I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel

Dave G. said:

So crucifixions of Christians in parts of the world, decapitations of Christians in parts of the world, church closings if you don't tout the party line has infiltrated in some western countries, church burnings in Canada and huge fines for gathering in some areas of the US and Canada doesn't bother you then ? That to you shows no signal ?

Click to expand...

There is always somebody who suffers, is raped, killed, bullied or tortured, there are 8 billion people on the planet, so you can find examples of anything.

To collect that, concentrate mainly on that and teach people that they will all suffer in the same way, is destroying their mental health and restricting them to live freely, buy and pay freely (cashless) or to travel (because of fear of biometric IDs) and to generally enjoy life and technological progress, because you make them to fear both near and distant future.

eclipsenow said:

Hear hear!
There is still the general suffering and scattered wars on this planet. But right now, statistically speaking, life really has never been better.

Click to expand...

I agree. When somebody looks at facts instead of emotions, we live in the best era ever which can be proved by various measurements like average life span, equality, democracy, knowledge, scientific progress, access to water, food, shelter and to general health....and there has never been so few wars.

eclipsenow said:

We've just been through a pandemic and with a population about 3 times that of the 1918 pandemic, we lost only about 10% of that horrible death toll - let alone the extraordinarily high per capita fatality numbers of the Black Plague. Something like a third of Europe died.

Then - if I remember a history of philosophy show I watched correctly - there had been 'futurists' predicting that OF COURSE the Black Plague was something from Revelation. One in three died, after all! (They didn't understand that symbolic number system was not literal - but represented God's grace in that while a significant number died - more survived. In God's grace, even with a world he was judging!)
This all led to a period of intense questioning of all authority and the so-called Renaissance. So the theory goes.

One could say the church's journey from the centre of western civilisation towards the edges started with some futurist predictions gone wrong...

Click to expand...

Interesting, I have never heard this.

myst33 said:

When I put this all away, I live a much peaceful, more deep and and more full Christian life without being manipulated.

Click to expand...

So why are you on the Eschatology forum? Will it not disturb the peace you speak of? As far as books go, you do not have to read them. If you feel manipulated by end time discussion, don't participate. The Lord wants you to be in peace.

myst33 said:

I have been to several churches and I think the communities were quite similar to each other. In each church are people who are more fanatical about some topic and people who are less.

But because I was a child or later teenager and young adult, it gave me paranoia and anxiety and to this day I must struggle with some subconcious fear that somebody (some all knowing government or organization preparing some torture for Christians) is watching and preparing something satanic in the background to come, even though I rationally know its not true.

Because of this, if it was on me, I would not allow futurism on Christian forums. It can damage people, its a dangerous ideology.

Click to expand...

Your experiences are real but I would not deny people entry to the forum. Internet forums have done much to provide a platform for rebutting heresy. More people are beginning to turn away from dispensational futurism than would’ve happened if we had written 1000 books. My suggestion to you is that you use your testimony on the forum to help people realise the falseness of this doctrine.

myst33 said:

There is always somebody who suffers, is raped, killed, bullied or tortured, there are 8 billion people on the planet, so you can find examples of anything.

To collect that, concentrate mainly on that and teach people that they will all suffer in the same way, is destroying their mental health and restricting them to live freely, buy and pay freely (cashless) or to travel (because of fear of biometric IDs) and to generally enjoy life and technological progress, because you make them to fear both near and distant future.

Click to expand...

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Do you all believe this? So why do you fear? Why would anyone with the Spirit of power,love and sound mind be in fear?

Douggg said:

Futurism is not an "ideology". It is an eschatological view regarding the end times prophecies in the bible.

Click to expand...

In a practical, real life, its more an ideology than just a view.

Christian Gedge said:

Your experiences are real but I would not deny people entry to the forum. Internet forums have done much to provide a platform for rebutting heresy. More people are beginning to turn away from dispensational futurism than would’ve happened if we had written 1000 books. My suggestion to you is that you use your testimony on the forum to help people realise the falseness of this doctrine.

Click to expand...

I do not deny anybody entry to any forum, I am for as much freedom as possible. It was just a muse (maybe not the right English word) why something so harmful is left to continue while something else is not allowed just because its not present in some old creed.

But you are right, opinions should not be banned. If it sounded like that, I apologize.

But in the minimum, I would protect children in families or in churches from it till they develop to a normal healthy person. Then and not earlier I would present them this horrible theological view that they will be thrown to lions alive or suffer in some other horrible way just because they were grown as Christians by their parents (or because they are genetical Jews).

Handmaid for Jesus said:

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Do you all believe this? So why do you fear? Why would anyone with the Spirit of power,love and sound mind be in fear?

Click to expand...

