Purgatory

bbbbbbb said:

What we are dealing with is the ability of certain individuals to recraft one of the less-significant passages from Augustine's writings to support a doctrine which came to full fruition long after his death.

It is a pity IMO that the RCC decided to turn its back on Augustine's monergism. Had they not done so, then there is a real possibility that Mr. Luther might not have departed the fold.

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Did Luther share Calvin's view on "double-predestination"? If so, I don't think Augustine ever went that far.

Regardless, perhaps you think that the Catholic Church is Arminian but that would be a misunderstanding.

Within Catholic theology the two big sides are the "Molinists" and the "Thomists" which resemble the Arminian / Calvinist debate in Protestant circles, without being exactly the same in either case. There is certainly room for concepts that are close to the Calvinist "unconditional election" within Catholic theology, while admittedly the Molinists appear to be in the current majority.

bbbbbbb said:

As you and I both know, Augustine never held any such views of Purgatory as were later defined by the chaps at Trent. You want to make an argument from silence. I rest my case. Purgatory is an invention of the RCC alone, and is foreign to all other branches of Christianity.

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This is complete nonsense. I literally quoted Trent for you, and showed you exactly where Augustine taught the same thing in his Sermon.

Sure, Augustine never taught your "straw-man" version of purgatory. You folks create a "straw-man" of what the Church "really taught" concerning purgatory, and then argue that we don't see the straw-man in the early church. But anyone can disprove a straw-man.

I gave you the dogmatic teaching set forth above in the paragraph quoted from Trent. And I gave you the Catechism. So you can keep your straw-man.

Fidelibus said:

Well, like I said before, the poster being a self proclaimed adherent of sola scriptura, Said that "He" (not sure if he was speaking of Jesus or St. John) say's that the 'written word' of God is the 'only' truth.

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I take that as him meaning not just only, but 'alone' as well, and I just wanted him to show as a sola scripturist where in the bible alone 'He' (Jesus or any writer of Scripture) says that the written word of God is the only truth.

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Then I would expect you to address that reply to him, not me. My post, as explained already, was directed at something else you wrote in that post.

Again, I am not a sola scripturist, he is. That meaning the bible contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it.

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Well, that's a completely incorrect rendering of the meaning of Sola Scriptura. So as they say, "Houston, we have a problem."

But doing that is common, if this provides any solace. It is almost routine on these forums to read Catholics criticizing Sola Scriptura based upon an incorrect understanding of Sola Scriptura. I find myself taking care with how I word my references to Sola Scriptura, especially in reply to a Catholic member, but it doesn't seem to make any difference. Just as I see in your reply here.

Swag365 said:

As for its similarity to hell or lack thereof, there have been differing opinions on that throughout the history of the Church, but I have no particular opinion on it. I believe that there is (i) hell, (ii) purgatory, and (iii) heaven, and that after my death I'll find myself in one of the three states. The particulars of each I don't spend a ton of time thinking about, although perhaps I should. For now it's enough for me to know that the third option is much better than the second, and that the second option is much better than the first, so I'll have faith in the Lord and try to live my life accordingly.

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Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

• Genesis 2:17 | God | Truth: thou shalt surely die.
• Genesis 3:4 | Serpent | Lie: Ye shall not surely die.

In John, Jesus Christ was confronting a particular group of evil pharisees.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father [originator] of it.

It is very interesting that Satan’s first recorded words in the bible are a lie, indicating his dominant nature.

Purgatory is based upon the serpent’s lie of life after death because punishment requires you to be alive. Otherwise, its purpose is defeated. Therefore, since God cannot be the author of purgatory,.

Job 21:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.

Psalms 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 49
12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them…

Psalms 89:48
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah [pause and consider this].

Psalms 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Major1 said:

Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

• Genesis 2:17 | God | Truth: thou shalt surely die.
• Genesis 3:4 | Serpent | Lie: Ye shall not surely die.

In John, Jesus Christ was confronting a particular group of evil pharisees.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father [originator] of it.

