JESUS and the APOSTLES OBEYED GOD'S LAW and the SABBATH!

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Leaf473

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No, I want to be clear. It's not that we don't submit to God with our body and mind. The Bible is clear on that. The question is, what physical requirement is the Law talking about? Paul discussed one such Law that we addressed.

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

There are physical requirements here. It's just that this Law was really never about feeding Oxen. Just like Jesus telling you that you can not enter heaven unless you eat His Flesh. There are physical requirements here, it's just up to us to "Study", not the internet or Calvin, or Benny Hinn, but the Holy Scriptures so we can, well, let me allow the Scriptures to tell you.

Rom. 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world:(or religions thereof) but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The religions of this world will not teach you the truth about God, just as the Mainstream religions of Jesus' Time didn't teach the truth about God. Until we understand this Biblical Truth, we have no Light. As it is written.

Is. 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

That's why Jesus stayed in the Law and Testimony, and taught you and I to Live by Every Word of God. He is the Light, we can trust Him. The internet, popular religions or religious philosophers of this world, not so much.
Good post, I especially like this part
There are physical requirements here. It's just that this Law was really never about feeding Oxen. Just like Jesus telling you that you can not enter heaven unless you eat His Flesh. There are physical requirements here, it's just up to us to "Study", not the internet or Calvin, or Benny Hinn, but the Holy Scriptures so we can, well, let me allow the Scriptures to tell you.
I agree that at least some of the laws are about something different than what we see in just the letters.

I have studied the scriptures and come to conclusions about those laws. I am sure you have done the same.

I think we have arrived at different conclusions. We can discuss those different conclusions, if you like.

The first questions I would ask in that discussion are:

Is the entire law about something different than what is stated in it, or just some of the laws?

If just some of the laws, do you have a list of those laws?
 
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Studyman

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This looks like a good place to start

The link that I posted

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Angry

tells the Bible Gateway search engine to find every occurrence of the word "angry" in the World English Bible.

Do you believe that it produced erroneous results?

If a man doesn't know, or care, what God's Definition of "anger" is, according to His Own Words, then how is it helpful to know where the Word exists?

The point is, that according to some "other religious voices" in this world we were brought into, God may have no Law regarding hating, or being "Angry" or bearing a Grudge, or seeking vengeance, or vilifying a brother in their heart "without Cause".

But when a man studies "Every Word" which proceeds from the mouth of God, it becomes clear that from the very beginning, God had laws and instructions regarding how to treat our brothers, Which includes but is not limited to, not to being angry with a "Brother" without a cause. As the Scriptures I posted clearly show.

Even Jesus Himself, tells us where HE get's His Philosophies from. He didn't make them up as HE went, nor did HE come to give us His Own Views.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If a search engine understands this, that is great. If it doesn't, who cares, because we have been told and shown over and over again, that the "ways of this world" are not the "Way of the Lord". And we are to "live by God's Word", not some random website only in existence since 1993. Are you implying that those born before Gateway can't understand what God means?

"Started by Nick Hengeveld in 1993[3] at Calvin College, Bible Gateway was initially planned as a static HTML presentation of the Bible.[4] In 1995, the site moved to the new Gospel Communications Network (a part of Gospel Communications International). The Bible Gateway website was originally written as a CGI script in Perl. Later versions were written in C++, PHP and Ruby.

Bible Gateway gradually expanded its database by acquiring the rights to more English and foreign language translations, including translations published by International Bible Society, The Lockman Foundation and Wycliffe Global Alliance.

In late 2008, Zondervan (the Evangelical Christian publisher of the NIV and TNIV Bible and a wholly owned subsidiary of HarperCollins) acquired Bible Gateway from Gospel Communications.[5] The sale of the site came after two years of continued financial difficulties on the part of the donation-driven GospelCom ministry.[6]

In June 2009, Joseph Park was hired as president of BibleGateway.com.[7] Park was co-founder and former CEO of Kozmo.com,[8] which was the subject of the documentary film e-Dreams. He was also co-founder and former CEO of Askville, owned by Amazon.com and closed in 2013.

In May 2009, Rachel Barach replaced Park (who became Senior Vice President of Consumer Products at parent company HarperCollins Digital, Consumer) as General Manager of Bible Gateway.[9]"

The internet is a good tool to find Scriptures, but it is the Scriptures that teach us doctrine, and "Instruction in Righteousness", not the World Wide Web". In my view.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The short answer to your post is Yes.

Has God made it hard to know which of his laws are eternal? Do you feel you know all of the ones that are eternal?

Let's start here- do you agree the Ten Commandments are eternal?
 
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Studyman

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Beginning here

I'm not rejecting a Commandment of God.

It is Exodus that states,
"You shall not do any work in it."

