Do you know the God of CHRIST?

HowGullibleRU · Jul 18, 2021

He referred to his God many times- care for me to post them?

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 18, 2021

@HowGullibleRU : what is the intent of your question? You can't look that up yourself, or are you trying to set others in motion?

Ligurian · Jul 18, 2021

HowGullibleRU said:
He referred to his God many times- care for me to post them?

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Psalms 82:1 God stands in the assembly of gods; and in the midst of them will judge gods. 2 How long will ye judge unrighteously, and accept the persons of sinners? 3 Judge the orphan and poor: do justice to the low and needy. 4 Rescue the needy, and deliver the poor out of the hand of the sinner. 5 They know not, nor understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth shall be shaken. 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the Most High. 7 But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for Thou shalt inherit all nations.

Psalms 2:4 He that dwells in the heavens shall laugh them to scorn, and the Lord shall mock them. 5 Then shall He speak to them in His anger, and trouble them in His fury. 6 But I have been made king by Him on Sion His holy mountain, 7 declaring the ordinance of the Lord: the Lord said to Me, Thou art My Son, to-day have I begotten Thee. 8 Ask of Me, and I will give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession. 9 Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel.

Matthew 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call Him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto My Lord, Sit thou on My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool? 45 If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne.

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 18, 2021

Verses that refer to the God of Jesus:

John 20:17: (Jesus) I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.

Matthew 27:46 (Jesus) .. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

2 Col 11:31 (Paul) The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.

Ephesians 1:3 (Paul) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, ..

Ephesians 1:17 (Paul) .. that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, ..

Hebrews 10:5-7 / Psalm 40:6-8 (Messiah) .. I have come to do your will, O God ..

1 Peter 1:3 (Peter) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Rescued One · Jul 18, 2021

Titus 1
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;

Isaiah 43
10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Without the Spirit, you won't understand spiritual things.

There is only one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

BobRyan · Jul 18, 2021

HowGullibleRU said:
He referred to his God many times- care for me to post them?

John 20:
17 Jesus *said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’”

Turns out - it is the same as my God.
Deut 6:4 -- ONE GOD
4 “Hear, Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!

Matt 28:19 in THREE Persons
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Christ: "WITH God" AND he WAS in fact "God" John 1:1

PloverWing · Jul 18, 2021

@HowGullibleRU : Why did you pick that user name? If you're trolling, could you just ... not? If you're not trolling, why that user name?

Soyeong · Jul 18, 2021

HowGullibleRU said:
He referred to his God many times- care for me to post them?

There are many verses that describe the Mosaic Covenant as being a marriage relationship between God and Israel, so the Israelites needed to be taught how to intimately know God, which is why God gifted them the Mosaic Law. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by making known to his His ways that he might know Him, and Israel too, and there are many verses that describe the Mosaic Law as how God made known His ways, such as Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3, Joshua 22:5, Psalms 103:7, and many others. On the other hand, in Jeremiah 9:3 and 9:6, they did not know God and refused to know Him because in 9:13, they had forsaken the Mosaic Law, while in 9:24, those who know God know that he delights in practicing steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in all of the earth, so delighting in expressing those and other aspects of God's nature through our obedience to God's law is the way to know Him, and to know Christ, who is the exact expression of His nature (Hebrews 1:3).

Mark Quayle · Jul 18, 2021

Per RC Sproul, NOT A CHANCE (The Revolt Against Reason):

"...Godness and humanness are mutually exclusive categories...We are not saying that Christ's body is a divine body. We are saying that the single person [Christ] has two natures. The divine nature is truly divine, and the human nature truly human. The two coexist or are united in one person, but the two natures are not mixed, confused, separated, or divided. Each nature retains its own attributes. The divine nature is not both divine and human. The human nature is not both human and divine."

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 18, 2021

Old Lady said:
...
There is only one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
...

With all respect: I realise that statement is derived from the 6th-century co-called 'Athaniasian' creed; but no Bible verse exists that directly states the above. When someone might ask: 'Who is the one-and-only God', I would be inclined to just refer to the next couple of verses (all in ESV English Standard Version - Wikipedia translation):

John 17:3
'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,'

1 Corinthians 8:4-6
' ... we know ... there is no God but one,
For although there may be many 'gods' and many 'lords' -
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.'

Colossians 1:3
'We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, ..'

Ephesians 4:5-6
'.. one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.'

