Has the transformation of physical bodies already happened?

AdB said:

I now see I missed a particular part in your initial post, namely that you assume that the "who are alive and remain" is only applicable to all people who have been resurrected before Jesus was resurrected. Did I read this correctly? I think this is not the case though, all these people had already died (again) or were still alive and would die at some point.

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It was actually anyone who had been raised from the dead up to the time Paul was writing those words. That would have included people like Dorcas, whom Peter presented "ALIVE" to her acquaintances after she was resurrected in Acts 9:41.

You are assuming, as every one else usually does, that anybody resurrected in scripture simply died again later. There is ZERO scriptural or historical proof of that ever happening. That idea goes completely contrary to scripture. A bodily-resurrected saint NEVER dies again. They are INCAPABLE of dying twice; "Neither CAN they die anymore" (Luke 20:36). Again, Hebrews 9:27-28 strictly limits the death experience for humanity to one time ONLY.

This is reflective of the saints' spiritual resurrection also. One who is given eternal life has eternal security of that eternal life by the gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit within. They have "passed from death unto life", never to die spiritually again. Just as a physically-resurrected dead saint never dies again physically. Eternal life of the spirit is a mirror of the eternal life of the body in its change to the incorruptible.

It was all these individuals who had been resurrected up until Paul was writing 1 Thessalonians 4 who were still "alive" and who had "remained" on the earth in that resurrected state. All these resurrected saints were waiting for the next group resurrection and judgment of the dead, which Paul told Timothy was "about to" happen in those days (2 Timothy 4:1). They were the ones who experienced the "rapture".

This is NOT an event which we are waiting for ourselves. The "rapture" of the resurrected saints is history. Ancient history by now. When Christ returns the next time in the distant future, there will be no need for a "rapture" at that final judgment.

AdB said:

Once saved always saved?

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OSAS means "Once a SON, always a son". God never returns us to the "orphanage" after He adopts us as children of God.

AdB said:

It would be a known fact throughout the whole world if these resurrected saints had been around for a few centuries...

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Actually, it was a known fact in the church to that first-century generation. How do you think the Hymeneus and Philetus heresy got started? Those two men were well aware of those Matthew 27 resurrected saints remaining among them, and were teaching that THIS AD 33 resurrection was the one-and-only resurrection that would ever take place. "The resurrection is past already", they were teaching the rest of the believers (2 Timothy 2:17).

Paul had to correct that heresy, which had been discouraging the faith of some, by telling the Thessalonians that those "living and remaining" Matthew 27 resurrected saints would not precede the rest of the dead saints by ascending to heaven, leaving them behind in the grave. Those in the grave would actually be raised FIRST, and THEN the Matthew 27 resurrected saints would join them together in the air with the returning Christ.

AdB said:

That's only specularions, and I was referring to the world in general

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The purpose of those resurrected individuals remaining on earth was RAPID EVANGELISM in those first-century days, not self-promotion and sensationalism by bringing attention to their resurrected status. They were part of the fulfillment to the prayer Christ instructed His disciples to pray - to "send forth laborers into the harvest", because the "fields" were already white.

These resurrected individuals were an indestructible evangelistic labor force which could never get sick or weak, fall prey to sin or temptation, or physically die ever again. And they helped in preaching the gospel to the known world at that time, as Christ said would happen before He returned again prior to that generation's passing. "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14).

It was preached in all the nations, as Paul testified in Colossians 1:6 & 23, just before Christ did come as promised at "the end of all things", which Peter said was "at hand" in those days (1 Peter 4:7).

AdB said:

We can still walk away though...

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It is impossible to "walk away" from the Holy Spirit as the "spring of living water" that is implanted within. You can grieve that Holy Spirit by throwing cluttered debris into the "spring", but you cannot ever remove that spring from within, once God has put it there.

AdB said:

Why then is it written in the future tense? Because Paul and al he is writing to have already been regenerated in the spirit

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My guess is: because the regenerate are at once, while in this world, living the new life, yet are not free of the old. Their regeneration has happened; and must now take effect through the indwelling & sanctifying Spirit; until it is completed & perfected, at the Day of the Lord. Regeneration is an aspect of the renewal of all creation, the making new of all things, by which Christ asserts & exercises His Kingly Rule over what His Father has given Him. IOW, Christian experience has three tenses: past, present, future. It is Messiah-shaped experience, as per Rev 1.8: because the Messiah, is the Coming One.

