Purgatory Biblical or Error

FutureAndAHope said:

I just clearly quoted the word of God. You are quoting your opinion.

Click to expand...

ok .... here are some scriptures as well

Many people ask, "Are there people suffering in hell right now?" Job 21:30-32 gives us a picture about hell and when its fires will burn. Job says, "For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; they shall be brought out on the day of wrath.” This text along with 2 Peter 3:7 shows that hell is not burning now, but at some date in the future the wicked are reserved and brought forth out of their graves for the day of wrath. John 5:28-29 also conveys the same message, “Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.” Again this outlines that the hour is coming in the future, but is not yet, when final condemnation and destruction happens. You can rest assured, that right now, at this moment, not one person is burning in hellfire.

This may surprise you, but the Bible says in several places that the wicked will be burned up and completely destroyed in hellfire. You heard right, the wicked will not burn forever. Malachi 4:1-5 says that on the day of the Lord, “'All the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That will leave them neither root nor branch’...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.” Psalms 37:10, 20 also states that the wicked will be no more, they will be carefully looked for but not found. Verse 20 adds that the enemies of the Lord will die and vanish away into smoke. All that is left of the wicked is smoke and ashes, there will not be any part of them left to be tortured forever. All wickedness will be removed from the earth. The root (Satan) as well as the branches (his followers) will become ashes with no more life left in them.


Are The Dead Really Dead?

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did we get here in the first place?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." Genesis 2:7.
Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

The spirits of both the righteous and the wicked return to God. Their bodies return to dust.

2. What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.

There is nothing mysterious about the spirit that returns to God at death. It is the breath of life.

3. What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

"The body without the spirit ["breath," see margin] is dead." James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him," see margin] is in my nostrils." Job 27:3.
Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

4. What is a "soul"?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (a person)." Genesis 2:7.

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

5. Do souls die?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.

Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.

Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!

Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

8. But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.
Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

Jesus calls death "sleep." It is a state of total unconsciousness.

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.

Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.
10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

The devil's first lie to Eve was "You won't die" - a statement completely contrary to all Scripture.

11. What was the devil's first lie?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.

Answer: Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. "Ye shall not surely die," he said.

Those who believe the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil's deceptions.

12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?

Answer: It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt Exodus 7:11, Woman of Endor 1 Samuel 28:3-25, Sorcerers Daniel 2:2, A certain damsel Acts 16:16-18.)

A Solemn Warning

In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery as he did in Daniel's day to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus' Disciples

Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

13. Do devils really work miracles?

"They are the spirits of devils, working miracles." Revelation 16:14. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24.
Answer: Yes, indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God's elect will not be deceived.

The elect will not be deceived, because they firmly reject everything that is contrary to Scripture.

14. Why will God's people not be deceived?

"They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11. "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

Answer: God's people will know from their earnest study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers who claim to receive special "light" or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

In Moses' day, people who claimed power to communicate with the dead were stoned to death.
15. Back in Moses' day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?

"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones." Leviticus 20:27.

Answer: God insisted that wizards and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

No one in God's new kingdom will ever die. Death will cease at the destruction of Satan.
16. Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?
"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, ... Neither can they die any more." Luke 20:35, 36. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.

Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God's new kingdom.

Reincarnation is impossible. Because God says all who died, both good and evil, are in their graves.

17. Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing. ... Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.

Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

The Bible Says

After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

Satan's Invention

We learned in questions 11 and 12 that Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

I am thankful for the Bible, which tells us the truth on this sensitive subject of death.

Worship your god of torture if you must ..... I do not and will not.

Love does not include torture .... even atheists know that.

FutureAndAHope said:

Well, I have heard that it is a place where you are punished partially for your sins, purged of evil, and from there you can be given entrance to heaven. This is aided by prayers, and gifts to the church.

But I have never actually studied it in detail.

Click to expand...

I think it would help if you knew at least what it is that you are objecting to.

eleos1954 said:

* * *
You heard right, the wicked will not burn forever. Malachi 4:1-5 says that on the day of the Lord, “'All the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,' Says the Lord of hosts, 'That will leave them neither root nor branch’...You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet.”

Click to expand...

Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context.
Even as you quoted this it does not say what you claim it does. "the day which is coming shall burn them up,'" This is what happens one day in this life when God conquers Israel's enemies.

Psalms 37:10, 20 also states that the wicked will be no more, they will be carefully looked for but not found. Verse 20 adds that the enemies of the Lord will die and vanish away into smoke. All that is left of the wicked is smoke and ashes, there will not be any part of them left to be tortured forever. All wickedness will be removed from the earth. The root (Satan) as well as the branches (his followers) will become ashes with no more life left in them.

Click to expand...

