A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

Paidiske · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
The Anglican Church allows for other views?

Sure. We do not prescribe one particular take on the atonement as the "one right answer."

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

I know that this is a personal problem of mine, but I grew up with some very emotionally scary people that affects how I see God. So, I find comfort in the idea that God isn't going to shift on me.

Paidiske said:
I suspect that when we weigh the idea of God as persons with real emotional/affective attributes, against immutability, immutability is not supposed to so outweigh the former that we decide God cannot truly grieve, or rejoice, or (whatever emotional state). Not least because Scripture is very clear that God does indeed have a rich emotional life.

I realise that saying such a thing might raise concerns about patripassianism, but classic patripassianism is a narrower thing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity, and doesn't (as far as I can see) rule out God having an emotional life at all.

Paidiske · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I know that this is a personal problem of mine, but I grew up with some very emotionally scary people that affects how I see God. So, I find comfort in the idea that God isn't going to shift on me.

I can completely understand that. Truly.

But I think that holding to God's righteousness and his faithfulness mean that God having emotions need not be a threat.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
The idea that God the Father needed to punish the eternal Son of the Father is NOT a Catholic idea. The whole 'punishment' thing with respect to the redeeming work of Jesus is alien. It may be an offshoot of Anselmian theology, but I'm doubting it is simple Anselmianism. Jesus saved us by a sweet smelling oblation, an act of obedience, something pleasing to the Father. And our coming around, our putting on Christ, is also an act of obedience. Sure, the wages of sin is death. Sure we have earned the 'punishment' of eternal alienation from God by our own choices. But our coming to Christ doesn't mean Jesus paid the price in being even briefly damned for our sake. That's Calvinism, or a subset of Calvinism. Jesus paid the price in obedience and God was pleased with Jesus. Not hating on Jesus. And not hating on us either. Actually not even hating on sinners but loving them even in their freedom to be alienated from Him.

Not sure. I don't get in to Marian apparitions so much. Really only Akita, which is scary enough for me without going farther. But even there, the idea would be to be faithful. We do a lot of reparations for the evil that is done in the world but at some point I expect evil to overwhelm the world and then God may step in to shorten the anguish of the saints. But who knows. Be faithful. Pray. Watch.

If Penal Substitution isn't Catholic, how do the sacrifices we make repair the world? For example the children at Fatima would tie robes around their waists and refuse to eat in order to save sinners from hell.

Michie · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
If Penal Substitution isn't Catholic, how do the sacrifices we make repair the world? For example the children at Fatima would tie robes around their waists and refuse to eat in order to save sinners from hell.

It’s called offering it up in union with the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

How so? I mean, if we acknowledge that God can get wrathful in a context of a permanent hell, then his wrath loses all of its love and correction.

Paidiske said:
I can completely understand that. Truly.

But I think that holding to God's righteousness and his faithfulness mean that God having emotions need not be a threat.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

Michie said:
It’s called offering it up in union with the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus.

I don't wish to appease an angry Father with Jesus.

Michie · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I don't wish to appease an angry Father with Jesus.

You don’t have to. It voluntarily done by certain people that desire to do so.

From the CCC

The cross is the unique sacrifice of Christ, the “one mediator between God and men” [1 Timothy 2:5]. But because in his incarnate divine person he has in some way united himself to every man, “the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery” is offered to all men (618).

Paidiske · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
How so? I mean, if we acknowledge that God can get wrathful in a context of a permanent hell, then his wrath loses all of its love and correction.

Hmm. I guess I don't really see permanent hell as being about God's wrath, as much as being about our refusal to respond to God's love.

I get that the idea of an angry God can be truly frightful, though. But on the other hand, when God is angry with injustice, when God is angry with human evil, when God is angry with oppression and exploitation... maybe there is something comforting about a God who is truly moved by the plight of the victim...?

Michie · Nov 3, 2021

The rest-
That framework, in other words, is the mystery of redemptive suffering. Christ makes us — members of his Mystical Body — participants in that redemptive self-offering of Christ our head. St. Paul left the Church a vivid and poignant understanding of just what that means when he insisted:

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ on behalf of his body, which is the church (Colossians 1:24).

