The Hebrew text of Genesis 1-11

Job 33:6

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He took six days on purpose, so as to give us a template of the workweek, as stipulated in one of the Ten Commandments.

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Just seems like an assumption to me. So God instantly creates the heavens and the earth, then sits around the next 23 hours and 59 minutes waiting for the next day so that we know how to schedule our day-to-day.
 
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miamited

Ted
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So your argument against a non-literal reading boils down to "I'm just believing God's testimony.".

Ok.Good one. As if old earth Creationists wouldn't simply say the same thing.
@Isaiah 41:10

I suppose they might say that, but then they wouldn't be doing so. God's word says, " For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Do you believe that as it is written using basic definitions of the words?

God bless,
Ted
 
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Job 33:6

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@Isaiah 41:10

I suppose they might say that, but then they wouldn't be doing so. God's word says, " For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy."

Do you believe that as it is written using basic definitions of the words?

God bless,
Ted

I believe that God worked through people and that it is God's testimony, but not that the author or authors(s) necessarily knew the timeline of creation.

I don't know if the author or authors used basic definitions of the English words. Though in my opinion, I don't think it matters so much either way.

I believe that this is God's testimony:
Screenshot_20210618-091709~2.png


Physical creation has it's "scars" demonstrating God's practice.

If anything, I think it's young earthers that aren't acknowledging Gods testimony.

Anyone can misinterpret or misunderstand written words. In my opinion, physical creation gives a much more clear account of how it was created.
 
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Just seems like an assumption to me. So God instantly creates the heavens and the earth, then sits around the next 23 hours and 59 minutes waiting for the next day so that we know how to schedule our day-to-day.
Is that your idea of what I said?

He didn't make a tree here, make one there, make another one over there, and so on over a period of one day?
 
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I don't know if the author or authors used basic definitions of the English words. Though in my opinion, I don't think it matters so much either way.
Just out of curiosity, what do you think was that one language spoken here:

Genesis 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
 
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Job 33:6

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Just out of curiosity, what do you think was that one language spoken here:

Genesis 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

Beats me.

Is that your idea of what I said?

He didn't make a tree here, make one there, make another one over there, and so on over a period of one day?

The original question was why God would make things over billions of years, as if God was sitting around watching creation, and eventually got bored then made people.

And my response to that was the question of why God would make things over 6 days, as if God were sitting around for hours, then got bored and decided to create the next piece.

The question could be made for any period of time.
If God did make one tree here, then time passed and then God went and made another tree somewhere else, then time passed, then God made another tree elsewhere etc., Anything but instantaneous creation of everything would beg the same question.

Miamited said that he simply takes God's testimony as truth. But of course everyone says that, both old earth and young earth alike. Kind of a meaningless response.
 
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miamited

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I believe that God worked through people and that it is God's testimony, but not that the author or authors(s) necessarily knew the timeline of creation.

I don't know if the author or authors used basic definitions of the English words. Though in my opinion, I don't think it matters so much either way.

I believe that this is God's testimony:
View attachment 301035

Physical creation has it's "scars" demonstrating God's practice.

If anything, I think it's young earthers that aren't acknowledging Gods testimony.

Anyone can misinterpret or misunderstand written words. In my opinion, physical creation gives a much more clear account of how it was created.
@Isaiah 41:10

So...is that a yes or no? Are you inferring that when the Scriptures declare that God's own finger wrote the law and inscribed on the stone tablets that in 6 days He made all that it is, the authors, who Paul declares is God, got it wrong somehow? Or did you mean to write 'writers'? Author denotes the one who both wrote and conceived, of a written account. Thereby allowing that your understanding is that the writers mislead us in believing that God's own finger wrote the commandments on the stone tablets.

I simple yes or no to my initial question of believing God's word where it claims that God's word tells us that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, is what it's going to take to prove your claim that just because you understand a non-literal interpretation, you still believe God's word. Did God, in fact, create all that is, in this realm of His creating, in six days?

