.
The Son is not inferior to the Father in any way.

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Agreed.

We are fundamentally operating from very different places of what "submission" entails. And I don't think continued debate will resolve that.

Submission is not about people on top and some people at the bottom.
But about loving one another and putting others ahead of ourselves. Refusing to assert ourselves over and against others, and instead to walk together.

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Not in my dictionary.
Not in my submission to God.
Submission is about authority. . .which is about hierarchy. . .which has nothing to do with equality.

The whole point is that the Church doesn't do things the way the world does things.

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That is your circular point. . .that is not the NT point.

The world functions with certain people at the top, and others at the bottom. The world's way is to be at the top, God's way is to be at the bottom.

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How can we be at bottom if none are asserting themselves over others and all are walking together?
We need some hierarchy to "be at the bottom" of, if we are going to do it God's way.

Clare73 said:

Precisely. . .and the issue therein is submission.
Where are parents told to submit to their children, and masters told to submit to their slaves?
Crickets. . .just as in submission of husband to wife.

Hardly. . .there is no mutual submission whatsoever in Ephesians 5:22-6:9.

You would have us believe that parents are to submit to their children, and master are to submit to their slaves.
Are you even reading the text

The Apostle is not establishing codified social norms, but rather speaking to a radically different way of relating to one another as Christ's people.

Click to expand...

That's still Subordinatism, which is heretical.[/quote]
Except this is very orthodox.

THat is not submission to us, that is submission to God. (Romans 3:25)

This doesn't mean that we are on the same footing as Christ--He is Lord, we are not. But it does mean this: Christ calls us friends and brothers/sisters. And He says He lays down His life for His friends.[/quote]That doesn't translate "submission" to them. . .we are his adopted siblings.[/QUOTE]

So we are not "in Christ"? Somehow we're his "adopted siblings"?

Romans 6:11, "So you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Romans 8:1, => "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." <=

Romans 8:11, "Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you."

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 12:5, "so we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another."

Romans 15:17, "So I boast in Christ Jesus about the things that pertain to God."

Romans 16:3, "Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,"

Romans 16:7, "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me."

Romans 16:9-10, "Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my good friend Stachys. Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus."

1 Corinthians 1:4, "I always thank my God for you because of the grace of God that was given to you in Christ Jesus."

1 Corinthians 4:15, "For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

1 Corinthians 12:12, "For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ."

1 Corinthians 15:22, "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

1 Corinthians 15:24, "My love be with all of you in Christ Jesus."

2 Corinthians 1:21, "But it is God who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anointed us"

2 Corinthians 2:14, "But thanks be to God who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and who makes known through us the fragrance that consists of the knowledge of him in every place."

2 Corinthians 5:17, "So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!"

Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:26, "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith."

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 1:4, "For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love."

Ephesians 1:11, "In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will"

Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his creative work, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we can do them."

Ephesians 2:13, "But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."


... and more, but I'm tired of posting one verse after another to prove that believers are IN CHRIST...

(All quotations from the NET Bible, v 2.1)

pescador said:

.

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That's still Subordinatism, which is heretical.

Except this is very orthodox.

That is not submission to us, that is submission to God. (Romans 3:25)

This doesn't mean that we are on the same footing as Christ--He is Lord, we are not. But it does mean this: Christ calls us friends and brothers/sisters. And He says He lays down His life for His friends.

That doesn't translate "submission" to them. . .we are his adopted siblings.

So we are not "in Christ"? Somehow we're his "adopted siblings"?

Click to expand...

See Romans 8:29, we are both.

Romans 6:11, "So you too consider yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Romans 8:1, => "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." <=

Romans 8:11, "Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you."

Romans 8:38-39, "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor heavenly rulers, nor things that are present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Romans 12:5, "so we who are many are one body in Christ, and individually we are members who belong to one another."

Romans 15:17, "So I boast in Christ Jesus about the things that pertain to God."

Romans 16:3, "Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus,"

Romans 16:7, "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my compatriots and my fellow prisoners. They are well known to the apostles, and they were in Christ before me."

Romans 16:9-10, "Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and my good friend Stachys. Greet Apelles, who is approved in Christ. Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus."

1 Corinthians 1:4, "I always thank my God for you because of the grace of God that was given to you in Christ Jesus."

1 Corinthians 4:15, "For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, because I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel."

1 Corinthians 12:12, "For just as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body—though many—are one body, so too is Christ."

1 Corinthians 15:22, "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive."

1 Corinthians 15:24, "My love be with all of you in Christ Jesus."

2 Corinthians 1:21, "But it is God who establishes us together with you in Christ and who anointed us"

2 Corinthians 2:14, "But thanks be to God who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and who makes known through us the fragrance that consists of the knowledge of him in every place."

2 Corinthians 5:17, "So then, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; what is old has passed away—look, what is new has come!"

Galatians 2:20, "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. So the life I now live in the body, I live because of the faithfulness of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:26, "For in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God through faith."

Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female—for all of you are one in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 1:4, "For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love."

Ephesians 1:11, "In Christ we too have been claimed as God’s own possession, since we were predestined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will"

Ephesians 2:10, "For we are his creative work, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we can do them."

Ephesians 2:13, "But now in Christ Jesus you who used to be far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ."


... and more, but I'm tired of posting one verse after another to prove that believers are IN CHRIST...

(All quotations from the NET Bible, v 2.1)

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Good job!

throughfireytrial said:

The same concept correctly exists within the body of Christ...we are all one and equal, yet the male is over the woman. The concept of equal is different than is our understanding.

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It is nature and rank.

I am glad Paul is not preaching and someone falls asleep thus falling out a window.