Psalm 37 is often quoted out-of-context. It has nothing to do with the eternal fate of evildoers.
This has nothing to do with the eternal fate of evildoers it is what happens to Israel's enemies when God conquers them, in this life, cut down as grass, wither as a green plant.
"evildoers shall be cut off" like grass or green plants see vs. 2.
Israel's enemies are no longer there attacking them. Israel will not be in heaven looking for their enemies place.
Nothing to do with their eternal fate, The wicked have drawn out the sword and pulled their bows attacking Israel but they are killed by their own swords in this life not in eternity.
"The wicked shall perish," cut down like grass withered like green plants. see vs.2
"transgressors shall be destroyed together," cut off. like grass see vs. 2.
I might suggest you review all of your proof texts and make sure they are not quoted out-of-context.
* But I am sure you won't do this. *

Heb 9:27 is the go-to verse, yet people ignore that the time between death and judgment is not immediate. (I have not studied Purgatory, but may be referring to this state.) The dead don't cease to exist. Some may be "asleep" but others seem to be awake like the rich man. That unspoken time is in the realm of the dead, in the compartments of Sheol which means underworld, which equals NT Hades, the abode of departed spirits. There is located Gehenna and Paradise (I’m not sure whether Paradise has moved after Christ "took captives"). Tartarus and Abyss or Bottomless Pit are also contained there for “the angels who sinned.” We do not know what exactly is transpiring but people are not in a state of non-existence. They are conscious of where they are. We do know Christ has "the keys," and also the prerogative to do as he sees fit with each and every soul. He "descended" there after his death and can do so now. No one will cheat their way to the heavenly kingdom of Christ, nor with any be cheated out of it.

eleos1954 said:

* * *
Worship your god of torture if you must ..... I do not and will not. * * *

Click to expand...

You are the only one talking about "torture."
Where you come from what does this verse mean?
Some folks like to argue that αιωνιον/aionion does not mean "eternal" it means something silly like "age during." "aionion' is an adjective, "age" is a noun, "during" is a preposition.
They say "Kolasis" doesn't mean punishment it means "correction."
"Kolasis" occurs one other time in the NT.
Note the one who has "kolasis" is not made perfect, not corrected.

FutureAndAHope said:

What justification from scripture do Orthodox groups give for the idea of Purgatory. I can not find any justification for such an idea, if it is unbiblical it should be considered a heresy, not a truth.


My reading of scripture shows that hell can never be left, you can’t leave the punishment of hell once you get there. As Jesus Himself said “no one from either side [of heaven and hell] can cross over”.


Luke 16:25-26 Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over."


The bible also states that we are not to pray for people who have died in their sins. We can’t pray, or pay, for relatives, or other people’s sins.


1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Click to expand...

The doctrine of purgatory is that it’s not hell, and is only temporary - thus it’s heck, and not hell

See, the purgatory doctrine was a necessary relief valve retrofitted to Catholic doctrine after the Church settled on eternal conscious torment as its official eschatology (special shout out to Augustine and Justinian). This was so, they reasoned, because otherwise none would make the grade, it would be a total blowdown, heaven would be a bridge too far, the Book of Life would be abridged to a very short scroll. So some kind of incentive structure and liberalising policy was required, artificial though it was. I can imagine the bishops: 'I say, why don't we lift that old purifying fire idea that used to be really popular until we fired its adherents, just for us though.' 'Brilliant, but we're already saying the Lake of Fire is hell'. 'Never mind, just bolt it on, nobody will ask questions, they want it, they need it.'

That's the kind of insanity that occurs when you have to make things fit other things that aren't real. And here we are.

Shrewd Manager said:

See, the purgatory doctrine was a necessary relief valve retrofitted to Catholic doctrine after the Church settled on eternal conscious torment as its official eschatology (special shout out to Augustine and Justinian). This was so, they reasoned, because otherwise none would make the grade, it would be a total blowdown, heaven would be a bridge too far, the Book of Life would be abridged to a very short scroll. So some kind of incentive structure and liberalising policy was required, artificial though it was. I can imagine the bishops: 'I say, why don't we lift that old purifying fire idea that used to be really popular until we fired its adherents, just for us though.' 'Brilliant, but we're already saying the Lake of Fire is hell'. 'Never mind, just bolt it on, nobody will ask questions, they want it, they need it.'

Click to expand...

That's the kind of insanity that occurs when you have to make things fit other things that aren't real. And here we are.

Click to expand...

I can't tell the difference between that and denying Matthew 25:46.

Seems you recognize the insanity when you see it, except when it is your own.

Shrewd Manager said:

* * * the Church settled on eternal conscious torment as its official eschatology (special shout out to Augustine and Justinian). * * *

Click to expand...