Does looking at Jesus tell you how he was conceived?

God bless,
Ted
 
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Job 33:6

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@Isaiah 41:10

So...is that a yes or no? Are you inferring that when the Scriptures declare that God's own finger wrote the law and inscribed on the stone tablets that in 6 days He made all that it is, the authors, who Paul declares is God, got it wrong somehow? Or did you mean to write 'writers'? Author denotes the one who both wrote and conceived, of a written account. Thereby allowing that your understanding is that the writers mislead us in believing that God's own finger wrote the commandments on the stone tablets.

I simple yes or no to my initial question of believing God's word where it claims that God's word tells us that in six days God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them, is what it's going to take to prove your claim that just because you understand a non-literal interpretation, you still believe God's word. Did God, in fact, create all that is, in this realm of His creating, in six days?

Does looking at Jesus tell you how he was conceived?

God bless,
Ted

I don't think that God took the form of a metaphysical hand that came down from the clouds and wrote on stone tablets (imagines a giant hand, almost like an asteroid, just blazing in from space*), if that is what you're asking. That's what is sounds like you're asking me.

In which case, if this is what the authors literally believed, then yes, I would suspect that they were incorrect.

People write information with use of human tools, such as tablets. God might inspire those people and work through them, but it isn't Gods literal hand writing this information down. All human beings fall short of the Glory of the lord, including in things such as omniscience and our understanding of the handiworks of God.

I think that the "six days" is a misinterpretation based on a limited understanding of creation. So no, I don't think God created in 6 literal days.
 
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I don't think that God took the form of a metaphysical hand that came down from the clouds and wrote on stone tablets (imagines a giant hand, almost like an asteroid, just blazing in from space*), if that is what you're asking. That's what is sounds like you're asking me.

In which case, if this is what the authors literally believe, then yes, I would suspect that they were incorrect.

People write information with use of human tools, such as tablets. God might inspire those people and work through them, but it isn't Gods literal hand writing this information down. All human beings fall short of the Glory of the lord, including in things such as omniscience and our understanding of the handiworks of God.

I think that the "six days" is a misinterpretation based on a limited understanding of creation. So no, I don't think God created in 6 literal days.

Screenshot_20210621-110704~2.png

Screenshot_20210621-110743~2.png


I think the above images might help depict a literal perspective on God's finger writing on tablets to Moses.

This just doesn't reflect my belief in how this unfolded. That God took the form of a human hand somewhere perhaps in the atmosphere or in another dimension and the tablets just came floating down.

Is this what you literally believe about the origins of the book of genesis @miamited ?
 
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miamited

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@Isaiah 41:10
I think that the "six days" is a misinterpretation based on a limited understanding of creation. So no, I don't think God created in 6 literal days.

So, when God's word says that God did create the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days, you don't believe that.

Now, let's go back to my previous premise. I think a lot of christians don't really believe God's word. The issue is now settled.

God bless,
Ted
 
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@Isaiah 41:10


So, when God's word says that God did create the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days, you don't believe that.

Now, let's go back to my previous premise. I think a lot of christians don't really believe God's word. The issue is now settled.

God bless,
Ted

In a literal sense, I don't believe in the passages you're referencing. However, in something perhaps metaphorical or in a value based spiritual sense, I do. Who's creation would it be but not God's?

Screenshot_20210621-110704~2.png

Screenshot_20210621-110743~2.png



A hand in the sky somewhere "beaming" the commandments onto stone tablets? Then these tablets floating down into moses' arms?

No.

These ideas are almost as bad as Ken Hams ark encounter nephilim- dinosaur gladiator battles (look it up if you haven't seen this yet).

But could mankind have been intimately inspired by God to write the commandments with our own two hands on stone tablets (as we would write using tablets otherwise)?

Absolutely.

God so involved in the hearts of the author or authors, that we might say that He wrote the word Himself with His own two divine hands.

