I am not ashamed of the gospel...

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New Testament Christian

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I don’t see Paul mentioning baptism anywhere in the chapter my friend. What I see in this passage is that the gospel has the power to elicit a response in an individual bringing them to repentance and belief. Baptism occurs after this takes place, not typically before.

BNR32FAN, every verse DerSchweik used in his copied post is water baptism not Holy Spirit baptism.

Look up the Greek word baptizo. Every verse Derschweik used uses the Greek word baptizo. Baptizo is never used for Holy Spirit baptism only water baptism.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Guojing ,like many faith alone gospel followers must ignore Paul's own teaching on faith that saves.

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

Paul teaches saving faith does include works.

Paul says these works are from love of Jesus.

Makes compete since. Our motivation to work comes from a love of our Saviour and love for others souls.

The Biblical faith Paul taught was never alone. It was always with works. Just as James taught.

Personally I don’t think it’s the works that are taken into consideration but instead the love from which they are derived. Notice in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul mentions works without love that profits him nothing.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

By this I would conclude that even faith with works without love is still an incomplete formula for salvation. But I believe that faith with love without works is sufficient for salvation you just probably wouldn’t have very much treasure in heaven.
 
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New Testament Christian

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Personally I don’t think it’s the works that are taken into consideration but instead the love from which they are derived. Notice in 1 Corinthians 13 Paul mentions works without love that profits him nothing.

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

By this I would conclude that even faith with works without love is still an incomplete formula for salvation. But I believe that faith with love without works is sufficient for salvation you just probably wouldn’t have very much treasure in heaven.

Sir, I will let Paul explain saving faith for me. I don't want my think so's, to get in the way of what Paul said,

Galatians 5:6...faith working through love.

Paul said our works come from love. We cannot seperate the two and be scripturally correct. To do so is to teach a different message than what Paul taught.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me, and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

Jesus taught the same as Paul.

Love of God is doing the works that God has commanded us.

Commandment keeping always requires works on our part.

We do these works through love of our Savior.
 
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BNR32FAN

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BNR32FAN, every verse DerSchweik used in his copied post is water baptism not Holy Spirit baptism.

Look up the Greek word baptizo. Every verse Derschweik used uses the Greek word baptizo. Baptizo is never used for Holy Spirit baptism only water baptism.

I see the same word being used in Matthew 3:11, Acts 1:5, and many other places throughout the scriptures. The different forms of the word indicate different usages like baptize, baptized, will baptize, having baptized, when he baptized, etc.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Sir, I will let Paul explain saving faith for me. I don't want my think so's, to get in the way of what Paul said,

Galatians 5:6...faith working through love.

Paul said our works come from love. We cannot seperate the two and be scripturally correct. To do so is to teach a different message than what Paul taught.

Paraplegic laying in a hospital bed who has faith and love can’t be saved?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Sir, I will let Paul explain saving faith for me. I don't want my think so's, to get in the way of what Paul said,

Galatians 5:6...faith working through love.

Paul said our works come from love. We cannot seperate the two and be scripturally correct. To do so is to teach a different message than what Paul taught.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me, and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

Jesus taught the same as Paul.

Love of God is doing the works that God has commanded us.

Commandment keeping always requires works on our part.

We do these works through love of our Savior.

Ok but don’t rule out what he said in Ephesians 2:8-9 as well. We have to take that into consideration as well.
 
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New Testament Christian

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Paraplegic laying in a hospital bed who has faith and love can’t be saved?
Sure they can be saved! Where did you get the idea they couldn't?

I have heard from members of the church tell me folks dying in hospice have been water baptized.

God will not hold you accountable to a command that you have been physically hindered from.

For instance if a mute wants to obey the gospel. He cannot speak from his own mouth, the command Paul gave in Romans 10:9-10. And we see the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunich, obeying this command by saying with his own mouth, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Acts 8:37-38.

God will not hold a mute accountable to confess his faith in Christ with his mouth. God expects you to obey when you're not physically hindered to do so.

