Are the saints in Paradise and Heaven glorified or waiting for us?

The Righterzpen said:

Also, Jesus is not suffering now. To be "long suffering" means to be patient. Long suffering does not mean eternal depression.

And also consider that what people like me have ,(or may have) said to you, concerning the difference between human suffering and the suffering of Christ, are actually directed by God pointing you to Scriptural truth.

Hebrews 12:
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;

13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

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When Apostle Paul was persecuting the church of the living God, Jesus appeared to him and said, why are you persecuting me ?

He asked who art thou Lord ? Jesus said to him, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest."





Acts 22:4 And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.


Acts 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Acts 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.


Jesus was hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, in prison, which was the least ones and the goats did not do unto them, was them not doing unto Jesus.






Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.



Th least ones are here, the little ones, and giving a cup of water to them in the name of Jesus, is to know they are on the part of Jesus ( all are one with Him in Spirit)..



Mark 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.




When anyone falls away, they crucify to themselves Christ afresh and pout Him ( Jesus Christ) to an open shame, they tread under foot the Son of God...




Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

GoldenKingGaze said:

Perhaps Rightzpen and Prophecy_UK could have there discussion digression here made into their own thread? From post 24?

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The words near your name say support against persecution, and I m showing how Christ continues to be persecuted, against someone saying He is not.

The saints are in paradise up in heavenly places with Christ, while they are suffering and enduring His persecutions.

GoldenKingGaze said:

I don't mean to say you are wrong, only that this a change of subject from the soteriological question of when people are glorified.

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Yes, and as people ask us of the hope in us, we are required to answer, not to change subject, but to keep to the faith of the subject, as the subject is Christ...



1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:




Just as Jesus had to be made perfect and glorified, it is the way to follow, we cannot precede Gods way...


Luke 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

prophecy_uk said:

When Apostle Paul was persecuting the church of the living God, Jesus appeared to him and said, why are you persecuting me ?

He asked who art thou Lord ? Jesus said to him, "I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest."

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Not sure what this has to do with "for the joy that was set before him endured the cross...."?

prophecy_uk said:

Jesus was hungry, thirsty, a stranger, naked, in prison, which was the least ones and the goats did not do unto them, was them not doing unto Jesus.

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And for people imprisoned by their sin; do you preach the "good news" to them, or do you just tell them how blessed you are to be depressed? (Because you're enduring the "suffering of Christ"?) The gospel is suppose to set people free!

prophecy_uk said:

Yes, and as people ask us of the hope in us, we are required to answer, not to change subject, but to keep to the faith of the subject, as the subject is Christ...

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And what is the hope that lies within you? In my conversation with you; I've yet to see any hope!

prophecy_uk said:

Th least ones are here, the little ones, and giving a cup of water to them in the name of Jesus, is to know they are on the part of Jesus ( all are one with Him in Spirit)..

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Well, here is a theological question about election that a lot of people have wrestled with. Are children "automatically deemed unaccountable to a certain age"? There certainly have been instances where children have murdered other children out of plain abject callousness. (And these kids are 6!, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 years old when they committed these crimes!) Are these kids "on the part of Jesus (all are one with Him in Spirit)"?

10 Absolutely Brutal Child Killers - Listverse
17 Murder Cases About Kids Killing People That’ll Scare The [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Out Of You

There was another story I remember hearing on Focus on the Family of a little girl who was so willfully defiant of her mother; it ended up costing the kid her life. She was about 3 years old, playing in the yard. He mother was outside doing yard work. The mother noticed a car coming down the road. She looked at where her daughter was. The kid looked at the car, looked at her mom, got this mischievous grin on her face. The mother yelled "NO!" The kid jumped up and ran right into the street. She didn't survive the collision! Willful human disobedience sometimes has really bad outcomes!

Children "per capita" often have more "behavioral problems" and "mental health problems" than adults do (and for several reasons; some of which are related to brain development). But kids are NOT unaccountable to God for their sin!