But of course the Father doesn't literally have hands, he is omnipresent, not limited in form, not until the appearance of Jesus at least (it's an assumption to suggest otherwise). It is manmade ink on the pages of our scripture, as were they man made etchings back then on tablets.

It is belief in God written scripture, just not in a literal sense but rather more metaphorical, or through parables or perhaps more metaphysical than physical literalism.
 
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miamited

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@Isaiah 41:10

In a literal sense, I don't believe in the passages you're reference. However, in something perhaps metaphorical or in a value based spiritual sense, I do.

Hey, listen. I get it. I understand exactly what you're saying. I just don't agree. I believe that God raised up a people from the loins of Abraham and one of the responsibilities of those people was to deliver to the world, prior to God's sending His Savior, His written revelation of Himself to all mankind.


Peter, one of Jesus' closest apostles understood it that way. He wrote about the very claim you're making: Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. And again: For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. Paul understood it that way. He wrote about the actual writings of men as they applied to the written Scriptures: “Brothers and sisters, the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas,..." He understood that it wasn't men's understanding and ideas about God that were written in the Scriptures, but the knowledge and wisdom of the Holy Spirit that wrote about the things of God. Merely using the hands of holy men of God.

So, those words that are found in the law, which have been there since the very beginning of the law as handed down to Moses in the wilderness. Those words were not the words of men who were trying, as best they could, to interpret and resolve the world as they understood it. Those words were given to them to write by the knowledge and understanding of the Holy Spirit and what he knew and understood of the things of God, which would be pretty much everything.

You obviously don't see it that way. That's ok with me. But I write these things that you may know that there is a difference in how 'christians' see the Scriptures, but I don't think there is in how those who have been born of the Spirit of God, see the Scriptures. Christians are just like Jews in their individual understanding of the things of God. Some of them are a remnant that have truly trusted God and some of them are just practicing the faith, as they understand it, explained in the Scriptures. But supported and proved by the wisdom of men. This is proven by Jesus in his discussion with Nicodemus. Of course we also have God's word that not all Israel will be saved.

Jesus gave us the new covenant understanding of that same principle:
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

These are christians that Jesus is speaking to on the day of God's judgment. Who else on all the face of the earth does such things, in Jesus' name, but christians. Do you hear Buddhists making such claims in Jesus' name? Atheists? Muslims? Do any of them prophesy in Jesus name. Have you heard of them driving out demons in Jesus' name? Or perform miracles in Jesus' name? Of course not. These are christians living upon the earth doing, what they believe to be great things in the name of Jesus.

I have, I believe, the same understanding as Jesus has of the Scriptures: God's word is truth. Every jot and tittle. I believe a donkey spoke to a man. I believe the sun turned back at one time and stood still at another. I believe that a sea parted that was at least a few hundred feet deep. I believe that the whole of the earth was covered in water. I believe that there was a night in Egypt were somehow, inexplicably, only the first male offspring died for no apparent reason. They hadn't been sick or subject to some disease or struck down by a sword. They just died that night. And there was weeping and wailing throughout the whole darkness in Egypt. I believe that a young Jewish girl became pregnant with the promise of salvation carried in her womb, although she had never had sexual relations with a man. I believe the words of God.

I believe that He had a purpose in calling the children of Abraham for the very purpose of writing all these things down that we might believe who He is. He wants us to know that science has it all wrong. We live in a created realm. A realm of existence that somewhere around 6,000 years ago did not exist. If it were possible that a man could have stood in the black inkiness of empty space 6,000 years ago, his eyes would have seen nothing. Nothing! No stars. No planets. No comets shooting across the night sky. Just pure, complete, thick inky darkness all around him in every direction that he looked. Then suddenly and without any cause or created by anything that might have been in the black inkiness of space in which he stood, there appeared a planet. The earth! Spinning with its entire surface covered with water, because God has just spoken it to exist out of nothing. Then, by the time that first spin was completed, God spoke and divided the waters and the dome of the sky surrounding all of the earth. Then He commanded and plants were just immediately upon the earth and then He spoke again and the entire universe was just filled with more stars and planets than any man could ever count. Then He spoke again and fish and birds and other animals were just instantly seen roaming to and fro upon the earth. Then He stooped down and formed the first man, the one for which He had created all that came before. The creature that He made in His image of all the living creatures on the earth and that He set His heart on to love and to cherish.