I see God accepting a mute to write his confession of faith in Jesus on paper or similar to show others his faith in
Christ, just as Jesus commands, Matthew 10:32-33.

If a person is taught the gospel on their death bed and because of physical restraints or the hospital refuses the patient the privilege to be water baptized. God will still save them. Why?

Because it is all about your desire!

If you have 100% giving your life to Christ have zero rebellion to obey His gospel. You have the right mindset to be saved. A willingness to submit everything in your life to Christ.

Those who cannot be saved are ones who have no hindrance to being water baptized but simply rebel against Jesus and refuse to submit to His wiil/gospel.

Big difference!
 
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New Testament Christian

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Ok but don’t rule out what he said in Ephesians 2:8-9 as well. We have to take that into consideration as well.
Friend, Paul does not contradict himself.

Epheasians 2:8-9 , is one of the most misused and misunderstood passages in the new testament.

The works Paul is speaking of is the works of the law of Moses in Epheasians 2:8-9.

These works of the law of Moses cannot save!

Read verse 10 of Epheasians chapter 2,
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul always taught saving faith includes works of Obedience through love of Jesus Christ.
 
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New Testament Christian

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This is my favorite statement made on Christian forums:

Quote from BNR32FAN "So many people allow their doctrines to define the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to define their doctrines"

Truer words have never been spoken. Right on, right on, right on!!!
 
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BNR32FAN

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Sure they can be saved! Where did you get the idea they couldn't?

I have heard from members of the church tell me folks dying in hospice have been water baptized.

God will not hold you accountable to a command that you have been physically hindered from.

For instance if a mute wants to obey the gospel. He cannot speak from his own mouth, the command Paul gave in Romans 10:9-10. And we see the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunich, obeying this command by saying with his own mouth, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, Acts 8:37-38.

God will not hold a mute accountable to confess his faith in Christ with his mouth. God expects you to obey when you're not physically hindered to do so.

I see God accepting a mute to write his confession of faith in Jesus on paper or similar to show others his faith in
Christ, just as Jesus commands, Matthew 10:32-33.

If a person is taught the gospel on their death bed and because of physical restraints or the hospital refuses the patient the privilege to be water baptized. God will still save them. Why?

Because it is all about your desire!

If you have 100% giving your life to Christ have zero rebellion to obey His gospel. You have the right mindset to be saved. A willingness to submit everything in your life to Christ.

Those who cannot be saved are ones who have no hindrance to being water baptized but simply rebel against Jesus and refuse to submit to His wiil/gospel.

Big difference!

Amen it’s about the desire to do God’s will not the actions themselves that took place but the motivation behind those actions.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Friend, Paul does not contradict himself.

Epheasians 2:8-9 , is one of the most misused and misunderstood passages in the new testament.

The works Paul is speaking of is the works of the law of Moses in Epheasians 2:8-9.

These works of the law of Moses cannot save!

Read verse 10 of Epheasians chapter 2,
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul always taught saving faith includes works of Obedience through love of Jesus Christ.

I politely disagree, there’s no mention of the Mosaic law to these Gentiles and his reference in verse 10 specifically mentions the good works he was referring to in verse 9. What Paul is saying is that we cannot boast on our good works because we are God’s workmanship, He has set these works before us thru the Holy Spirit. They are not of ourselves.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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BNR32FAN

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This is my favorite statement made on Christian forums:

Quote from BNR32FAN "So many people allow their doctrines to define the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to define their doctrines"

Truer words have never been spoken. Right on, right on, right on!!!

Thanks :oldthumbsup:
 
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New Testament Christian

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Amen it’s about the desire to do God’s will not the actions themselves that took place but the motivation behind those actions.

The desire must be to submit to Jesus.

If a person submits his life to Christ, then he will do the actions( obedience) required.

The actions (obedient works) prove the persons mindset to be completely humble and a willing servant to Christ.