It is very interesting that Satan’s first recorded words in the bible are a lie, indicating his dominant nature.

Purgatory is based upon the serpent’s lie of life after death because punishment requires you to be alive. Otherwise, its purpose is defeated. Therefore, since God cannot be the author of purgatory,.

Job 21:13
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.

Psalms 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalms 49
12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them…

Psalms 89:48
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? Shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah [pause and consider this].

Psalms 146:4
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

I Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

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Too long. Didn't read.

Swag365 said:

Friend you do not even hold Sola Scriptura yourself. Your own beliefs demolish it. You hold many things as dogma that are not found in text of Sacred Scripture. A few examples:

1) That the book of James is the inspired word of God.

2) That the baptism of infants is proper, and that this baptism of infants saves.

3) That our Lord did not merely speak metaphorically when he said "This is my body".

The three beliefs noted above are a part of Sacred Tradition and you cannot produces any verses in the Bible that teach them. You simply refuse to admit that they are Sacred Tradition, and you object to Sacred Tradition only where it differs from the specific beliefs that you hold, which is hypocritical.

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Tradition of the Catholic church...YES. Sacred.....NO.

1. The book of James was included in the canon of Scriptures by the Catholic church. Since YOU believe the RCC is infallible, then your problem is with the RCC. I am amazed that you continue to challeange your own Catholic church's infallibility.

Since the time of the Reformation, the book of James has been controversial.

At one point in his career, Martin Luther famously stated, “St. James’s epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it” (German New Testament, “Preface,” 1522 ed.).
Luther removed this statement from later editions and even had good things to say about James.
Source: What’s Really Going on the Book of James? | Catholic Answers

2. There are NO Scriptures in the Bible that support "Infant" baptism.

3. John 6:63 .........
" It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life."
Some people believe that the bread and wine of communion are somehow transformed into Jesus’ actual flesh and blood, or that Jesus somehow imbues these substances with His real presence. These ideas, called transubstantiation (professed by the Catholic and Orthodox churches) and consubstantiation (held by Lutherans), ignore Jesus’ statement that “the flesh counts for nothing” (John 6:63). The majority of Protestants understand that Jesus was speaking metaphorically about His flesh and blood and hold that the bread and wine are symbolic of the spiritual bond created with Christ through faith.

Swag365 said:

Did Luther share Calvin's view on "double-predestination"? If so, I don't think Augustine ever went that far.

Regardless, perhaps you think that the Catholic Church is Arminian but that would be a misunderstanding.

Within Catholic theology the two big sides are the "Molinists" and the "Thomists" which resemble the Arminian / Calvinist debate in Protestant circles, without being exactly the same in either case. There is certainly room for concepts that are close to the Calvinist "unconditional election" within Catholic theology, while admittedly the Molinists appear to be in the current majority.

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I have never said that the RCC is Arminian. Jacob Arminius, as we all know, developed his soteriology much after the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent established synergism (which is peripherally related to Arminianism) as dogma. The RCC is synergistic in its soteriology.

Lutheran soteriology is not Calvinistic, as any Lutheran will tell you. Luther's soteriology was highly Augustinian. Molinism and Thomism are, indeed, two differing theologies within the one, unchanging Church. Molinism postdates the Council of Trent and was developed to counterbalance what some saw as problematic issues developed by Thomas Aquinas. The net result, as we both agree, is that Molinism (as a form of synergism) has been the soteriological model for the RCC for several centuries.

Swag365 said:

Too long. Didn't read.

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John 17:17.......
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Swag365 said:

As for its similarity to hell or lack thereof, there have been differing opinions on that throughout the history of the Church, but I have no particular opinion on it.

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However, for over 500 years, your church did teach that Purgatory was just like hell except for its duration. You know, the church that says it ''never changes??''

I believe that there is (i) hell, (ii) purgatory, and (iii) heaven, and that after my death I'll find myself in one of the three states.

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It will be either (ii) or (iii), according to the Catholic Church. And that's allegedly true for all of us.

Albion said:

However, for over 500 years, your church did. You know, the church that says it ''never changes??''