One day, it's all going to come to a stop about as fast as it all started. Then, according to the Scriptures, God is going to cull from all of mankind that has ever lived upon His earth, in this realm of His creating a home where man could live, a group of mankind who believe Him. Who trust Him. Who love Him. That group of mankind will have found their names written in the Lamb's book of life, because they too, like Jesus, believed God. They will hear God say, "Enter into my eternal rest."

“Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

However, the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

This is all possible because we live in a created realm. Created miraculously by the will and power and majesty of a God who loves us. Not some existence that took billions and billions of years to be built to sustain the life of man, but an existence that was near instantly created to sustain the life of man.

God bless,
Ted
 
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miamited

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@Isaiah 41:10

However, in something perhaps metaphorical or in a value based spiritual sense, I do.

So, the truth is that you really don't understand 'what' you believe. It's something perhaps metaphorical or in a value based sprititual sense (whatever that really means.) Friend, I hear you. I've read your responses to how you understand the Scriptures. But I don't agree with you.

We might, maybe, possibly find some agreement in some very few passages of the new covenant. Like for example the last verses of Mark's gospel. But the old covenant was all written down and codified and a canon had been established long before Jesus came to visit us. The believing Jews pretty much all believed that this realm of creation had a beginning and Jesus spoke of the beginning. The Jews have, even to this day, maintained a calendar based on when they believe the earth was created. According to tradition, the Hebrew calendar started at the time of Creation, placed at 3761 BCE. The current (2020/2021) Hebrew year is 5781. The observant Jew believes that the creation is just short of 6,000 years. What I know, is that reflects the basic and simple understanding of what God's Scriptures teach. That everything I know about God, and His creating this realm. came to me by the faithful Jewish prophets who wrote down the things that were revealed to them through God's Holy Spirit. Everything! Absolutely everything I know about God, came to me by way of the Scriptures, which were written by faithful Jewish holy men of God.

God bless,
Ted
 
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Job 33:6

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@Isaiah 41:10



So, the truth is that you really don't understand 'what' you believe. It's something perhaps metaphorical or in a value based sprititual sense (whatever that really means.) Friend, I hear you. I've read your responses to how you understand the Scriptures. But I don't agree with you.

We might, maybe, possibly find some agreement in some very few passages of the new covenant. Like for example the last verses of Mark's gospel. But the old covenant was all written down and codified and a canon had been established long before Jesus came to visit us. The believing Jews pretty much all believed that this realm of creation had a beginning and Jesus spoke of the beginning. The Jews have, even to this day, maintained a calendar based on when they believe the earth was created. According to tradition, the Hebrew calendar started at the time of Creation, placed at 3761 BCE. The current (2020/2021) Hebrew year is 5781. The observant Jew believes that the creation is just short of 6,000 years. What I know, is that reflects the basic and simple understanding of what God's Scriptures teach. That everything I know about God, and His creating this realm. came to me by the faithful Jewish prophets who wrote down the things that were revealed to them through God's Holy Spirit. Everything! Absolutely everything I know about God, came to me by way of the Scriptures, which were written by faithful Jewish holy men of God.

God bless,
Ted

I know what I believe. Every passage is different. Some metaphorical, some contain parables, some literally true, and some stated as true by people who could very well have been mistaken.

If scripture speaks of Jesus walking through Jerusalem, there's no reason to consider such a verse as parable or metaphorical because there isn't anything about such a statement that contradicts observed creation. (We know Jerusalem is a real place for example).