Are there other passages in the scriptures that modify the commandments?

I think so. How the commandments are modified is what we are discussing, imo.

No! Religious men may have been convinced that Jesus "modified" God's Laws. But this isn't true if the Bible is the source. Jesus was correcting the mainstream preachers of His time by teaching the parts of God's Law the mainstream religions of His time had rejected or polluted.

God's definition of unlawful "work" on His Holy Sabbath has always remained the same. Jesus and His Disciples walked in God's Sabbath. The Priesthood has changed, as prophesied. But God's Sabbath remains the same.

The Mainstream Preachers of Jesus time were angry with Jesus because HE didn't honor "THEIR" Sabbath, just as many Mainstream Preachers of my time become angry when i don't honor "Their" Sabbath.

Jesus didn't Modify God's Sabbath, HE exposed those who Polluted it. At least according to the Scriptures in my view.

The direct answer to your question is that my religious philosophy is in my mind. That would be true of everyone who is posting on this thread, since something has to be in your mind before you can turn it into words on a forum. But I know that's not what you're actually asking.

True, but it is a good point. As Jesus said, It is what is in within our own mind that defiles us. That is where the true battle between God's definition of "Good" and the prince of this worlds definition of "good" takes place. As it is written;

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Our mind)

But to answer the thrust of your question, I believe that the Sabbath commandment and the "ox" commandment are modified by the passage in Galatians that says that the entire law is fulfilled in loving your neighbor as yourself.

OK, that is a popular religious philosophy in the religions of this land we were born into.

Can you explain how the "OX" Commandment was modified by Paul? He did write both Corinthians and Galatians, Yes? Are you teaching he taught different gospel to the Corinthians than he did for the Galatians?

Isn't the point Paul is making in Corinthians 9, that God's Law was "written for men" not Oxen? That God's Law was "written for "OUR", that is, New Covenant believers Sake's? Not for the sake of the Ox?

Are you teaching that God's Law "used to be" for oxen, but Paul Modified it to be for our, New Covenant believers, sake's no doubt?

This is a really important question.

According to your understanding of the Scriptures, who did God have the Law and Prophets written for?

So I ask myself, would I want my neighbor to return my ox on the Sabbath? Yes, unless that would go against her conscience.

So then, you would want your neighbor to physically follow God's Commandment, which is doing "Good", even on God's Holy Sabbath. Isn't this what Jesus was saying? That it is "lawful" to "physically" obey God's Commandment, even on His Sabbath?

Duet. 22:1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.

2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

So then the requirements of the Law , not killing your brother, not hating your brother in your heart, not stealing from your brother, not coveting after your brother's things, not lusting after your brother's wife, not hiding thyself from thy brother's lost things, not looking on the nakedness of your brother's daughters or wife, and more, are all fulfilled when we obey this commandment from the heart.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

How was this "modifying" God's Commandments?



A example from life today would be, Would I want my neighbor to retrieve my trash can from the street on a windy day? Yes, with the same guidelines as above.

I'm not sure your equating lifting a sheep that has falling into a ditch or helping a sick man on God's Holy Sabbath, with a trash can you failed to secure while you were out making money on Saturday, is a Just or righteous comparison to the Law God gave us in Leviticus 19.

I would have to disagree with this example as justification for working on God's Sabbath.
 
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Leaf473

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If a man doesn't know, or care, what God's Definition of "anger" is, according to His Own Words, then how is it helpful to know where the Word exists?

The point is, that according to some "other religious voices" in this world we were brought into, God may have no Law regarding hating, or being "Angry" or bearing a Grudge, or seeking vengeance, or vilifying a brother in their heart "without Cause".

But when a man studies "Every Word" which proceeds from the mouth of God, it becomes clear that from the very beginning, God had laws and instructions regarding how to treat our brothers, Which includes but is not limited to, not to being angry with a "Brother" without a cause. As the Scriptures I posted clearly show.

Even Jesus Himself, tells us where HE get's His Philosophies from. He didn't make them up as HE went, nor did HE come to give us His Own Views.

John 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If a search engine understands this, that is great. If it doesn't, who cares, because we have been told and shown over and over again, that the "ways of this world" are not the "Way of the Lord". And we are to "live by God's Word", not some random website only in existence since 1993. Are you implying that those born before Gateway can't understand what God means?

"Started by Nick Hengeveld in 1993[3] at Calvin College, Bible Gateway was initially planned as a static HTML presentation of the Bible.[4] In 1995, the site moved to the new Gospel Communications Network (a part of Gospel Communications International). The Bible Gateway website was originally written as a CGI script in Perl. Later versions were written in C++, PHP and Ruby.