1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
'.. to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven .. '

1 Timothy 1:17
'To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen'

1 Timothy 2:5
'For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus .. '

Jude 24
'.. to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time[a] and now and forever. Amen.'

Conclusions from that are not that difficult

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 18, 2021

BobRyan said:
...
Matt 28:19 in THREE Persons
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
...

The English term 'person' cannot be used in this 21st century for God the Father or the Holy Spirit, as both are spirits, and not human beings. All contemporary English dictionaries define 'person' to be a human being. I would advise to refrain from using this confusing terminology. This makes debate and mission especially among Muslims very difficult.

Also, we still have the issue that we're not fully certain the current wording of Matthew 28:19 (in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit) is the original; it may be a later rendition. Although ALL existing manuscripts of Matthew 28:19 have that wording, it comes with some nagging problems:

- 'father', 'son' and 'holy spirit' are not proper names, but titles - so when one is supposed to baptise into a name, that very name would be expected to be used, which isn't the case in the well-known Trinitarian formulae. 'YHWH' is a name, 'Jesus/Yeshua' is a name, but not the terms mentioned in the Matthew 28:19 we have.

- ALL recorded baptisms in Acts (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:16, Acts 10:48, Acts 19:5) are done in the name of Jesus only. If the formulae in Matthew 28:19 were to be authentic, it would be very surprising the Apostles would ignore Jesus' command, and baptise in Jesus' name only instead for such a crucial instruction.

TheWhat? · Jul 18, 2021

the user name could be a little less suspect, but in response to some of the other posts in this thread:

ReluctantTheologian said:
1 Corinthians 8:4-6
' ... we know ... there is no God but one,
For although there may be many 'gods' and many 'lords' -
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.'

Paul in verse 7 continues: "Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge...". This is not an easy thing. We all have access to the scripture so if we just pick it up and read it, do we suddenly have whatever he's talking about in verses 4-6? I would argue, no, we don't, necessarily. In my reading of Paul, he teaches of a process of transformation which includes a "renewing of the mind". That implies changes in perspective.

When the apostles say something like "to us there is but one God, the Father", they were not overlooking a contradiction of the beliefs of the author of John 1:1. These were men well aware of the benefit of being united to Christ, and they changed the world because of that fact. There's only one way to the Father, through Christ, the door. What happens when you enter a place? Do you have the same view?

The problem doesn't arise because of a contradiction, it arises because of an inadequate understanding of faith and of the interior man -- these are first century Jews, following their religion, under no obligation to think in ways we modern Westerners feel comfortable with, and what's more, frankly they were at another level, unless anyone can demonstrate that they can do the things they were said to have done.

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 19, 2021

TheWhat? said:
the user name could be a little less suspect, but in response to some of the other posts in this thread:

Paul in verse 7 continues: "Howbeit there is not in all men that knowledge...". This is not an easy thing. We all have access to the scripture so if we just pick it up and read it, do we suddenly have whatever he's talking about in verses 4-6? I would argue, no, we don't, necessarily. In my reading of Paul, he teaches of a process of transformation which includes a "renewing of the mind". That implies changes in perspective.

When the apostles say something like "to us there is but one God, the Father", they were not overlooking a contradiction of the beliefs of the author of John 1:1. These were men well aware of the benefit of being united to Christ, and they changed the world because of that fact. There's only one way to the Father, through Christ, the door. What happens when you enter a place? Do you have the same view?

The problem doesn't arise because of a contradiction, it arises because of an inadequate understanding of faith and of the interior man -- these are first century Jews, following their religion, under no obligation to think in ways we modern Westerners feel comfortable with, and what's more, frankly they were at another level, unless anyone can demonstrate that they can do the things they were said to have done.

Good points; 1 Corinthians 8:4 is Paul's direct reference to the Shema Israel from Deuteronomy 6:4–9 (which was also personal Eureka moment for Mark Nanos Mark Nanos - A "Paul within Judaism" Perspective). And immediately following that, he identifies that one God (YHWH) to be the Father.

When Jesus is the means/door to which we come to the God the Father (John 14:6, Ephesians 2:18), and of course also the visible image of God (John 14:9, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:3); God himself being invisible (John 1:18, Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12).

So what does it mean we get to that place (the Father)? We become one in purpose, in mind-set, in action and in words, and are fully reconciled with and serving Him. At least that would be my humble way of phrasing an answer.