Behavioural and emotional disorders in childhood: A brief overview for paediatricians

prophecy_uk said:

When anyone falls away, they crucify to themselves Christ afresh and pout Him ( Jesus Christ) to an open shame, they tread under foot the Son of God...

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Try including the entire context of the passages in Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10. These people didn't "fall away". They were never redeemed in the first place. Those who are God's elect don't fall away.

Hebrews 6:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit. (He's addressing the topic of redemption.)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

(For if they'd really known true faith; in order for them to be redeemed after falling away; Christ would have to be crucified again. Christ was only crucified "once and for all".

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

(why is it burned? Because it was not redeemed to begin with!)

Now Hebrews 10:

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

(Jesus is not sacrificed over and over again when ever someone sins. That's a false doctrine. That's one of the problems the RCC has with the mass. They profess to crucify Christ every time they perform it.)

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Jesus is no longer suffering. His work is finished. So from the resurrection on; the job of the Holy Ghost was to enact regeneration in God's elect; those whom Christ had atoned for their sin.

The redeemed are converted with judgment, and with righteousness.

To be holy, as the Lord is holy.

The Father judges without respect of the person, according to every man's work.

They pass their time in fear ( of God) as they know they were redeemed without corruptible things, but by the precious blood of Christ, without blemish and without spot.




Isaiah 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:




Elect, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

The trial of our faith is precious, and if need be, we are in heaviness through manifold temptations.



1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:




Giving all diligence add to our faith virtue, and knowledge and temperance, and patience, and godliness, and brotherly kindness, and charity.

If these things are in us, they make us to never be barren nor unfruitful ( fall away, as that which brings thorns and briars is rejected)

Give diligence to make our calling and election sure, to do those things we shall never fall. ( fall away)

But they who lack those things are blind, and forgot they were purged from their old sins.




2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:




Put on then as the elect of God, holiness, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering, forbearing one another, forgiving, as Christ forgave us, and put on charity, the bond of perfectness.



Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

@Faithful777 - Did you get tired of your @prophecy_uk account?

Sanctification is a commandment of God, as it is the will of God.

To achieve sanctification ( to be holy as the Lord is holy) the body needs to be without fornication, as it is the temple of God and is required by God who dwells in us, to be in honour.

Those in lust do not know God, neither those who defraud their brother in any matter, and the Lord is the avenger on all who do defraud.




1 Thessalonians 4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

The corruptible must put on incorruption ( this mortal, must out on immortality, which is to put on Jesus Christ who is eternal life ) must put on Christ who is not corruptible and who saw no corruption ( Christ saw no death as He is life, Jesus Christ is the true God and eternal life)



1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Acts 13:35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.




That is the mystery, and death is swallowed p in victory, as God gave us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. First the mortal and corruptible, must put on Christ....



1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.




Then we are given the lively hope, through Jesus Christ, by His resurrection from the dead ( this is how this mortal can put on immortality, and how this corruptible can put on incorruption.

The inheritance is incorruptible, and we were not redeemed with corruptible things, but with the precious blood of Christ, without spot or blemish.


Then we purify our souls, in obeying the truth through the Spirit, sincere love for the brothers, loving one another with a pure heart, being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, because the WORD of God ( Jesus Christ the WORD, is eternal life, who we must put on) who He lives and abides for ever.



1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The Righterzpen said:

(Jesus is not sacrificed over and over again when ever someone sins. That's a false doctrine. That's one of the problems the RCC has with the mass. They profess to crucify Christ every time they perform it.)

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Absolutely false. Please do not misrepresent the Catholic Church. The Catholic Catechism is online from the Vatican so no one should be putting out false information about Catholic teaching:

Catholic Catechism 1330 The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

The Holy and Divine Liturgy, because the Church's whole liturgy finds its center and most intense expression in the celebration of this sacrament; in the same sense we also call its celebration the Sacred Mysteries. We speak of the Most Blessed Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of sacraments. The Eucharistic species reserved in the tabernacle are designated by this same name.

