The hour is coming and now is....

Bob_1000 said:

Are you taking into account that the Old Testament believers in Christ were still dead in their sins and trespasses until they heard the voice of the Son of God in Abraham's bosom?

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Speaking of all the dead OT believers before the crucifixion, Christ once said of them that "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." The OT saints were certainly not "dead in their sins". They were the ones who composed the Hebrews "Hall of faith".

3 Resurrections said:

I believe scripture makes it abundantly clear that nobody gets off this planet alive without dying first. We are all appointed to die the one time (Hebrews 9:27-28), after which the dead bodies of the believers will be altered in a resurrection and judgment event. The corruptible bodies of the believers are then made new into an incorruptible condition having immortality.

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What should we take the following to mean then, what I have underlined below?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Verse 14 is clearly meaning the dead and that that verse says God will bring them with Him when He comes. What I have underlined, how does God bring them with Him as well if they are not even meaning anyone in verse 14? These that I have underlined, they meet Christ and those in verse 14, in the air, and that the text says they are still alive at the time, not already dead instead. Therefore, it looks like to me they literally get off this planet without having to die first, which is the opposite of what you proposed.

Bob_1000 said:

The first man Adam was made a LIVING SOUL and then placed in a corrupt earthly body.

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This smacks of Gnostic beliefs. The physical body of the newly-created Adam was not a corrupt thing, since the soil itself which Adam's body came from was not corrupt. God created everything "good and very good", including the dirt.

DavidPT said:

These that I have underlined, they meet Christ and those in verse 4, in the air, and that the text says they are still alive at the time, not already dead instead.

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DavidPT, those "alive and remaining" saints are those who had been MADE ALIVE by a bodily resurrection process, such as all those like the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, Lazarus, Dorcas, Jairus' daughter, the widow's son, etc.,etc.. They had remained on the earth to serve in the early church as gifts given by the ascended Christ - as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to edify the body of Christ. The word "remain" is "perileipomenoi", which indicates a reserved status - a sealed status (like the sealed,144,000 First-fruits, the Matthew 27 saints) for those who were abiding in a place for a certain extended length of time.

3 Resurrections said:

This smacks of Gnostic beliefs. The physical body of the newly-created Adam was not a corrupt thing, since the soil itself which Adam's body came from was not corrupt. God created everything "good and very good", including the dirt.

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Sometimes corrupt can be meaning as in having a body this is capable of dying. Adam obviously had a body like that, otherwise God would not have said what He did per the following verse.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God had already said this before man has even fallen.

3 Resurrections said:

DavidPT, those "alive and remaining" saints are those who had been MADE ALIVE by a bodily resurrection process, such as all those like the Matthew 27:52-53 saints, Lazarus, Dorcas, Jairus' daughter, the widow's son, etc.,etc.. They had remained on the earth to serve in the early church as gifts given by the ascended Christ - as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to edify the body of Christ. The word "remain" is "perileipomenoi", which indicates a reserved status - a sealed status (like the sealed,144,000 First-fruits, the Matthew 27 saints) for those who were abiding in a place for a certain extended length of time.

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Surely you have to realize what you are proposing makes zero sense to some of the rest of us.

Bob_1000 said:

Well I am understanding correctly lol. I've seen you post that the 1st resurrection is a spiritual resurrection where we are passed from death to life and I agree and that's what 1 Corinthians 15 is telling us.

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No, that is not what 1 Corinthians 15 is telling us. 1 Corinthians 15 is clearly about the resurrection of the body, not the spirit.

What I don't agree with is the "other" resurrection, the resurrection of the dead earthly body.

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1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What else is "sown in corruption", "sown in dishonour", "sown in weakness" and "sown a natural body" except for the current mortal body that we each have? Paul said that body, which dies, will be "raised a spiritual body". How much more clear can it be that he's talking about the resurrection of dead earthly bodies?

Everything in Corinthians 15 is about BARE GRAIN that is planted in something corrupt, dishonorable, and natural.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest (bare grain) is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest (bare grain), thou sowest (bare grain) not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it (bare grain) a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed (seed varieties - black, white, oriental etc) his own body.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (bare grain) is sown in corruption; it (bare grain) is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It (bare grain) is sown in dishonour; it (bare grain) is raised in glory: it (bare grain) is sown in weakness; it (bare grain) is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It (bare grain) is sown a natural body; it (bare grain) is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (bare grain placed inside a corrupt human body); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

In the verses above, which verse isn't talking about bare grain aka the soul?