And St. John Paul II summed up the relationship between Christ’s redemptive sacrifice and our mysterious participation in it with these words:

In bringing about the Redemption through suffering, Christ has also raised human suffering to the level of the Redemption. Thus each man, in his suffering, can also become a sharer in the redemptive suffering of Christ (Salvifici Doloris, 19).

In most of her apparitions, particularly at Fatima, Our Lady also has repeatedly reminded us of this mysterious participation in redemptive suffering. The three visionaries of Fatima received her message as a call, in part, to live the rest of their lives finding frequent opportunities to offer acts of reparation for sinners.

The Church has long recognized that some of the baptized are invited mysteriously to a veritable vocation of redemptive suffering in a very high degree. We often refer to these privileged individuals as “victim souls.” They have even at times been blessed with mystical phenomena such as the stigmata (the wounds of Christ) or living for years solely on the Eucharist. Saints such as Padre Pio and Sr. Faustina Kowalska come to mind.

Normally, however, our Lord seems to delight in our generous “offering up” of the lesser daily trials he permits in our lives. The Daily Offering prayer captures what should be ideally our habitual attitude of offering the “prayers, works, joys, and sufferings of this day in union with the holy sacrifice of the Mass throughout the world.” To live with that attitude is something beautiful in God’s eyes. Catholic priests, I might add, called as they are to be agents of penance, reparation, and expiation and instruments of Divine Mercy, are particularly responsible for being living examples of such an attitude. A readiness to offer up sacrifices is the best antidote to a mentality of complaining, irritability, negativity, and cynicism.

In fact, it is possible over time with God’s grace to embrace — even with joy — the unpleasant surprises, setbacks, apparent failures, frustrations, and hurts that come our way precisely because we experience how profoundly God can work in and through them for our good and the good of the Church. By offering these things up, uniting them to the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus, we trust that God the Father mysteriously brings about some good somewhere in the Mystical Body as a fruit of our generous offering. Yet we benefit as well, as he simultaneously turns our sufferings, big or small, into opportunities for personal growth and holiness.

What does it really mean to 'offer it up'? - Catholic Digest

Albion · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I mean, if we acknowledge that God can get wrathful in a context of a permanent hell, then his wrath loses all of its love and correction.

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I don't wish to appease an angry Father with Jesus.

I don't want to interrupt, but a little while ago didn't you say you were uncertain whether you leaned more towards Orthodoxy or towards Lutheranism? It looks from here like it's the latter.

Michie · Nov 3, 2021

HOW DO WE AVOID HELL?

Other than knowing that Hell is real, the best thing to know about Hell is that Hell is a decision. God makes no one love Him or hate Him. He has chosen to freely love us so that we might freely choose to love Him. Inasmuch as God has never sent anyone to Hell, many a soul have freely chosen, through their actions, to reject the love of God and separate themselves from Him in this life and, consequently, in the next.

Indeed, God is truly pro-choice and pro-life, because He desires nothing more than for us to make the right choices with this free gift that He has given us so that we might have true life with Him now on earth and later in Heaven. Nevertheless, whether we end up in Heaven or Hell, God’s desire for us will have been achieved; that is, both the souls in Heaven and in Hell have come to the knowledge of truth – that God is real and He loves us (1 Tim 2:4).

But for now, know this; that God is actively in the process at this very instant of doing all that He can to get us to Heaven to dwell in joyous bliss with Him for eternity. He has made and is making every possible grace available to us for us to be happy in this life and in the next. He even went so far as sending us His only begotten and beloved Son to not only show how to live this life but to make living this life in virtue possible, through His death and resurrection. Therefore, to avoid Hell and to arrive in Heaven we must Cooperate with God through those graces and helps that He made available through Christ Jesus, namely prayer and the Sacraments of the Church, the chief of which are Baptism, Penance & Reconciliation, and the Holy Eucharist.