GoldenKingGaze said:

I think the Bible is a summary and it teaches us until we die and then we don't need a paper book, but we will be expertly sanctified. Many NDEs promise this.

Some NDEs are horrors and the ones who seem them benefit. It seems there are a few destinations accordng to Ivan Rudolph in Living Beyond, which organises these accounts. Heaven, paradise, a prison section and a view of a lake of fire.

I agree Christ is our reward but Jesus speaks of rewards plural, and I cannot say I know what they are. Stones, gifts, powers, beauty...?

The Bible is a summary. Can you trust your guardian angel will not fall? or Michael the archangel? There is no suggestion there are anymore falling angels. And temptation is finite, The tempting to fall is over and the angels have a perfect nature. I can only suppose that we to could have obtained such a nature, if our ancestors remained obedient in the Garden of Eden, the presence of God and the tree of knowledge of good and evil would have made perfect blood.

I think the Bible says the angels are perfect and absolutely trustworthy. They served Moses and we have the Bible through them.

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Well at this point; seems to me that you have ventured into the realm where you are looking for more than just Scripture alone to inform your understanding. And we are not going to come to any consensus considering what you are looking to for your authority.

So, I don't know if you know any people who are "Bible only" or why that is the case? But I don't see us having any productive conversation looking to two different authorities wherewith we believe truth stands.

Valletta said:

Absolutely false. Please do not misrepresent the Catholic Church. The Catholic Catechism is online from the Vatican so no one should be putting out false information about Catholic teaching:

Catholic Catechism 1330 The memorial of the Lord's Passion and Resurrection.

The Holy Sacrifice, because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ the Savior and includes the Church's offering. The terms holy sacrifice of the Mass, "sacrifice of praise," spiritual sacrifice, pure and holy sacrifice are also used,150 since it completes and surpasses all the sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

The Holy and Divine Liturgy, because the Church's whole liturgy finds its center and most intense expression in the celebration of this sacrament; in the same sense we also call its celebration the Sacred Mysteries. We speak of the Most Blessed Sacrament because it is the Sacrament of sacraments. The Eucharistic species reserved in the tabernacle are designated by this same name.

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What was the point of Christ's atonement when you are offering "sacrifices" for what ever it is you are "sacrificing for"?

The Righterzpen said:

What was the point of Christ's atonement when you are offering "sacrifices" for what ever it is you are "sacrificing for"?

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Jesus explained why entering into this one sacrifice is so important: John 6:53-56:
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."
Paul explains our participation in this one sacrifice:
1 Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
We can offer our sacrifice of praise and adoration at mass, and we can unite all that we are with Jesus in this awesome sacrament.

GoldenKingGaze said:

Well I'd say Paul the Pharisee was changed into the most prolific apostle by see the glory of God, on the road to Damascus.

If what you see when you die is not what you read in the Bible, or the Qu'ran or the Gita is there a reason to complain? Would you put the logos above the experience? Besides, it is experiencing and receiving the Spirit that leads to livening of scripture into truth and rhema words, of promise and authority. I think by scripture alone is clever but man made and limited. John taught that the anointing teaches us all things.

God's Spirit is to be actual and local. It effects and changes, heals, fills and leads. He leads through scriptures and from scripture. What you see in the afterlife should be to some extent expected and that you will find in hundreds of NDE accounts. What Paul and John saw, the throne, the firey glass around it, the glory of God in the face of Christ, love, light, healing...

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Yet when Satan disguises himself as an angel of light; what do you stand on as to what you know is true?

Our "experience" lies to us all the time. I have a son who has epilepsy. There are times when he's had seizures that he sees things that aren't there. He's had auditory hallucinations from medication. I went to the grocery store one evening and pulled into the driveway with a frantic text telling me to call the police. My son was sure someone was in the kitchen. (Now that had never happened before.) I did call 911. Read them the text message. The police did come. And it had turned out that he was hallucinating from what was later determined to be Aderall. Called the doctor, took him to the ER. Did some blood work. Didn't find anything in his system that they didn't expect to be there. Took him off that med and that never happened again.