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All of them. All of that is about the body. That is very clear. I don't know how you're missing something so obvious.

Bob_1000 said:

I think that backs up the point I'm trying to make. Jesus is saying PRESENT TENSE, at a time before the bodies of the Old Testament believers were raised, the dead ARE raised already.

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The OT dead such as righteous Abel, faithful Abraham, etc. were considered "living" because their spirits were "alive according to God in the Spirit" - not yet their dead, fleshly bodies as of that time. Like Job, their living spirits would wait until their "change" came when God called their bodies out of the grave (Job 14:14).

Bob_1000 said:

Well that's theme from Genesis to Revelation, the flesh is weak, corrupt, fallible, sinful, wicked unredeemable. Besides all of that, the lust of the flesh, the lust of eyes and pride of life all come from human SEED aka DNA.

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Of course anything that God created from the beginning was on a lower level than Himself, since the creature is not greater than the Creator. This makes us "weaker", if you will. But as originally created, the bodies of the original couple were not evil entities, any more than the dirt under their feet was evil. Disobedience affected their bodies with death and separation from God, just as exposure to radiation kills its innocent victims. And that disobedience passed down through the generations, as we are all descended from a fallen Adam. However, the cells that compose our bodies are not evil in themselves; they are the victims that suffer destruction by association with fallen Adam.

You would regard these cells that compose our bodies as "unredeemable", but at least Jesus didn't think so. As believers, we are awaiting the "redemption of our bodies" after death as Romans 8 described, to be made incorruptible and immortal, and capable of standing before our Creator face to face.

DavidPT said:

Surely you have to realize what you are proposing makes zero sense to some of the rest of us.

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It perhaps makes no sense to those steeped in the traditional "rapture" doctrine (which needs serious correction). But it is in perfect sync with the rest of scripture - particularly Hebrews 9:27, which states that it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE. None of us escapes this appointment to physical death the one time.

3 Resurrections said:

It perhaps makes no sense to those steeped in the traditional "rapture" doctrine (which needs serious correction). But it is in perfect sync with the rest of scripture - particularly Hebrews 9:27, which states that it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE. None of us escapes this appointment to physical death the one time.

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Unless you are a full Preterist, and I'm not implying you are, this would seem to mean you believe in a future bodily coming of Christ in the end of this age. Do you have any Scriptures you can think of that prove not one single saved person will still be physically alive on earth when Christ returns? In order for you to be correct it requires that not one single saved person can still be physically alive when Christ bodily returns in the end of this age. I'm not meaning Hebrews 9:27, though. I'm meaning other Scripture that might support that.

3 Resurrections said:

It perhaps makes no sense to those steeped in the traditional "rapture" doctrine (which needs serious correction). But it is in perfect sync with the rest of scripture - particularly Hebrews 9:27, which states that it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE. None of us escapes this appointment to physical death the one time.

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You are being too rigid in your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27. Yes, that verse is true of a vast majority of people, but there will be exceptions made when Christ returns in the future. Paul VERY CLEARLY indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 that there will be people who are STILL ALIVE and remain on the earth at that time who will then be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air". NOWHERE does it say that those believers who are ALIVE and remain until the second coming of Christ will die. Instead, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, they will not sleep/die, but instead will be "changed" at the last trumpet and will go from having natural, corruptible and mortal bodies to having spiritual, incorruptible and immortal bodies.

Spiritual Jew said:

You are being too rigid in your interpretation of Hebrews 9:27.

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Perhaps it seems that way, but it is no more rigid than the author of Hebrews 9:27-28 meant to be. When Hebrews 9:27-28 compares humanity's one-time death experience directly to Christ's one-time death experience in this verse, this makes the interpretation extremely precise. Unless you want to claim that Christ can die several times - or never really died physically at all?

DavidPT said:

Unless you are a full Preterist, and I'm not implying you are, this would seem to mean you believe in a future bodily coming of Christ in the end of this age. Do you have any Scriptures you can think of that prove not one single saved person will still be physically alive on earth when Christ returns? In order for you to be correct it requires that not one single saved person can still be physically alive when Christ bodily returns in the end of this age. I'm not meaning Hebrews 9:27, though. I'm meaning other Scripture that might support that.