The word 'god' (Greek 'theos') can be used both in identity and functional sense. When John the Apostle was writing John 1:1, he cannot have meant that Jesus literally was the one God in the sense of identity, because that would directly violate his own writing in John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12: no one has ever seen God at any time. Jesus clearly has been seen by many people before John wrote his Gospel and letter, so John didn't mean Jesus literally was the one-and-only God in the identity sense.

The Greek for John 1:1 at the end has something like ' .. and god was the word' ( '.. kai theos en ho logos'). So the definitive article (the 'the') for the qualifier 'god' is missing here, while it is present for 'the word'. Church fathers like Origines and Justin already commented on this issue. But without having or seeking an affiliation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, one could translate this passage with '.. and divine was the word' (the Greek does not distinguish between upper or lower case characters; all of it used Uncials Uncial script - Wikipedia). When taking in all of John to me it makes most sense he uses the term 'god' here in a functional sense; otherwise the mess interpretation-wise would be complete.

In John 20:28 Thomas confronted with Jesus' scarred hands and side exclaims to Jesus: 'My lord and my god!'. At first sight one might jump the gun and conclude: Jesus must the the literal one-and-only God in the identity sense. But again that would be incompatible with John's own writing in two occasions (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) that: no one has ever seen God at any time, so something else must be going on here. My propositions, John could have meant either, or both of these:
- Thomas is seeing the invisible God the Father through/by the visible Jesus, because in John 14:9 Jesus says: ' .. he who has seen Me has seen the Father .. '.
- Thomas is using the term 'god' in a functional sense, similar to John 1:1c, and similar to how Jesus uses the term in John 10:34: .. 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said, you are gods?"'

Both these interpretative options for John 20:28 pose the least problems when trying to harmonise all that is being said of God the Father and his one-and-only Son Jesus, who pre-existed and came down from heaven.

TheWhat? · Jul 19, 2021

ReluctantTheologian said:
Good points; 1 Corinthians 8:4 is Paul's direct reference to the Shema Israel from Deuteronomy 6:4–9 (which was also personal Eureka moment for Mark Nanos Mark Nanos - A "Paul within Judaism" Perspective). And immediately following that, he identifies that one God (YHWH) to be the Father.

When Jesus is the means/door to which we come to the God the Father (John 14:6, Ephesians 2:18), and of course also the visible image of God (John 14:9, Colossians 1:15-17, Hebrews 1:3); God himself being invisible (John 1:18, Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 John 4:12).

So what does it mean we get to that place (the Father)? We become one in purpose, in mind-set, in action and in words, and are fully reconciled with and serving Him. At least that would be my humble way of phrasing an answer.

The word 'god' (Greek 'theos') can be used both in identity and functional sense. When John the Apostle was writing John 1:1, he cannot have meant that Jesus literally was the one God in the sense of identity, because that would directly violate his own writing in John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12: no one has ever seen God at any time. Jesus clearly has been seen by many people before John wrote his Gospel and letter, so John didn't mean Jesus literally was the one-and-only God in the identity sense.

The Greek for John 1:1 at the end has something like ' .. and god was the word' ( '.. kai theos en ho logos'). So the definitive article (the 'the') for the qualifier 'god' is missing here, while it is present for 'the word'. Church fathers like Origines and Justin already commented on this issue. But without having or seeking an affiliation with the Jehovah's Witnesses, one could translate this passage with '.. and divine was the word' (the Greek does not distinguish between upper or lower case characters; all of it used Uncials Uncial script - Wikipedia). When taking in all of John to me it makes most sense he uses the term 'god' here in a functional sense; otherwise the mess interpretation-wise would be complete.

In John 20:28 Thomas confronted with Jesus' scarred hands and side exclaims to Jesus: 'My lord and my god!'. At first sight one might jump the gun and conclude: Jesus must the the literal one-and-only God in the identity sense. But again that would be incompatible with John's own writing in two occasions (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) that: no one has ever seen God at any time, so something else must be going on here. My propositions, John could have meant either, or both of these:
- Thomas is seeing the invisible God the Father through/by the visible Jesus, because in John 14:9 Jesus says: ' .. he who has seen Me has seen the Father .. '.
- Thomas is using the term 'god' in a functional sense, similar to John 1:1c, and similar to how Jesus uses the term in John 10:34: .. 'Is it not written in your Law, "I said, you are gods?"'

Both these interpretative options for John 20:28 pose the least problems when trying to harmonise all that is being said of God the Father and his one-and-only Son Jesus, who pre-existed and came down from heaven.