When you are exposed to something as a child, it goes with you, subconciously, even if you rationally know that its a nonsense. And it can lead to some disorder in the later life. For example to paranoia, anxiety, depression or OCD.

You will also have statistically much higher chance to be an alcoholic or on drugs and to be generally unhappy.

myst33 said:

When you are exposed to something as a child, it goes with you, subconciously, even if you rationally know that its a nonsense. And it can lead to some disorder in the later life. For example to paranoia, anxiety, depression or OCD.

You will also have statistically much higher chance to be an alcoholic or on drugs and to be generally unhappy.

Click to expand...

As a child I was told that Jesus was coming back.I have been expecting Him to return all of my life. It has not kept me from living and loving. Instead, I have hope that He will come in my lifetime. It is not nonsense to me. I am sorry that it is nonsense to you.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

As a child I was told that Jesus was coming back.I have been expecting Him to return all of my life. It has not kept me from living and loving. Instead, I have hope that He will come in my lifetime. It is not nonsense to me. I am sorry that it is nonsense to you.

Click to expand...

I think you have not read my posts properly. I never said that the simple claim "Jesus will come back" is the problem.

myst33 said:

But in the minimum, I would protect children in families or in churches from it till they develop to a normal healthy person. Then and not earlier I would present them this horrible theological view that they will be thrown to lions alive or suffer in some other horrible way just because they were grown as Christians by their parents (or because they are genetical Jews).

Click to expand...

It is the responsibility of the church organizations to build up the congregation with the fundamental long term value that Jesus helps us in our walk in this life. A sense of taking the pressure off, and having peace in Jesus.

Unfortunately in practice the reverse often takes place and the congregation feels beat up after Sunday's sermon - Sunday after Sunday. Pastors, I am talking to you.

eclipsenow said:

My concern is both that Amils don't get complacent and forget about THAT DAY - because it really could happen tonight - and that futurists don't get the symptoms described in the opening post and go and disillusion a bunch of younger people.

Also, another concern I should have listed.

I've noticed the following rule both in emotional involvement and in theological outcomes, but here goes.

The more futurist-focussed people are, the smaller the gospel gets or seems

This is a profoundly complicated subject involving eschatological tension applied to many different subjects, but here's one example. The temple. The theme of God living with us is promised in the OT, with shadows of it in the OT temple system - and then Jesus as the God - man becomes THE temple that would be destroyed and raised again in 3 days. The more futurists rave about the temple in the future - the less impressed they are about Jesus as temple in the gospel events and the church today as temple holding the gospel message of salvation now. That the focus could shift from Jesus death and resurrection to some future BUILDING with some futurists just outright astonishes me. But, in the confusion of the human heart and the mess the church is in today, I guess I should not be surprised.

The more futurist, the less gospel focussed...

Some futurists seem so bored by the gospel they seem to me to treat it as some boring background paper-work that has to be done to get to the GOOD STUFF - all those futurist timetables....

Click to expand...

The futurist are also literalist and the churches that teach the literal end also teach a literal Genesis and hold a high regard the whole of the Bible. The nearness of these events is a catalyst to serve the LORD now and share the gospel as you anticipate the days are short. My church has gone from about 500 to over 2500 sharing the gospel every week and teaching the end times as relevant and near as part of our core beliefs. We are not in fear but looking up for our redemption draws near and we are occupying until the LORD comes.

keras said:

I don't blame you for leaving that type of group.
But because they were wrong as is all the other weird and wonderful theories, like the fable of being whisked off to heaven, is no reason to dismiss the Prophesies which God has given mankind.

We know how the Prophesies about ancient Israel and of Jesus' first Advent literally did happen. The ones as yet unfulfilled, which is most of them; cannot be thought of as never happening. That belief brings the Bible into disrepute and makes it a book of much fiction.

Not being aware of what God has planned for the forthcoming end times, will make it hard for people.

Click to expand...

What some ppl tend to ignore or maybe think has already taken place somehow is what is recorded in Luke 21.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

This is clearly meaning after what is recorded in verse 20. This is in the end of this age context because the next verse mentions the following.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Verse 26 says---Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth

How can any reasonable person brush that off or think that won't mount to much of anything, thus nothing to really worry about though the text states---Men's hearts failing them for fear?

What is recorded in verse 25 and 26 is obviously meaning what is recorded in Matthew 24:29, and that Matthew 24:29 places these events immediately after the trib of those days. Obviously, the trib of those days are still ahead of us not already behind us since nothing like what is recorded in Luke 21:25-26 has ever immediately followed any alleged tribulation period yet.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Just ignore all this I guess.