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I certainly do see scripture teaching another future bodily coming of Christ in the end of the New Covenant Ages. And according to Hebrews 9:27, I don't see anyone surviving God's manifested glory in that coming return - not even the believers.

We are told that no one can look on the face of God while in this mortal life and survive the experience. God is described as a "consuming fire", and Daniel 7:9-10 's vision portrayed God's throne with fire surrounding it, and a constant stream of fire coming out from before Him. This is the manifestation of God's utter purity and glory. To look directly on God's glorious holiness would be similar to us trying to look directly at the noon-day sun. We can't do it without literally ruining our eyesight. God's presence is so much more intense than this. For mankind to encounter God's presence face-to-face while in our natural bodies - we could not possibly live through this. God told Moses this when he begged to be shown God's glory, but He allowed him a shielded view of His back parts (Exodus 33:18-23). Even so, the face of Moses shone so intently when coming down from the mountain that even this residual reflection of God's glory had to be covered with a veil over Moses' face, or the children of Israel could not look at him either (2 Corinthians 3:7).

When the resurrected Christ was on earth for those 40 days, He presented the disciples with a form that gave them a shielded view of His glory so that the disciples would not be harmed by Him. But in John's visions, that glory of Christ was manifested in its fullness, so that even in a vision, John fell at His feet as dead (Revelation 1:13-17).

When Christ returns in our distant future, I believe He will manifest His glory to the full, resulting in the death of everyone on the planet. It will be only the believers who will be bodily resurrected after that experience. I can't think of a more glorious way to die, and to be immediately resurrected thereafter. I imagine this is how Moses might have died on Mount Nebo. We know that Moses' natural strength had not abated, so it wasn't human infirmity that killed Moses. Perhaps God gave Moses a face-to-face full manifestation of His glory that He had once asked for, and Moses died by that means. We don't know for certain, but it's something to consider.

3 Resurrections said:

Perhaps it seems that way, but it is no more rigid than the author of Hebrews 9:27-28 meant to be. When Hebrews 9:27-28 compares humanity's one-time death experience directly to Christ's one-time death experience in this verse, this makes the interpretation extremely precise. Unless you want to claim that Christ can die several times - or never really died physically at all?

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Again, yes, Hebrews 9:27 is true of a vast majority of people, but there will be exceptions made when Christ returns in the future. Paul VERY CLEARLY indicated in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 that there will be people who are STILL ALIVE and remain on the earth at that time who will then be caught up to meet the Lord "in the air". NOWHERE does it say that those believers who are ALIVE and remain until the second coming of Christ will die. Instead, as Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54, they will not sleep/die, but instead will be "changed" at the last trumpet and will go from having natural, corruptible and mortal bodies to having spiritual, incorruptible and immortal bodies.

I certainly do see scripture teaching another future bodily coming of Christ in the end of the New Covenant Ages. And according to Hebrews 9:27, I don't see anyone surviving God's manifested glory in that coming return - not even the believers.

We are told that no one can look on the face of God while in this mortal life and survive the experience.

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We won't be mortal at that point. We will be changed to be immortal (1 Cor 15:51-54) before we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. So, you're making a straw man argument here.

Spiritual Jew said:

We will be changed to be immortal (1 Cor 15:51-54) before we are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

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No, THIS above is a contradiction of scripture, and is an assumption. No one escapes the one-time death appointment. 1 Thessalonians 4 never says anything at all about the living being changed into the immortal without dying. Neither does 1 Corinthians 15. That would directly contradict the Hebrews 9:27 rule, which applies to us all - believers included. This "rapture" event is not in our future. It is a past event back in AD 70 that took place on that year's Pentecost Day (Daniel's 1,335th day). Nothing but resurrected saints were gathered together to meet the Lord in the air. Some had been resurrected long before and were the "alive and remaining" ones Paul mentioned. Some were resurrected that very day, but together they all left this planet with Christ to return to heaven.

Those still living who haven't died yet in the future at Christ's second coming will die by the full manifested glory of that appearing, as Hebrews 9:27 says they are appointed to do so. With the believers to be resurrected immediately afterward.

3 Resurrections said:

How are you getting that I am "unsure" that the Matthew 27 resurrected saints had permanent incorruptible physical bodies? I have affirmed that on multiple occasions, but I'll agree to it again if you need me to. Of course they never died again; I have affirmed that also many times over.