A person can say I am willing to follow Jesus but without obeying His commandments are just giving lip ,service.

The actions prove where the persons motives are coming from.

You can a person "going through the motions" and it not being for the right reasons.

But you can never have a person not doing the commandments of Jesus like being baptized for the forgiveness of sins and have a sincere heart desiring to obey God.

So, the belief and the action(obedience) is what true saving faith is. Those who desire to be saved will obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Christ will not except someone who claims to desire to submit all to Christ but will not do the obedient works that Jesus commands. The works are the conditions that must be met to be saved by Jesus.

The gospel of Jesus Christ has conditions.

Examples:

You must obey the command to believe. Or you will not be saved.

You must repent of your sins. Or you will not be saved

You must publicly confess Jesus is God, the Son of God. Or you will not be saved.

You must be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins. Or you will not be saved.

You must remain faithfull to Christ as long as you live. Or you will not stay saved.

You must do all these obedient works out of love for Jesus(motivation/desire). Or you will not be saved.

You cannot remove works out of Jesus' gospel and be saved. That is not the true gospel we find in the
Bible.
 
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renniks

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"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16

I've been a Christian nearly 40 years now. It occurred to me how focused I tend to be, perhaps we tend to be, on the subject of baptism - as if baptism is what defines us as Christians. I've come to realize how apologetic I've been, not wanting to offend others, not wanting to disturb others or somehow cause them to stumble, not wanting to be judgmental, etc. etc. etc. etc.... by preaching and teaching baptism.

But then it occurred to me that this seemingly undue emphasis on baptism has been more defensive than anything else - a function of contemporary condemnation and castigation of Christian baptism - denial that's been occurring since the late first century, heretics who denied Christian baptism, heretics denounced by the likes of Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus, et. al. who stood up for Christian baptism.

20 centuries later however, the heresies attacking the early church are still with us today - in fact in greater force, subtlety, and efficacy that only the passage of 2,000 years can explain.

I think I (we?) focus on baptism so much because the devil and his minions have been focusing so hard on denying it for so long - 2,000+ years long.
Why?
My only answer to that is, rightly or wrongly, I Cor 1:13 - "Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?" Paul used our identity in Christ to quell divisions in the Corinthian church - our identity in Christ on the basis of our baptism.

Get people to deny, object to, disavow, etc. the role of baptism in salvation and you defraud them of obtaining their true identity in Christ.

Because of this, I'm revisiting how I share my faith with others.

My brothers and sisters in Christ, my wife and I, me and my friends in Christ, rarely talk about baptism - we talk about Jesus, His Spirit, God, God's Word, what they're doing in our lives and the lives of those with whom we're sharing our faith, praying for, serving, etc. Baptism is something we all did, once, many years ago in most cases.

But in the face of such a powerful worldly denial of Christian baptism - we're being driven to talking more about it now because in the attack on our identity in Christ, we're being renewed in our understanding that...

We receive forgiveness of sins after… repenting and being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We receive the gift of the Holy Spirit… after being baptized (Acts 2:38)
We’re “added” [to the church] after being baptized (Acts 2:41)
We’re “judged faithful” [obedient] after being baptized (Acts 16:15)
We’re “in Christ Jesus” having been baptized (Rom 6:3)
We’re baptized into His Death, it is in baptism where we’ve been crucified with Him (Rom 6:3, Gal 2:20)
We’ve been buried with Him in baptism (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12)
We’ll be raised from the dead, as Christ was, because of our baptism (Rom 6:4)
We’ve “clothed ourselves with Christ” in baptism (Gal 3:27)

Having heard, penitent, sins forgiven, Holy Spirit received, to the church added, judged faithful, in Christ, crucified with Him, died, buried, to be raised as He was, clothed with Him – in baptism.

In a very real sense, baptism IS the gospel - and I refuse to be ashamed of that any more.
It's been my experience that those who focus too much on the water are putting outward signs ahead of inward change. Getting dunked doesn't do anything for the person who hasn't already accepted Christ. Theres a danger here of people thinking they can get to heaven by works.
 