I have to disagree. By fulfilling the law and the prophets, through the many examples the gospel writers recorded (implying they thought these were important), He was identified as the Word. All one has to do is read to see the Word of God speaks as God, with all authority. Everything about the early christian faith is prophetic -- true fulfillment of prophecy is the operation of God's power, hence the title Word of the Father's power.

TheWhat? · Jul 19, 2021

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 19, 2021

TheWhat? said:
...
By fulfilling the law and the prophets, through the many examples the gospel writers recorded (implying they thought these were important), He was identified as the Word. All one has to do is read to see the Word of God speaks as God, with all authority. Everything about the early christian faith is prophetic -- true fulfillment of prophecy is the operation of God's power, hence the title Word of the Father's power.

I would even agree to that

What is your point of contention? Jesus in John says that he only speaks and acts on behalf/instruction of God the Father; so literally there is nothing he does by himself; it is total dependence. Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah of God, the agent/delegate (so to speak) of God. So functionally what Jesus speaks/does is what God does or wants him to do; yet at the same time Jesus carefully distinguishes between himself and God:

John 14:1

'Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me'

John 17:3

'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent'

Could you elaborate on what specific points you would prefer a different perspective? I'm eager to learn in all circumstances, and correct myself when I'm wrong.

TheWhat? · Jul 19, 2021

My only contention is the tendency to shoehorn the apostles' doctrine concerning their personal, internal spirituality into arianism. I believe that this is the result of foreign logical constraints or ways of thinking, being imposed upon a more ancient spirituality, and a "god" is conceptually something like a superman, but that doesn't sufficiently describe the Word of the Father's power. In short, in my view the Father and Word are distinct, yet operate together as one. Homoousion.

Reluctant Theologian · Jul 19, 2021

TheWhat? said:
My only contention is the tendency to shoehorn the apostles' doctrine concerning their personal, internal spirituality into arianism. I believe that this is the result of foreign logical constraints or ways of thinking, being imposed upon a more ancient spirituality, and a "god" is conceptually something like a superman, but that doesn't sufficiently describe the Word of the Father's power. In short, in my view the Father and Word are distinct, yet operate together as one. Homoousion.

I wouldn't advocate Arianism (=Jesus is created); and it's not just the Father and the Word/Jesus are distinct (by definition any utterance from a being is different from that being). Jesus, John and Paul make a sharp distinction between God and Jesus. The whole 'Homoousion' debate is a bit beyond me as this is non-Biblical terminology; I don't feel I should or could make a qualified call on that. Jesus has been 'begotten' or 'generated' by the Father somehow, that's sufficient for me.

The original Nicene creed (325) also clearly states that there is one God: the Father. And furthermore declares Jesus to be god of god, etc. But still the one God is only the Father in this creed. I think that is also found in all those verses I quoted. Jesus is sub-ordinate to the God the Father; so not equal in rank. Jesus is at the right hand of God, not 'God the Father'.

1 Corinthians 15:27

For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

Philippians 2:9

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We can see in both verses God (= the Father) is the one make makes everything subject to Jesus, and God (= the Father) gives Jesus a name above every name. God is distinct here from Jesus, and the name of God (YHWH) is distinct from the name of Jesus. The name that is the subject of Philippians 2:9 is not YHWH, and Jesus is not the new name for God - every Jew would know that. Jesus is the name of the son of YHWH.

Yet we see YHWH through and in Jesus, and Jesus has been given all power in heaven and on earth (by God the Father), hence he is our Lord (= Master), and everything he does and says is God speaking and acting through Him.

Phrased like this - it is wonderfully straightforward to understand and less contradictory than the traditional 6th-century 'Athanasian' way of thinking. In my humble opinion that 6th creed has ruined the 4th century Nicene one when it comes to logical consistency.

Rescued One · Jul 19, 2021

ReluctantTheologian said:
With all respect: I realise that statement is derived from the 6th-century co-called 'Athaniasian' creed; but no Bible verse exists that directly states the above. When someone might ask: 'Who is the one-and-only God', I would be inclined to just refer to the next couple of verses (all in ESV English Standard Version - Wikipedia translation):

John 17:3
'And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent,'

No, creeds are just a way of explaining the truths already found in the Bible. The Trinity doctrine is apparent to those who know spiritual truths: Christians. There are three Persons in the Trinity. The Nicene Creed is accepted by Christians.