Remember friends, just as God is doing everything that He can to help us make the right choices in this life that lead to eternal life with Him, Satan, the adversary, is doing everything in his power to tempt us into making bad decisions, the kind of decisions that reveal us to be enemies of God and worthy of Hell. Therefore, if you truly desire God and Heaven, then reject Satan and all his pomp and lies in the name of Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God immediately turn from evil at all times and pursue virtue.

Of the many pleasures in this life for us to have, there is no sinful pleasure or choice that is worth spending eternity in Hell for. Indeed, just as Hell is a decision, so is Heaven a decision, and there is nothing in this life more important to fight for than eternal life with God – anything less would be Hell.

Continued below.
The Reasonableness of Hell, and How to Avoid it | DavidLGray.INFO

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

True. But I always felt like the perpetrator. I have bourn (sp?) the blame for much in life. Forgiveness was something I earned as I proved I could do better. Sometimes there was nothing I could do. I lost biological father and spiritual mother this way. They ran out of love. My s. mother consigned a plethora of sin to me and wouldn't restore me to grace.
This is why I don't trust people or God.
When I go to Church and confess that I am a poor miserable sinner deserving of eternal punishment and that it is for Christ's sake I am asking forgiveness, I can't help but be right back there with Dad and s. Mom.

Michie said:
From Jimmy Akin-
But for someone who makes an unbiased reading of the Scriptures, references to the Holy Spirit’s Personhood leap off the page. For example, Paul speaks of it being possible to grieve the Holy Spirit: “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption” (Eph. 4:30). Of course, it is not possible to offend or displease impersonal forces.

Paul speaks of the Holy Spirit as knowing the thoughts of God-indicating that the Spirit has an intellect: “For what person knows a man’s thoughts except the spirit of the man which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God” (1 Cor. 2:11).

He also speaks of the Holy Spirit exercising the faculty of will, as in the distribution of spiritual gifts: “All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills” (1 Cor. 12:11).

Scripture also teaches that the Holy Spirit serves as a Paraclete (Greek parakletos) on our behalf. This term, often translated as “Comforter,” “Counselor,” “Advocate,” or “Helper,” refers to a person who is called or summoned to aid one, especially in legal settings, where he serves as an advisor, or advocate for the accused.

Jesus repeatedly speaks of the Holy Spirit as a Paraclete whom he will send to help us: “The Advocate [parakletos], the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name-he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you” (John 14:26; cf. 15:26, 16:7-8).

A facet of the Greek text not obvious in translation is that in the three verses just mentioned (and others), Jesus applies the masculine pronoun ekeinos to the Holy Spirit. The personal character of a paraclete is further illustrated by the fact that Jesus also serves as our Paraclete before the Father: “My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an Advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous” (1 John 2:1)

There are also many passages in Scripture that refer to the Holy Spirit communicating with us-again, something an impersonal force cannot do. For example, when testifying before the Sanhedrin, the apostles refer to the Holy Spirit as their co-witness: “And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey him” (Acts 5:32). Later in Acts, Paul states that the Holy Spirit testifies: “The Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me” (Acts 20:23).

This testimony sometimes came from the mouths of New Testament prophets who attributed the words directly to the Holy Spirit: “And coming to us he took Paul’s girdle and bound his own feet and hands, and said, ‘Thus says the Holy Spirit, “So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man who owns this girdle and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles”‘” (Acts 21:11; cf. 1 Tim. 4:1). Note the formula “Thus says the Holy Spirit” is modeled on the frequent prophetic formula “Thus says the Lord”-indicating not only the Spirit’s Personhood but also directly equating him with Yahweh.

Sometimes even the biblical books’ narrative directly quotes the Holy Spirit. In Revelation we read, “And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord henceforth.’ ‘Blessed indeed,’ says the Spirit, ‘that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!'” (Rev. 14:13).

If it were objected that this quotation is found in a book of prophecy, which often uses figurative language, the topper is Acts 13:2:”While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, ‘Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.'”

The doctrinal force of this passage is unavoidable. Here we have a direct quotation of the Holy Spirit-not in a prophetic book, not in the mouth of a prophet, not in a parable, not told by a character in a historical book. We have the Holy Spirit directly quoted by the narrative of a historical book-just like the other real persons who speak in the book. And the same thing happens in Acts 8:29 and 10:19.