So Jesus, the Messiah, is the Coming One. Rev. 1.8 echoes the revelation of the Name of God in Exodus 3.14, & makes it into a revelation of Christ the King. Just now, the Church on Earth (and all creation) is living after the Messiah has definitively come upon Earth into this "age", to establish the Kingdom of God on Earth; and she lives during His Coming, for which she awaits and prays; until she is perfected when He does come.

As a result of the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the Kingdom, Kingly Rule, & Kingship of Jesus the Messiah Who is the Coming One is already, though in part, present & energised & realised on Earth - including the hearts of men.

AdB said:

It does, it indicates some things that would happen with this event. Have these happened yet or not?

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2 Thessalonians 2

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

1 Timothy 1

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2

16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

I'm going to say that's probably a "No"

3 Resurrections said:

These resurrected individuals were an indestructible evangelistic labor force which could never get sick or weak, fall prey to sin or temptation, or physically die ever again.

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Wait... what ...?

"Ok Paul, hold on a minute. Don't actually need you here, going to deploy our INDESTRUCTIBLE EVANGELISTIC LABOR FORCE to those other territories. You stand back, you might get hurt"

Luke doesn't bother to mention the IELF™ when recording the book of Acts...?
I feel like that would be worth a footnote or two.

I mean, I'm not saying one's not coming, I just don't think we've seen that yet.

+1 for saying something I've never heard before though.

Petros2015 said:

2 Thessalonians 2

2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

1 Timothy 1

18 Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, 19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 2

16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.

I'm going to say that's probably a "No"

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It's true that NO, that "gathering" of the resurrected saints at the "Day of the Lord" had not happened yet as Paul was writing those various epistles between AD 54 and AD 66. But after AD 70, that second resurrection event at the second coming of Christ was history. Presently we are waiting on the third event...

Hi Petros2015,

I have often heard others say that there is no way possible that the gospel could have evangelized all the nations of the known world at that time, as Christ had promised would happen before He returned. For this reason, they claim that it would have been impossible for Christ to have staged His second coming before that first-century generation had passed.

This becomes a moot point if the evangelistic capabilities of the resurrected saints are considered. Christ had once told the disciples that personally, "ye shall not have finished going over the cities of Israel until the Son of Man be come." (Matthew 10:23). Yet by AD 60, Paul announced quite clearly in Romans 16:26 that the gospel "had been made known to all nations for the obedience of faith". On first examination, this seems to be a scriptural contradiction. It's not. Those disciples themselves personally had not completely evangelized all the cities of Israel before Christ returned, yet the gospel had other means of being spread throughout all the nations before then.

Paul, who "labored more abundantly than they all" played a huge part in this spreading of the gospel to the Gentile nations, even during his times of incarceration. But God had an even more effective evangelistic tool than the apostle Paul, operating during that first-century generation. This "tool" was that "multitude of captives" which Christ raised out of the grave the same day He arose, and then gave them as "gifts to men" (the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints).

Each of those "gifts" of resurrected individuals was given to serve in the early church as "apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." (Ephesians 4:11-12). By this means, the gospel was able to spread exponentially throughout the known world before Christ's AD 70 return, as Paul testified that level of evangelism had already taken place in those days (Col. 1:6 & 23). Even the remotest pocket of the world would not have been inaccessible for a resurrected saint to go where God intended His message to be carried in those days before His second coming in AD 70.

3 Resurrections said:

By this means, the gospel was able to spread exponentially throughout the known world before Christ's AD 70 return, as Paul testified had taken place in those days (Col. 1:6 & 23)

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... wait... say that again... ?
... Most of us are waiting for Christ's Second Coming - are you waiting for a 3rd?

Yes, you are.
This is just sinking in w me.
I don't see anything in these verses or near them to support that... ?

Colossians 1:3-6

3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all God’s people— 5 the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6 that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace.

Colossians 1:21-23

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Petros2015 said:

. wait... say that again... ?
... Most of us are waiting for Christ's Second Coming - are you waiting for a 3rd?

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Yes, just as scripture indicates. And it will not be soon, though that is a subject that is not permitted for discussion on these forums.

3 Resurrections said:

And it will not be soon.