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Straw-man. There have always been differing views.

It will be either (ii) or (iii), according to the Catholic Church. And that's allegedly true for all of us.

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Sorry. I don't know what you mean here. Obviously the Catholic Church teaches that hell is an option.

Albion said:

However, for over 500 years, your church did. You know, the church that says it ''never changes??''


It will be either (ii) purgatory or (iii), according to the Catholic Church. And that's allegedly true for all of us.

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The thught occurs to me that if I am a Catholic and I think that when I dies I will be in either
1. Heaven
2. Hell
3. Purgatory

then there would be the question of whether or not that person was a Catholic at all. YOU are correct......
the RCC says it is........
#1 or #3.

Swag365 said:

Straw-man. There have always been differing views.

Sorry. I don't know what you mean here. Obviously the Catholic Church teaches that hell is an option.

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Hell is not an option for a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ my friend!

A born again believer KNOWS TODAY if he is going to heaven. Hell is not an option for the Christian.

Swag365 said:

This is complete nonsense. I literally quoted Trent for you, and showed you exactly where Augustine taught the same thing in his Sermon.

Sure, Augustine never taught your "straw-man" version of purgatory. You folks create a "straw-man" of what the Church "really taught" concerning purgatory, and then argue that we don't see the straw-man in the early church. But anyone can disprove a straw-man.

I gave you the dogmatic teaching set forth above in the paragraph quoted from Trent. And I gave you the Catechism. So you can keep your straw-man.

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Actually, I quoted Trent for your reading pleasure. You quoted Augustine for comparison which, unfortunately, fell completely flat. If you wish to consider the deliberations of the chaps at Trent to be a "straw-man" version of purgatory, I suppose you will find yourself outside the Tradition of your denomination. The CCC is merely a neatly parsed version of Trent which eliminates much of the details, leaving the door wide open to question the use of indulgences if, in actual fact, purgatory is nothing more than a mild case of the flu (as some, of course, have characterized the current pandemic).

bbbbbbb said:

I have never said that the RCC is Arminian. Jacob Arminius, as we all know, developed his soteriology much after the Council of Trent. The Council of Trent established synergism (which is peripherally related to Arminianism) as dogma. The RCC is synergistic in its soteriology.

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Well that's fair I think. Cooperation with God's grace is certainly required of man. He is not a robot or a puppet as in Calvinism.

Swag365 said:

Too long. Didn't read.

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Do you think that Maybe thats why you have not read the Bible either.

Swag365 said:

Well that's fair I think. Cooperation with God's grace is certainly required of man. He is not a robot or a puppet as in Calvinism.

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Agreed!

Major1 said:

Hell is not an option for a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ my friend!

A born again believer KNOWS TODAY if he is going to heaven. Hell is not an option for the Christian.

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Except for those Christians who once believed, fell, and are now atheists.

Let me guess your response: "They were never really saved in the first place" quoting 1 John 2?

Major1 said:

Do you think that Maybe thats why you have not read the Bible either.

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You read the Bible? Congratulations my friend. You did well.

Major1 said:

The thught occurs to me that if I am a Catholic and I think that when I dies I will be in either
1. Heaven
2. Hell
3. Purgatory

Click to expand...

then there would be the question of whether or not that person was a Catholic at all. YOU are correct......
the RCC says it is........
#1 or #3.

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No, it's #2 or #3. If you are heaven-bound, you must first spend time in Purgatory.

bbbbbbb said:

Actually, I quoted Trent for your reading pleasure. You quoted Augustine for comparison which, unfortunately, fell completely flat. If you wish to consider the deliberations of the chaps at Trent to be a "straw-man" version of purgatory, I suppose you will find yourself outside the Tradition of your denomination. The CCC is merely a neatly parsed version of Trent which eliminates much of the details, leaving the door wide open to question the use of indulgences if, in actual fact, purgatory is nothing more than a mild case of the flu (as some, of course, have characterized the current pandemic).

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No, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one. It's basically he said/she said at this point. A waste of time.