Sorry, but I don't understand what you are objecting to, the way you have phrased this.

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The resurrection of the church started at the Cross and is an ongoing phenomenon. It will be complete at the Second Coming. There is not half a church there, and the rest waiting in their graves to get there. All of the church is already resurrected into Paradise. Only those remaining, currently alive or not yet born, are waiting for a resurrection.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is on earth for those living after the Second Coming. During the final harvest while Christ is on earth, many souls living today will be the firstfruits of the Millennium Kingdom. They have the same resurrection of a permanent incorruptible physical body. They are not born of the spirit, though. Those living on earth during the 1000 years, are not glorified nor take part in the second birth.

What is missing during the 1000 years is sin, a sin nature, and Satan. Death is still real, because rebellious children or offspring will be killed. That is the iron rod rule. And Death is the last enemy to be subdued. Death goes hand in hand with outright rebellion. Adam was told he would die, when he disobeyed. During the Millennium it will be instant Death, not a corruptible, sin nature body. That is why Paul stated:

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

John introduces Death as separate from sheol in the 4th Seal. After the 6th Seal, souls will be placed in Death. This is the condition of the goats in Matthew 25. Not placed in sheol, like now, but Death itself. The same with the tares. The Trumpets and Thunders cover this period on earth while Christ the Prince and the angels are gathering the final harvest. Every single nation on earth is being harvested. The 144k are also involved in this harvest. The church will be in Paradise, waiting for the New Jerusalem in the NHNE.

All should agree that until the Cross, souls just did not enter Paradise as a rule. There were exceptions. Paradise was opened wide, yet many think not physically until the Second Coming. Those are the Amil and post mill group. Amil associate the first resurrection with the second birth, and claim only a spiritual component and not the physical resurrection of Christ as capable in the here and now. Post mill just think the earth will keep getting better and better. Both claim Daniel's 70 weeks were finished in spirit, but in no physical application.

Pre-mill teach the 70th week will be completed, at the Second Coming, but sin will continue. That is just as bad as the other group who claim the 70th week was completed 1991 years ago.

The Second Coming will restore the church to the full image of God, that Adam lost. That completes the punishment given to Adam. But the 70th week was given to Jacob and his sons, not to Adam and all humanity. Yet God will grant the Millennial Kingdom to all humanity as blessed by Israel on earth. Yet to get there one will have to be beheaded instead of taking the mark and listening to Satan. Not rewarded by living a Christian life, but loosing all one holds dear, yet physically saved with a physical bodily resurrection.

If Adam's flesh and blood had to wait 4000 years, until physical redemption, what is the rush that all of prophetic history was accomplished by 70AD? Preterist are way too impatient, and have no vested interest in what happened 1991 years ago. Why would them, declaring a fictional history, change anything? It already happened. Thinking about something is not going to allow time travel to literally go back and change the past. Adam's offspring had to wait the full 6000 years to finish the punishment of sin and decay from sin. See the 4th Commandment in Exodus 20.

At the Cross, birth into the family of God, was not just an act of faith. This spiritual power was granted to all of Adam's flesh and blood, not just Jacob's family. Although historist declare by now, surely all have Abraham's DNA. That really does not matter if true or not. Abel obeyed the Holy Spirit working in him, just like Enoch and Noah. If the "magic" is in the dna now, then the Holy Spirit was already at work sealing all of Adam's flesh and blood, who had faith in God's Word.

The Cross just placed God front and center again as the physical sight that had only been a promise held onto by faith. Now the spiritual birth was even more substantial like the physical permanent incorruptible bodies walking around in Paradise. The power of the Holy Spirit gave all of humanity a taste of the next chapter affirmed to those souls who have passed on to Paradise, and made sheol out to be a far greater punishment than just soul sleep. Eternal separation from God became more realistic than ever before. Until religion replaced action, and theology quenched the fire of the Holy Spirit, save those who literally had to endure the flame to enter Paradise. The Reformation did throw off the bondage of one religion, while also adding to it a multitude of other evils.

If humans have put up with the almost 6000 years of life with sin, then why deny the 1000 years promised in Revelation 20 without sin and without Satan? What messed up theology is so strong, that it blinds people to the simple point of God's plan for His creation? Maybe there have been Preterist who keep denying the last 1991 years possible, yet time marches on? Perhaps there have always been deniers of a future millennium, while claiming the present will just keep getting indefinitely larger?