Just because an experience is real to us; doesn't mean it's really happening.

I myself have hallucinated from exhaustion. I have PTSD from both family of origin issues as well as a war. I don't have "loose touch with reality" level flashbacks; but I've seen those happen. My "flash backs" are more like "living in the twilight zone". Like I'm caught between two different worlds. The one I currently see around me and the one in my memory. When I get PTSD "triggers" I feel like I'm "half missing". Like a part of me has gone someplace else. I may feel emotionally numb, sad or angry.

Yet I know from the Bible that my soul just can't just "get up and leave" without me dying. Because "the breath of life" is what makes one a "living soul". The breath of life comes from God. If I'm still physically alive, than the breath of life is still present and I'm still in possession of my own soul. And that truth I know from Scripture.

And yes, I have had what I'd call a "near death experience". I was in a catastrophic car accident and yes, I would have died had I not gotten the proper medical attention in time. I do remember most of what happened. I remember being put into a helicopter. I remember throwing up 2 to 3 times during the ride. I remember what the paramedics said to me. I remember what the police said to me. I remember coming off the chopper, rolling through a hospital hallway into the OR and I'd already been intubated and the paramedic squeezing the little bulb was making me breath. That was a weird sensation. I remember someone cutting my clothes off. They stuck a urinary catheter in me while prepping for surgery and that was the last thing I remembered. I woke up in recovery screaming because my back hurt so bad. Once they repositioned me, I "went back to sleep".

Somewhere between these two conscious memories; I remember an event that was "like a dream". I didn't remember it until like 6 months later; but I remembered it. I was standing in this dark space where it looked like someone had ripped through the divide between here and eternity. There was light coning from the other side of the tear and in that was the silhouette of a human in a long garment. I couldn't see the face, but my first thought was "Oh! It's Jesus!" So I started moving toward the figure. The figure pointed through the divide to behind me and said: "No, go back. Your son needs you!" I vaguely remember OR lights and noises and my chest hurt real bad. Although there was nothing recorded in the medical record that I'd been "defibrillated". Maybe I was and in the chaos, that never got recorded? I don't know.

Now what was that experience? Was it a dream? Was it an angel? I doubt it was actually Jesus. Was it some sort of biological process that happens as part of death? Triggered by lack of O2 to the brain? I have no idea. Doesn't matter though. I'm here now and the commission God gave me to preach the gospel is at least part of the reason why I'm still here. Obviously, another part of my "purpose in life" is to take care of my son. He's almost 20 and he has some obvious limitations his epilepsy causes. What ever path God has before us in helping my son find his "purpose in life". I don't know. We just "walk the road".

The gospel though is not about my experience. It's about the truth of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. Redemption and to be delivered from the well deserved wrath of God is the only hope any human being has! What is written in Scripture is true. Doesn't mean that I always understand it. But it's true. It is the only thing that I'm certain is true. My experiences aren't necessarily true. My dreams aren't necessarily true. What I think "is" or "may be" true, may not be. I'm not omniscient. I don't "have all the facts". There are things happening in this world that I don't know about. So just because I dream about something or have experience X,Y or Z doesn't make it so.

Are there times in my life where I clearly see the hand of God has created a certain outcome? Absolutely there are! I don't believe in "dumb luck". Things happen for a reason and God puts people in my path for His reasons; even if I don't know what those reasons of His are.

Everything in my life though gets filtered through Scripture as much as I'm capable of doing so. For as much as I read, study and dig for understanding of God in the Bible.

I don't take stock in my dreams. Although Jesus is probably one of the people who shows up in my dreams the most. My son would be the second most frequent person that shows up in my dreams. Sometimes deceased family members show up in my dreams. Generally at that point though, I recognize that this is a dream because I know this person is dead.