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New Testament Christian

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It's been my experience that those who focus too much on the water are putting outward signs ahead of inward change. Getting dunked doesn't do anything for the person who hasn't already accepted Christ. Theres a danger here of people thinking they can get to heaven by works.
I agree that the water alone does nothing.

But let me ask you this, If a person does not get water baptized can that person be saved?
 
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I politely disagree, there’s no mention of the Mosaic law to these Gentiles and his reference in verse 10 specifically mentions the good works he was referring to in verse 9. What Paul is saying is that we cannot boast on our good works because we are God’s workmanship, He has set these works before us thru the Holy Spirit. They are not of ourselves.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:8-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul being a jew knew well that Jews boasted in themselves for keeping the law of Moses.

Many Jews believed if they did enough works of the law of Moses they would be saved. Even though Christ had come with a new covenant a new will and testament, a new gospel of salvation.

Even Jews early on that had believed Peter's preaching in Acts 2. They still did not fully understand that the old law of Moses was completely done away.

Paul had to teach Christian Jews not to keep practicing the law of Moses. These Christian Jews even tried to get converted Christian gentiles to do works of the law of Moses by being circumcised.

Paul preached against these works of the law of Moses in Romans, Galatians, Epheasians, Hebrews etc.

This belief that working the old law saves caused jews to boast. Paul had to teach them no one can boast of their own works because works of the law of Moses cannot save.

Paul did believe that obeying the commandments in the new covenant, Jesus' gospel did save.

These works that must be done in the gospel of Jesus Christ do play a part in our salvation but they do not make one boast. Because they are not meritorious, they do not earn ones salvation.

Epheasians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves(
we would boast if our works earned our salvation) It is of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Verse 10
For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul teaches we cannot boast about our works because our works cannot earn salvation.

The next verse Paul says we are created to do good works.

Paul does believe works are involved in our salvation. But that our works cannot earn salvation. There not meritorious.

The Bible teaches obedience to Jesus' gospel are works that God requires of us,

Believing in Jesus Christ is a requirement to be saved. Belief is a command, we must obey this command. When we obey this command we have done an obedient work.

This work must be done in order to be saved, thus works are involved in our salvation but they do not earn our salvation. As the Jews mistakenly made when keeping the law of Moses.

1John 3:23-24
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.





 
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renniks

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New Testament Christian

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Yes. There's nowhere that says you can't be saved without water.

The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43) all were forgiven without baptism.
Every one of those examples you gave are before Christ's gospel came into effect.

Jesus had not died, buried and ressurected from the dead yet, when he forgave those folks.

Once Jesus' new testament came into effect after His death. Then all must be water baptized in order to be saved.

Hebrews 9:16-17
For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is in force AFTER MEN ARE DEAD, SINCE IT HAS NO POWER AT ALL WHILE THE TESTATOR LIVES.

Not one of those examples you gave had to obey Jesus gospel to be saved.

They could not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4

Because Jesus had not even risen from the dead!!!

How could they believe in the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ? They could not.

Why do you say nowhere is it taught water baptism is required to be saved?

Jesus required it in His gospel,
Mark 16:15-16
And He said to them, Go into all the world and preach the GOSPEL to every creature.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who is an unbeliever will be condemned.

 
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BNR32FAN

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The desire must be to submit to Jesus.

If a person submits his life to Christ, then he will do the actions( obedience) required.

The actions (obedient works) prove the persons mindset to be completely humble and a willing servant to Christ.

We don’t need to prove our heart’s intent to God, He already knows.
 
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We don’t need to prove our heart’s intent to God, He already knows.
Yes He does. And those who have the right heart will obey Gods commandments. They will obey Jesus' gospel.

Many will say they love Jesus but will not obey His gospel.

And there are those that will obey the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Which group do you think have the right heart?
 
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