Rubbish.
…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted.
…..According to these three sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not refute anything in the following post.
[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]

Clare73 said:

I can't tell the difference between that and denying Matthew 25:46.

Click to expand...

I invite you therefore to ruminate upon it further, Clare. May the Lord open your eyes.

Der Alte said:

Rubbish.

Click to expand...

I'd have hoped my post would have at least attained to the coveted Der Alte 'nonsense and bloviation' standard, but anyway...

Der Alte said:

Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted.

Click to expand...

I don't disagree that the Jewish oral tradition pitched Gehenna as a burning hell - mainly for Christians! But obviously some Christians weren't too happy with this interpretation, and preferred to be using the threat of hell against non-Christians. So the Catholics (especially the Romanised lot) posited it was for sinners. Then they realised that we're ALL sinners. So they clawed back purgatory (with certain amendments) from other Christians (such as Christ himself, the apostles and many of the early fathers), who treated the eternal fire as God's hospital, the place where the dross is refined.

Got any dross to refine, Der Alte, any sins to overcome? That's what the fire does - destroys the fleshly instincts and purifies the new man. Is it painful? Could be. Does it last a long time? Could do. But the purpose and the outcome is salvation. It can't be any other way, as our God is He who saves.

Shrewd Manager said:

I invite you therefore to ruminate upon it further, Clare. May the Lord open your eyes.

Click to expand...

And yours?

Shrewd Manager said:

I'd have hoped my post would have at least attained to the coveted Der Alte 'nonsense and bloviation' standard, but anyway...

Click to expand...

i change them up periodically.

I don't disagree that the Jewish oral tradition pitched Gehenna as a burning hell - mainly for Christians! But obviously some Christians weren't too happy with this interpretation, and preferred to be using the threat of hell against non-Christians.

Click to expand...

No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence. Please note everything I posted was documented in Jewish sources NOT internet gossip/rumor.

So the Catholics (especially the Romanised lot) posited it was for sinners. Then they realised that we're ALL sinners. So they clawed back purgatory (with certain amendments) from other Christians (such as Christ himself, the apostles and many of the early fathers), who treated the eternal fire as God's hospital, the place where the dross is refined.

Click to expand...

Smoke and mirrors Not relevant to my post in any way.

Got any dross to refine, Der Alte, any sins to overcome?

Click to expand...

Stick to the topic.

That's what the fire does - destroys the fleshly instincts and purifies the new man. Is it painful? Could be. Does it last a long time? Could do. But the purpose and the outcome is salvation. It can't be any other way, as our God is He who saves.

Click to expand...

Show me one scripture, 2 or more would be better, where God burns the dross off of the unrighteous after death, in the grave, in hades, in sheol, in the lake of fire or anywhere else?
What I have repeatedly documented is that in Israel among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, everlasting fiery punishment NOT "torture." The Jews called tht place both sheol and Ge Hinnom, which were translated in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as Hades and Gehenna.
Jesus undoubtedly know what the Jews believed about eternal punishment. What Jesus taught did not contradict the existing belief but supported it.

Der Alte said:

i change them up periodically.

Click to expand...

Sure, keep it fresh.

Der Alte said:

No, zero, none credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical evidence. Please note everything I posted was documented in Jewish sources NOT internet gossip/rumor.

Click to expand...

Huh? One of the quotes you gave specifically said Gehenna was for Christians.

Der Alte said:

Smoke and mirrors Not relevant to my post in any way.

Click to expand...

You changed the subject responding to my previous post about purgatory.

Der Alte said:

Stick to the topic.

Click to expand...

That's the topic, purgatory or eternal torment.

Der Alte said:

Show me one scripture, 2 or more would be better, where God burns the dross off of the unrighteous after death, in the grave, in hades, in sheol, in the lake of fire or anywhere else?

Click to expand...

You know there's lots of scripture about God being a consuming refining fire. Also Jesus overcoming death and raising the dead to life. So you shouldn't need a diagram to figure it out.

Der Alte said:

What I have repeatedly documented is that in Israel among the Jews before and during the time of Jesus there was a significant belief in a place of eternal, everlasting fiery punishment NOT "torture." The Jews called tht place both sheol and Ge Hinnom, which were translated in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as Hades and Gehenna.

Click to expand...

I'm not arguing about that - but Jesus says they're wrong, Gehenna is a place one would prefer not to go, but it's a place of restorative justice.

Der Alte said:

Jesus undoubtedly know what the Jews believed about eternal punishment. What Jesus taught did not contradict the existing belief but supported it.

Click to expand...

Now that, sir, is piffle and balderdash. If Jesus supported it, he would be supporting sending his own followers to hell forever. Because that's what your quotes are all about.