But when it comes to the earth and universe, creation, as in the reality of what God has created, when this creation runs in clear contradiction to the interpretation of a 6 day age, then this becomes an issue. We ought to be a bit more skeptical of literal positions on these contradicting versus, as opposed to taking an "all or nothing" position where you're either a young earth Creationists willing to believe in anything and everything without evidence (and in contradiction of evidence), or you're an atheist. I would consider YECism and atheism two extreme responses to this dilemma.

Regarding Jewish calendars:
Your trust currently resides in the knowledge of men, men who, to be fair, lacked knowledge about creation. In this case, Jews with calendars, and not in the actual work of God, creation, as observed through things like direct observation of the earth. As others have noted, some scholars suggest that ancient Jews thought the planet was flat. They aren't credible sources when it comes to information about creation.

Until young earthers can address the evidence in physical creation itself, as observed via scientific investigation, young earth creationism will remain theologically broken.
 
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miamited

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@Isaiah 41:10
Your trust resides in the knowledge of men, men who, to be fair, lacked knowledge about creation.

Well, I understand why you'd say that, but it isn't what the Scriptures declare about themselves. My trust, if what the Scriptures say is true, is in the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Ted
 
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@Isaiah 41:10


Well, I understand why you'd say that, but it isn't what the Scriptures declare about themselves. My trust, if what the Scriptures say is true, is in the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Ted

Personally, I just don't think that belief in creation, without corroboration with observation of creation, does justice to the Lord.

And for some people, some YECs, this may be perfectly understandable if they aren't scientists or maybe if they just aren't particularly familiar with creation. Some people see grass on their lawns. They see a few trees and clouds and that's about where their experiences end. For these individuals, I could see YECism being a sensible default position.

But if you have familiarity with creation, and you
put on blinders and perhaps avoid coming to terms with creation in favor of an interpretation of scripture that doesn't have that same corroboration with external evidence, then, you would have to answer to God.

Young earthers might look at Christian scientists and may say, well what will these scientists say to God when God asks them why they didn't accept scripture at face value as YECists do. But I say the opposite. What will YECs say when God asks them why they denied His physical observable creation in exchange for an interpretation conjured purely in the human mind in the absence of corroborating physical evidence.

Now of course some YECs don't accept science and think that scientists are all a bunch of liars. But I think this is all the more reason not to take the YEC approach. It results in, to be fair, an anti science dogma. And that's a real issue for the church, in my opinion. A lot of middle eastern Muslim countries have a very low scientific output. I'd rather not see our Christian body go down that road. Part of the reason atheism is growing is because a lot of Christians aren't interested in taking a more critical and evidence based corroborating approach. And people just aren't buying YECism. We need to reclaim and maintain science as a Christian endeavour, if we intend to continue spreading the gospel. Else the gospel will fall on deaf ears if it gets stuck in the past.

Well, I suppose God will resolve our dilemma some day for us! Maybe even if it's simply in the afterlife.
 
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@Isaiah 41:10


God's word is truth. I believe a donkey spoke to a man. He wants us to know that science has it all wrong.

God bless,
Ted

I took just a snippet of your above post to focus in. Not to cherry pick, but simply for observation.

I think this speaks volumes of the current condition of the body of Christ.

While you view the above words as perhaps poetic, beautiful and honorable to God, I see it as problematic.

Take the following image from Ken Hams ark encounter:

Screenshot_20210621-213010~2.png


If this is where the body of Christ is headed, I think we are in trouble.
 
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@Isaiah 41:10

What is the picture from the Ark adventure supposed to be representing?

God bless,
Ted

It appears to depict nephilim battling against a carnotaurus in a gladiator arena.

The limits of the human imagination are without bounds.

At least when you say you believe in things, you directly defer to scripture. However there is a lot of abstraction going on where, if the world is 6000 years old, then it must also mean that dinosaurs and humans squared off in combat.

I'm a huge fan of Jurassic park and dinosaur combat, but I tend to prefer these things in movie theaters and not in Sunday school.

I try not to mix money and entertainment with Jesus.
 
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