Bible Gateway gradually expanded its database by acquiring the rights to more English and foreign language translations, including translations published by International Bible Society, The Lockman Foundation and Wycliffe Global Alliance.

In late 2008, Zondervan (the Evangelical Christian publisher of the NIV and TNIV Bible and a wholly owned subsidiary of HarperCollins) acquired Bible Gateway from Gospel Communications.[5] The sale of the site came after two years of continued financial difficulties on the part of the donation-driven GospelCom ministry.[6]

In June 2009, Joseph Park was hired as president of BibleGateway.com.[7] Park was co-founder and former CEO of Kozmo.com,[8] which was the subject of the documentary film e-Dreams. He was also co-founder and former CEO of Askville, owned by Amazon.com and closed in 2013.

In May 2009, Rachel Barach replaced Park (who became Senior Vice President of Consumer Products at parent company HarperCollins Digital, Consumer) as General Manager of Bible Gateway.[9]"

The internet is a good tool to find Scriptures, but it is the Scriptures that teach us doctrine, and "Instruction in Righteousness", not the World Wide Web". In my view.
At the end you say
The internet is a good tool to find Scriptures...
Exactly! So I used their search engine to find occurrences of the word "angry" as a way of seeing if the phrase everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment." That phrase does not occur in the law.

Is it possible to reach that conclusion by getting at the meaning of other things in the law? Yes!


No! Religious men may have been convinced that Jesus "modified" God's Laws.
We don't have to use the word "modified". "Clarified" is fine with me. Or the phrase "taught details about the law". Is one of those acceptable to you?

The main thing I'm interested in discussing is
the idea that at least some of the laws are about something different than what we see in just the letters.

Is the entire law about something different than what is stated in it, or just some of the laws?

If just some of the laws, do you have a list of those laws?
 
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Leaf473

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Let's start here- do you agree the Ten Commandments are eternal?
Yes the Ten commandments are eternal.

I don't know if you want to go this direction or not, but the commandment to put fringes on your clothes is also eternal.
 
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Studyman

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At the end you say

It would be good if you would post my entire sentence so as not to "modify" the point I was making.

"The internet is a good tool to find Scriptures, but it is the Scriptures that teach us doctrine, and "Instruction in Righteousness", not the World Wide Web". In my view."

Surely you don't disagree with this statement.

Exactly! So I used their search engine to find occurrences of the word "angry" as a way of seeing if the phrase everyone who is angry with his brother without a cause will be in danger of the judgment." That phrase does not occur in the law.

Is it possible to reach that conclusion by getting at the meaning of other things in the law? Yes!

The entire intent in your post was to teach that God's Law didn't address being angry with a Brother for no reason. That Jesus "Modified" God's Law because He came teaching different than HIS father. If you were to be honest, that is what your posts reflect.

You were replying to my post;

"I was responding to your post.

"He bound up the law about murder, saying that it included hating."

Jesus didn't teach anything different than what HIS Father had already written. The Mainstream preachers did, but Jesus didn't. God's Law has always taught not to Kill, and not to Hate your Brother."

Then You posted the reason for your disagreement with me.

"I did a word search for every occurrence of "angry".
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Angry

I don't see that what Jesus says is stated in the law."

What I posted was Scriptures which indeed confirm that what Jesus said, is stated in the Law.

I even posted the original Greek Word that was translated into the English word "Anger", in order for us both to understand where Jesus received this teaching from. Clearly He is furthering God's Laws regarding our Brother, found in the Law and Prophets.

I did so, because one of the "many" insidious falsehoods taught by the religions of the land we were born into, is from Matt. 5. They falsely preach that the "them of old time" is referring to God and Moses, when the truth is, these were the Shepherds who led Israel astray by becoming "Partial in the Law". Jesus is pointing out that HE, as our High Priest, teaches to "Live by" Every Word of God", not the religious doctrines and traditions of the mainstream religions of the land we are born into. As HE said;

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, (Mainstream Preachers of that time) ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


We don't have to use the word "modified". "Clarified" is fine with me. Or the phrase "taught details about the law". Is one of those acceptable to you?

There is a world of difference between "Modified" and "clarified". Just as there is a world of difference between "Destroy" and Fulfill".

I can only go by what you post. If you made an error by choosing "Modified" when you really meant "clarified", then the entire meaning of your posts has been changed. And it goes from being false, to being true.

Jesus and Paul "clarified" God's Laws because the Mainstream Preachers of their time had polluted them with their own religious traditions and "Commandments of men".

Both you and I were born into the same world, with the same Mainstream Religions which pollute God's Laws by promoting their own religious philosophies, which change depending on which religious franchise one adopts. We were warned about these "Many" who come in Christ's Name.


The main thing I'm interested in discussing is
the idea that at least some of the laws are about something different than what we see in just the letters.