Shrewd Manager said:

Huh? One of the quotes you gave specifically said Gehenna was for Christians.

Click to expand...

No it did not. See bottom answer here.

You changed the subject responding to my previous post about purgatory.
That's the topic, purgatory or eternal torment.

Click to expand...

You changed the topic to me "Got any dross to refine, Der Alte, any sins to overcome?"

You know there's lots of scripture about God being a consuming refining fire. Also Jesus overcoming death and raising the dead to life. So you shouldn't need a diagram to figure it out.

Click to expand...

Only three, Deuteronomy 4:24, Deuteronomy 9:3, Hebrew 12:29

I'm not arguing about that - but Jesus says they're wrong, Gehenna is a place one would prefer not to go, but it's a place of restorative justice.

Click to expand...

Where did Jesus tell the Jews their belief in hell was wrong? Where does any verse, any speaker say that Gehenna was a place of restorative justice. That is an assumption based on unrelated verses.
"Kolasis" does NOT and has never meant "correction" despite internet gossipo you may have read.

Now that, sir, is piffle and balderdash. If Jesus supported it, he would be supporting sending his own followers to hell forever. Because that's what your quotes are all about.

Click to expand...

Wrong! The Jews of Jesus' day believed in a place of eternal punishment which they called both sheol and Ge Hinnom which was translated in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as hades and Gehenna. When Jesus taught His Jewish listeners "eternal fire" and "eternal punishment, hades and Gehenna" would that contradict or support what the Jews believed?

Der Alte said:

No it did not. See bottom answer here.

Click to expand...

Der Alte said:

Wrong! The Jews of Jesus' day believed in a place of eternal punishment which they called both sheol and Ge Hinnom which was translated in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as hades and Gehenna. When Jesus taught His Jewish listeners "eternal fire" and "eternal punishment, hades and Gehenna" would that contradict or support what the Jews believed?

Click to expand...

You said this:

Der Alte said:

[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,

Click to expand...

So you're relying on a source that says the Jews believed Gehenna was a place of eternal punishment for Christians? Are you a Marrano der Alte? Why on earth would a professing Christian rely on Jewish vitriol condemning all Christians to hell? Do you agree then that all Christians will be consigned to hell?

Der Alte said:

You changed the topic to me "Got any dross to refine, Der Alte, any sins to overcome?"

Click to expand...

Same topic, you dodged.

Der Alte said:

Only three, Deuteronomy 4:24, Deuteronomy 9:3, Hebrew 12:29

Click to expand...

Ehrm, Malachi 3:2, Zechariah 13:9...

Der Alte said:

Where did Jesus tell the Jews their belief in hell was wrong?

Click to expand...

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you traverse the sea and the dry land to make one convert, and whenever it may happen, you make him twofold more a son of Gehenna than yourselves. (Mt 23:15).

And so many other places, including Richie and Lazarus.

Der Alte said:

Where does any verse, any speaker say that Gehenna was a place of restorative justice.

Click to expand...

That's the entire Biblical narrative, ending with the nations and kings of the earth repentant (Rev 21:24-6) and receiving the healing from Christ and removal of the curse (Rev 22:2-3).

Der Alte said:

"Kolasis" does NOT and has never meant "correction" despite internet gossipo you may have read.

Click to expand...

As ye judge, so shall ye be judged.

FutureAndAHope said:

What justification from scripture do Orthodox groups give for the idea of Purgatory. I can not find any justification for such an idea, if it is unbiblical it should be considered a heresy, not a truth.


My reading of scripture shows that hell can never be left, you can’t leave the punishment of hell once you get there. As Jesus Himself said “no one from either side [of heaven and hell] can cross over”.


Luke 16:25-26 Abraham answered, "My friend, remember that while you lived, you had everything good, and Lazarus had everything bad. Now he is happy, and you are in pain. And besides, there is a deep ditch between us, and no one from either side can cross over."


The bible also states that we are not to pray for people who have died in their sins. We can’t pray, or pay, for relatives, or other people’s sins.


1Jn_5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Click to expand...

The place Jesus described in the Luke 16 story of Lazarus and the rich man is real, the idea of the Catholics called purgatory is not.

Der Alte said:

I will only address this since you have a problem with the truth. You deliberately omitted this after the mention of Christians i.e. "minim . . . informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers,"
Let me know if/when you intend to participate in a truthful discussion.

Click to expand...

That's rich, coming from you der Alter.

The quote is from 'orthodox' Jews condemning Christians and others. Or are you saying these Jews are accepting the Resurrection? Because that would make them Christians. If you interpret the quote the way you suggest, it's clearly fabricated as the Jews hated Jesus and would in no wise give a free pass to believers in the resurrection.