Even if one tried to explain away all of Scripture’s other personal references to the Holy Spirit as somehow being symbols or figures of speech, the direct quotation of an individual in the narrative of a historical book unmistakably shows that the individual in question is a real, literal person, not just a force or symbol.

Third Person of the Trinity

Permission to post in full.

Paidiske said:
Hmm. I guess I don't really see permanent hell as being about God's wrath, as much as being about our refusal to respond to God's love.

I get that the idea of an angry God can be truly frightful, though. But on the other hand, when God is angry with injustice, when God is angry with human evil, when God is angry with oppression and exploitation... maybe there is something comforting about a God who is truly moved by the plight of the victim...?

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

Lutheranism isn't at all comforting in this regard. I'll post a hymn as an example in a little bit.

Albion said:
I don't want to interrupt, but a little while ago didn't you say you were uncertain whether you leaned more towards Orthodoxy or towards Lutheranism? It looks from here like it's the latter.

Albion · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
Lutheranism isn't at all comforting in this regard. I'll post a hymn as an example in a little bit.

Was feeling comforted the goal (the deciding factor)??

Michie · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
True. But I always felt like the perpetrator. I have bourn (sp?) the blame for much in life. Forgiveness was something I earn as I proved I could do better. Sometimes there was nothing I could do. I lost biological father and spiritual mother this way. They ran out of love. My s. mother consigned a plethora of sin to me and wouldn't restore me to grace.
This is why I don't trust people or God.
When I go to Church and confess that I am a poor miserable sinner deserving of eternal punishment and that it is for Christ's sake I am asking forgiveness, I can't help but be right back there with Dad and s. Mom.

Well that’s something you may have to work through with professional help. There are all sorts in the world and they can leave scars on others but it is up to us to stop comparing God with those that hurt you. It’s tough but it can be done.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

Albion said:
Was feeling comforted the goal (the deciding factor)??

I haven't chose Lutheranism. I'm still deciding. I just attend a Lutheran church for now (but do not commune). I go bc I like the people there.

Albion · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
I haven't chose Lutheranism. I'm still deciding. I just attend a Lutheran church for now (but do not commune). I go bc I like the people there.

The decision is yours of course but I was just reminded of the question as I read the most recent messages. However, I messed up the reply. It was Orthodoxy, not Lutheranism, that I thought I was detecting in your comments. Sorry. My best to you in any case as you sort things out.

Thatgirloncfforums · Nov 3, 2021

I have tried but human language being what it is....I mean how am I suppose to differentiate human emotions from God's, or humans casting us off and God? Except that God is perfect. Ok, I am unperfect. God is just to behave the way he does. Ok, but I am unjust and a sinner. It doesn't help.

Michie said:
Well that’s something you may have to work through with professional help. There are all sorts in the world and they can leave scars on others but it is up to us to stop comparing God with those that hurt you. It’s tough but it can be done.

Paidiske · Nov 3, 2021

Thatgirloncfforums said:
True. But I always felt like the perpetrator. I have bourn (sp?) the blame for much in life. Forgiveness was something I earned as I proved I could do better. Sometimes there was nothing I could do. I lost biological father and spiritual mother this way. They ran out of love. My s. mother consigned a plethora of sin to me and wouldn't restore me to grace.
This is why I don't trust people or God.
When I go to Church and confess that I am a poor miserable sinner deserving of eternal punishment and that it is for Christ's sake I am asking forgiveness, I can't help but be right back there with Dad and s. Mom.

For those of us who've been through trauma and abuse (and consigning sin to you without grace is spiritual abuse, by the way), it's not unusual for some of the traditional ideas, images and language of Christianity to be deeply problematic or even retraumatising.

It's quite common to need to find alternative ways of expressing things which doesn't reflect the dynamics of the trauma and abuse.

It may be that the liturgy of the current church is not helpful to you right now. It may even be that any conventional liturgy is likely to be unhelpful, at least at times. That's okay, and there are other resources that you could explore as you heal and grow (because where you are now, is not the end of your story, either).

A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

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