GOD IS ONE GOD
1. Deuteronomy 6 : 4 — There is only one God, Jehovah.
2. Isaiah 43 : 10-11— He is the LORD and only Savior.
3. Isaiah 44 : 6 — He is the first and the last.
4. Revelation 1 : 8 — He is the Lord God Almighty, the Alpha and Omega.
5. Revelation 22 : 13, 16 — Jesus is the first and the last, the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End.
6. Revelation 1 : 17-18 — The one God who was the first and the last died and rose again!
7. Hebrews 1 : 1, 2, 8 — God the Father calls the Son, "God."
8. Acts 5 : 3-4 --Peter calls the Holy Spirit, "God."
9. John 6 : 27 --Jesus calls the Father, "God."

Lower case gods are not the One True God.

The Trinity Revealed in the Resurrection
1. Acts 10 : 39-40 — God raised Christ from the dead.
2. 1 Thessalonians 1 : 10 — God the Father raised the Son from the dead.
3. Romans 8 : 11 — God the Spirit raised the Son from the dead.
4. John 2 : 19-22 — God the Son raised Himself from the dead.

The Trinity Revealed in the Creation
1. The Father: Isaiah 64:8.
2. The Son: Colossians 1:15-17.
3. The Holy Spirit: Job 33:4.

"Be on guard for yourselves and for the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)

Faith groups and individuals that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation whereby He, as God, took on human flesh (becoming fully God and fully man in one person), are considered non-Christians at CF. Posts that deny the full, eternal deity of Jesus Christ or His incarnation are considered non-Christian theology and are not allowed in "Christians Only" forums. Discussions in all "Christians Only" forums must be in alignment with Trinitarian beliefs.
https://www.christianforums/help/faith

TheWhat? · Jul 19, 2021

ReluctantTheologian said:
I wouldn't advocate Arianism (=Jesus is created); and it's not just the Father and the Word/Jesus are distinct (by definition any utterance from a being is different from that being). Jesus, John and Paul make a sharp distinction between God and Jesus. The whole 'Homoousion' debate is a bit beyond me as this is non-Biblical terminology; I don't feel I should or could make a qualified call on that. Jesus has been 'begotten' or 'generated' by the Father somehow, that's sufficient for me.

The original Nicene creed (325) also clearly states that there is one God: the Father. And furthermore declares Jesus to be god of god, etc. But still the one God is only the Father in this creed. I think that is also found in all those verses I quoted. Jesus is sub-ordinate to the God the Father; so not equal in rank. Jesus is at the right hand of God, not 'God the Father'.

1 Corinthians 15:27

For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.

Philippians 2:9

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We can see in both verses God (= the Father) is the one make makes everything subject to Jesus, and God (= the Father) gives Jesus a name above every name. God is distinct here from Jesus, and the name of God (YHWH) is distinct from the name of Jesus. The name that is the subject of Philippians 2:9 is not YHWH, and Jesus is not the new name for God - every Jew would know that. Jesus is the name of the son of YHWH.

Yet we see YHWH through and in Jesus, and Jesus has been given all power in heaven and on earth (by God the Father), hence he is our Lord (= Master), and everything he does and says is God speaking and acting through Him.

Phrased like this - it is wonderfully straightforward to understand and less contradictory than the traditional 6th-century 'Athanasian' way of thinking. In my humble opinion that 6th creed has ruined the 4th century Nicene one when it comes to logical consistency.

Well, fair enough. I still have to contend that, read in the manner which I indicated previously, the Word reveals Himself, and in so doing, we come to see that He literally speaks as God in the OT, which is only alluded to in the NT. But non-Christian Jews would not say that the Word is God, and this I think is something which separates the early Jewish Christians from the others, but they would also agree in a sense, because they share the same God, and here is where we begin to scratch at the homoousian beliefs of early christianity, in my opinion. Essentially, my view is that the difference between Jews at the time of the inception of the early church would best be summarized as the prophets left the building.

Do you know the God of CHRIST?

Member

אַבְרָהָם

Cro-Magnon

אַבְרָהָם

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Junior Member

Episcopalian

Well-Known Member

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

אַבְרָהָם

אַבְרָהָם

Ate all the treats

אַבְרָהָם

Ate all the treats

Ate all the treats

אַבְרָהָם

Ate all the treats

אַבְרָהָם

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Ate all the treats

Similar threads