Yet when any try to point out the changes that God has afforded, they are scoffed and branded as dispensationalist. Not to mention the whole theological mess of who is Israel and who is not. Who is Abraham's seed and who is not.

Paul pointed out that God was working it out in order. The point where God became flesh, the point where Christ will return as Prince. The handing back the kingdom after a 1000 year reign. Of course Paul could not tell us the length of times involved. Of course the church was to expect it at any time. Why point out a fact where the church could just procrastinate, before it got down to business? The church fell prey to religion either way, despite the hope of a soon return. Each generation of new believers would have to endure to the end of their own generation despite all the theology that was forced upon them.

Bob_1000 said:

Well I am understanding correctly lol. I've seen you post that the 1st resurrection is a spiritual resurrection where we are passed from death to life and I agree and that's what 1 Corinthians 15 is telling us. What I don't agree with is the "other" resurrection, the resurrection of the dead earthly body.

Everything in Corinthians 15 is about BARE GRAIN that is planted in something corrupt, dishonorable, and natural.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest (bare grain) is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest (bare grain), thou sowest (bare grain) not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it (bare grain) a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed (seed varieties - black, white, oriental etc) his own body.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (bare grain) is sown in corruption; it (bare grain) is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It (bare grain) is sown in dishonour; it (bare grain) is raised in glory: it (bare grain) is sown in weakness; it (bare grain) is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It (bare grain) is sown a natural body; it (bare grain) is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul (bare grain placed inside a corrupt human body); the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

In the verses above, which verse isn't talking about bare grain aka the soul?

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Because this is symbolic, not literal. The soul is not literally planted in the ground as a grain of reality. Having a physical body and a spiritual body is also symbolic, and not literal.

The first resurrection is not spiritual nor of the spirit. It is only physical. The second birth is the quickening of the Holy Spirit into the family of God. That was already happening by faith in many examples, like Enoch, Noah, and Abraham. Yet the whole of the OT, had to wait, until Christ said, "It is finished" on the Cross. Then God afforded the OT church a physical resurrection, the first resurrection.

Even those in Paradise, as symbolized by John as "souls under the alter". They have been covered by the Atonement. Yet they wait for the full redemption as sons of God. The joining of the spirit as symbolized by putting on the robe of white. John did not see literal bodiless souls under an alter, and literal robes of white.

John was describing the whole of Paradise being glorified, hand in hand with the 6th Seal, when those remaining on earth are resurrected and glorified as Paul wrote about. John was writing as looking down from Paradise. Paul wrote inspired by the Holy Spirit as looking up into Paradise from earth.

Bob_1000 said:

The first man Adam was made a LIVING SOUL and then placed in a corrupt earthly body.

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Not so. Adam was made a living soul in a permanent incorruptible physical body.

Adam died physically when he disobeyed. That was when he and his offspring were condemned to the death of a corruptible sin nature physical body. Our physical body is death, because of Adam's disobedience, bringing sin into the world. Only the first resurrection can restore the incorruptible permanent physical body. Lazarus heard that voice and came out of the grave physically not spiritually. There is no separation of a physical and spiritual resurrection in John 5 at all. There is a spiritual birth, yes, but not to be conflated with the first physical resurrection. Jesus had to die and be the Atonement Covenant before the second birth was made possible. Jesus was the firstborn of the spiritual birth process. Lazarus was the first to be physically resurrected to a permanent incorruptible physical body. Then the thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day when his soul left his corruptible body of death. That is the first resurrection. The rest of the OT came out of their graves, and ascended physically with Jesus on Sunday, after Jesus told Mary, He was about to ascend that day.

Paul assured the NT church, they did not miss that resurrection, but it would happen at physical death. Those living could not prevent that resurrection from happening. No one would have to wait until the living were changed at the Second Coming. Which is still future, and thus no one has been waiting, but the first resurrection is an ongoing phenomenon.

3 Resurrections said:

No, THIS above is a contradiction of scripture, and is an assumption. No one escapes the one-time death appointment. 1 Thessalonians 4 never says anything at all about the living being changed into the immortal without dying. Neither does 1 Corinthians 15. That would directly contradict the Hebrews 9:27 rule, which applies to us all - believers included. This "rapture" event is not in our future.

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Yes, it most certainly is. No such thing has happened yet. Honestly, I believe your doctrine is completely messed up and I can't even begin to take it seriously.