Myst33, I understand very well the effect you are describing on young people and children raised with the basic pre-mil-disp teaching. This is what I was immersed in from infancy, and it most certainly had a detrimental effect on me. My parents were a most faithful, godly couple, and did their best to raise us according to what they presumed was truth on eschatology. I was an early, voracious reader, and even as a very young child, my father's Larkin book of end-time charts was fascinating for me personally, including his books on the spirit world and Bunyan's "Holy War" with the Devil attacking the city of Mansoul.

As a pre-teen, I remember once being left alone in the car while my mom shopped for Christmas presents for the entire family. It turned into several hours of sitting alone, waiting in front of the store. So long, that in my panicked mind I became convinced that the rapture had taken place, and that I was now "left behind" with no way to get home, and no parents at home to take care of me, even if I were able to finally get there. I frantically searched through the glove box for the tracts that my parents kept there, going over the prayer for salvation again, just in case I hadn't said the "right words" the first time.

For an impressionable young person, this is sheer trauma, and is a natural result of where some of this pre-mil-disp. teaching leads. I had nightmares where I dreamed of myself being "left behind" on the ground to experience the horrors of a wicked world going crazy, while the rest of my family went sailing off into the sky to heaven without me. If I had only known then what I know now based on Preterist teaching, it would have relieved a great deal of unnecessary angst for me as a very young, immature Christian child, who was just believing whatever I was told.

eclipsenow said:

My concern is both that Amils don't get complacent and forget about THAT DAY - because it really could happen tonight

Click to expand...

If by that you are meaning the 2nd coming, that is total nonsense since it makes Jesus out to be a liar if He predicted certain events have to happen first before He returns. The post I just presented in this thread, none of those things have happened yet, in any sense. If you are meaning something else by THAT DAY, well you lost me then because I have no clue what you are meaning in that case. Only a Pretribber could think Jesus could return at anytime, today even. Except you nor any Amils are Pretribbers, though.

DavidPT said:

Just ignore all this I guess

Click to expand...

No, DavidPT - don't ignore those events of Luke 21 - but place them in their correct position on the timeline. Christ told His disciples just WHEN all that list of things would happen. He told them that every single one of those events, INCLUDING HIS RETURN, were soon to happen for them.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36). This included EVERYTHING Christ listed, from Luke 21:8-35.

Yes, in the years leading up to the AD 70 return of Christ, there were indeed "signs in the sun and the moon and the stars" etc., in a literal sense as well as a symbolic one. The prediction that the "powers of heaven will be shaken" was the Satanic realm being shaken - so that what was shaken would be removed, as Hebrews 12:26 promised was "NOW" going to happen in those days.

3 Resurrections said:

No, DavidPT - don't ignore those events of Luke 21 - but place them in their correct position on the timeline. Christ told His disciples just WHEN all that list of things would happen. He told them that every single one of those events, INCLUDING HIS RETURN, were soon to happen for them.

"Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape ALL THESE THINGS that are ABOUT TO COME TO PASS, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luke 21:36). This included EVERYTHING Christ listed, from Luke 21:8-35.

Yes, in the years leading up to the AD 70 return of Christ, there were indeed "signs in the sun and the moon and the stars", in a literal sense as well as a symbolic one. The prediction that the "powers of heaven will be shaken" was the Satanic realm being shaken - so that what was shaken would be removed, as Hebrews 12:26 promised was "NOW" going to happen in those days.

Click to expand...

I don't which is worse over all, a Preterist mindset or a Pretrib mindset, in regards to some of the things Jesus predicted in the Discourse? I don't agree with neither. What Jesus predicted in the Discourse doesn't just involve events having to do with 2000 years ago nor does it just involve events having to do with the end of this age. It involves both time periods. In Luke 21 verse 20 is involving events pertaining to 2000 years ago. As of verse 24 it is involving events after that time period, which include events involving the end of this age. That's where Matthew 24:15 and what follows fits, not during verse 20 in Luke 21 instead.

Well to those who think it is nonsense...Lord Jesus is coming. Maybe today!

eclipsenow said:

Could be in 5 seconds or 50,000 years - we just don't know!


No he didn't - he said it would be unknowable, like the Days of Noah, and like a master catching his evil servants unprepared, like the groom catching the maidens without their oil, and so many other images and metaphors for people being completely surprised by when the Lord would return.

Click to expand...

His actual/physical return no , which is why we need our lamps full of oil ( be ready). But he surely gave the signs of that age, the age we speak of where great tribulation happens. First come the birth pangs followed by a sense of peace under the antichrist then real trouble. Either that or the book of Matthew is a lie.
Matthew 24:3-14

English Standard Version

Signs of the End of the Age
3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall awaya]">[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So we don't know the day or the hour but we have the description of the time . And more written in many other portions of scripture.