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I would agree that the 3rd coming of Christ will probably not be soon.

Petros2015 said:

... Most of us are waiting for Christ's Second Coming - are you waiting for a 3rd?

Yes, you are.
This is just sinking in w me.
I don't see anything in these verses or near them to support that... ?

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A third coming is not spoken of in those two particular passages, but it is found elsewhere. Apologies for the way I worded that; it wasn't clear. I'll go back and fix that a bit to avoid confusion for what I meant to say.

3 Resurrections said:

A third coming is not spoken of in those two particular passages, but it is found elsewhere.

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I thought you were referencing them as support for a second coming in AD 70, but maybe you weren't. Where are you finding scriptural support for AD 70? Jerusalem gets burned during Passover in AD 70. Passover doesn't passover since they rejected the Messiah, is what I see happening historically there.

Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE) - Wikipedia

The siege of the city began on 14 April 70 CE, three days before the beginning of Passover that year.[4][5]
Titus began his siege a few days before Passover,[4] on 14 April,[5] surrounding the city with three legions (V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, XV Apollinaris) on the western side and a fourth (X Fretensis) on the Mount of Olives, to the east.[11][12] If the reference in his Jewish War at 6:421 is to Titus's siege, though difficulties exist with its interpretation, then at the time, according to Josephus, Jerusalem was thronged with many people who had come to celebrate Passover.[13]

I have a feeling I'll have to brush up on my Preterism here to really see where you are coming from. Generally not where I stand, but probably good for me to do so

Preterism - Wikipedia

Petros2015 said:

I thought you were referencing them as support for a second coming in AD 70, but maybe you weren't. Where are you finding scriptural support for AD 70? Jerusalem gets burned during Passover in AD 70. Passover doesn't passover since they rejected the Messiah, is what I see happening historically there.

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I WAS using those verses in Colossians to provide supporting proof that the gospel HAD been preached to all the nations before the AD 70 era rolled around. Christ had said that this spread of the gospel to "all the nations" would take place before His second coming, and Paul's testimony provides proof that this extended evangelistic coverage had happened already. This fulfillment, of course, does not prevent the gospel from continuing to spread through the nations after Christ's AD 70 return, all the way until His third coming and the final judgment in our future.

Jerusalem and its temple did not get burned up at Passover in AD 70, but it was by September 8. Christ's second coming and bodily return to the Mount of Olives took place 45 days into Titus' siege - on Pentecost day in AD 70 - which was exactly 1,335 days from the time Jerusalem was first surrounded by armies back in AD 66. Daniel's vision predicted this precise resurrection date: a resurrection in which he himself would also participate at the end of those 1,335 days (Daniel 12:11-13).

Even if you dig into Preterist teaching through various sources, I doubt you will find much about a third physical return of Christ. The debate seems to bounce back and forth between those who see either a past or a future resurrection. Neither Full Preterists nor Partial Preterists can bring themselves to acknowledge that it is both a couple of past bodily resurrection events (in AD 33 and AD 70) and also one future bodily resurrection. It is really the only way that the bits of truth in both camps could possibly be reconciled. Fortunately, this third bodily resurrection is there to be found in scripture, though it is almost universally dismissed when I produce those texts.

3 Resurrections said:

Jerusalem and its temple did not get burned up at Passover in AD 70, but it was by September 8. Christ's second coming and bodily return to the Mount of Olives took place 45 days into Titus' siege - on Pentecost day in AD 70 - which was exactly 1,335 days from the time Jerusalem was first surrounded by armies back in AD 66. Daniel's vision predicted this precise resurrection date: a resurrection in which he himself would also participate at the end of those 1,335 days (Daniel 12:11-13).

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Interesting. Thank you for taking the time to post this.
The possibility was previously outside of my conception.

I appreciate your reasonable tone, Petros2015. That is the most anybody can expect others to do - just to chew on what is proposed, and compare it with the foundation of scripture to see if there is truth in it.

This proposal is nothing more than recognizing a link between the 3 required harvest feasts back in the OT (at Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles), and 3 separate bodily-resurrection events for the believers. I believe God has used those 3 formerly-required harvest feast celebrations to provide a picture of how He would "harvest" the bodies of His saints out of the ground at those 3 specific times of the year in 3 separate events before He brings fallen man's history to a close.