The most frequent subject I dream about is war. I think I've dreamed about being in every war that I've ever known in history at this point. Now the ones that "seem the most real" are the ones related to the time I was actually in the military. Those are the ones that still wake me up. Yet the reality still sticks in my conscious as if for example, my son shows up in the dream. (Well this has to be a dream because my son was not alive during Desert Storm. He wasn't born yet.) I also know a war dream is a dream when it's the wrong war. (Wait a minute. This is a dream because I was not in WWII!)

When Jesus shows up in a dream; it's usually comforting. Sometimes it's funny. It's usually random in the dream. (He's in the grocery store. One dream He was driving a big white pick up truck and I backed into His truck. He was sitting behind me in my Bible literature class in college. He came to my cousin's wedding. I had a dream that He was the one flying the chopper that took me to the hospital. He will randomly show up as a recognizable presence in a war dream. And He's not always in "my army"! He showed up as an EPW (enemy prisoner of war) in dream once.)

So I interpret these dreams as simple orderings of my human conscious mind trying to make order of the events of my life. They aren't "messages from God". I know this, because I've also had dreams about Jesus that I know never would have happened in real life. He never would have consummated a human marriage with me. I know getting married and having children was not part of the purpose of His life. His purpose was to attain His inheritance through atoning for sin; not to produce a Divine race of people in the flesh. So no. Jesus never got married and had kids. Although He did have the experience of raising children after Joseph died because He would have raised His half-siblings.

So yes, my assessment of this conversation is accurate. You have a different authority of what you perceive to be the basis of truth than I do.

Valletta said:

Jesus explained why entering into this one sacrifice is so important: John 6:53-56:
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him."
Paul explains our participation in this one sacrifice:
1 Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?
We can offer our sacrifice of praise and adoration at mass, and we can unite all that we are with Jesus in this awesome sacrament.

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I know Roman Catholics believe in what is called "trans-substantiation". I do not find that to be a Biblical doctrine. Jesus Christ is currently reigning in heaven. What He'd told the church to do "in remembrance" of Him is a symbolic action, that is suppose to depict Him as the unifying factor among the people. It's not a sacrifice; it's a remembrance of the one and only true sacrifice that can atone for sin; and the group of people who've had their sins atoned for, remember Him in this act of sacrifice that He gave. If you believe the atonement is complete; (which Scripture says it is). There is no more sacrifice. There is only remembrance of what the atonement cost Christ.

We know the apostles / followers didn't take those words in John 6 literally, because no one ate Jesus. If the statements didn't mean cannibalism when He said them; they can't come to mean it in some other sense, after the fact. That is inconsistent with Scripture.

The Righterzpen said:

I know Roman Catholics believe in what is called "trans-substantiation". I do not find that to be a Biblical doctrine. Jesus Christ is currently reigning in heaven. What He'd told the church to do "in remembrance" of Him is a symbolic action, that is suppose to depict Him as the unifying factor among the people. It's not a sacrifice; it's a remembrance of the one and only true sacrifice that can atone for sin; and the group of people who've had their sins atoned for, remember Him in this act of sacrifice that He gave. If you believe the atonement is complete; (which Scripture says it is). There is no more sacrifice. There is only remembrance of what the atonement cost Christ.

We know the apostles / followers didn't take those words in John 6 literally, because no one ate Jesus. If the statements didn't mean cannibalism when He said them; they can't come to mean it in some other sense, after the fact. That is inconsistent with Scripture.

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Jesus is indeed alive, Jesus is alive in the Holy Eucharist, not dead. In fact the Apostles regularly participated in the "breaking of the bread." I know it is a "hard saying," but your ideas are not what the Apostle Paul nor Jesus taught. Your teaching about symbolism is not in the Bible. To the contrary, when confronted Jesus emphasized true eating by switching to the Greek word "trogein," which means to gnaw or to chew. In John 6:54-6:58 Jesus uses the word trogein four times.