It seems to me you are here to justify your own popular religious philosophy regarding God's Sabbaths. I don't see that you are too concerned with fringes or facial hair. But to separate 52 Saturdays a year unto God, now that could impact your lifestyle.

The Irony is, becoming honest with ones self is one stated reason why God created His weekly "Fast from the world" for men. As it is written.

Is. 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

God explains the reason for His Laws and "Instruction in Righteousness" if we would just "Hunger and thirst" for them.

Matt. 5:6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

This surely looks like God defining what HE means by "our work". Do you believe God's intent here is to teach us to treat every day of the week the same? To make money on His Sabbath? Did this Law of God Pass? Or did Jesus tell us this Law was Specifically made for men?


Is the entire law about something different than what is stated in it, or just some of the laws?

If just some of the laws, do you have a list of those laws?

Perhaps we should deal with the 10 Commandments first and study all the scriptures regarding the physical requirements stated therein. Then we can move on to other Laws God had written for our sake's no doubt.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Yes the Ten commandments are eternal.

I don't know if you want to go this direction or not, but the commandment to put fringes on your clothes is also eternal.
I think we are making progress, previously you thought God’s Ten were shadow laws. I agree I think they are eternal.

If you think fringes on clothes are eternal do you wear them? What do you think they represent?
 
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Leaf473

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It would be good if you would post my entire sentence so as not to "modify" the point I was making.

"The internet is a good tool to find Scriptures, but it is the Scriptures that teach us doctrine, and "Instruction in Righteousness", not the World Wide Web". In my view."

Surely you don't disagree with this statement.



The entire intent in your post was to teach that God's Law didn't address being angry with a Brother for no reason. That Jesus "Modified" God's Law because He came teaching different than HIS father. If you were to be honest, that is what your posts reflect.

You were replying to my post;

"I was responding to your post.

"He bound up the law about murder, saying that it included hating."

Jesus didn't teach anything different than what HIS Father had already written. The Mainstream preachers did, but Jesus didn't. God's Law has always taught not to Kill, and not to Hate your Brother."

Then You posted the reason for your disagreement with me.

"I did a word search for every occurrence of "angry".
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Angry

I don't see that what Jesus says is stated in the law."

What I posted was Scriptures which indeed confirm that what Jesus said, is stated in the Law.

I even posted the original Greek Word that was translated into the English word "Anger", in order for us both to understand where Jesus received this teaching from. Clearly He is furthering God's Laws regarding our Brother, found in the Law and Prophets.

I did so, because one of the "many" insidious falsehoods taught by the religions of the land we were born into, is from Matt. 5. They falsely preach that the "them of old time" is referring to God and Moses, when the truth is, these were the Shepherds who led Israel astray by becoming "Partial in the Law". Jesus is pointing out that HE, as our High Priest, teaches to "Live by" Every Word of God", not the religious doctrines and traditions of the mainstream religions of the land we are born into. As HE said;

Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, (Mainstream Preachers of that time) ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.




There is a world of difference between "Modified" and "clarified". Just as there is a world of difference between "Destroy" and Fulfill".

I can only go by what you post. If you made an error by choosing "Modified" when you really meant "clarified", then the entire meaning of your posts has been changed. And it goes from being false, to being true.

Jesus and Paul "clarified" God's Laws because the Mainstream Preachers of their time had polluted them with their own religious traditions and "Commandments of men".

Both you and I were born into the same world, with the same Mainstream Religions which pollute God's Laws by promoting their own religious philosophies, which change depending on which religious franchise one adopts. We were warned about these "Many" who come in Christ's Name.




It seems to me you are here to justify your own popular religious philosophy regarding God's Sabbaths. I don't see that you are too concerned with fringes or facial hair. But to separate 52 Saturdays a year unto God, now that could impact your lifestyle.

The Irony is, becoming honest with ones self is one stated reason why God created His weekly "Fast from the world" for men. As it is written.

Is. 58:6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

God explains the reason for His Laws and "Instruction in Righteousness" if we would just "Hunger and thirst" for them.

Matt. 5:6. Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Is. 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

This surely looks like God defining what HE means by "our work". Do you believe God's intent here is to teach us to treat every day of the week the same? To make money on His Sabbath? Did this Law of God Pass? Or did Jesus tell us this Law was Specifically made for men?




Perhaps we should deal with the 10 Commandments first and study all the scriptures regarding the physical requirements stated therein. Then we can move on to other Laws God had written for our sake's no doubt.

I'm going to respond to the following two posts at the same time. The parts I am most interested in are close enough in subject matter, and this may allow us all to be on the same train of thought.

It would be good if you would post my entire sentence so as not to "modify" the point I was making.
I did post your entire sentence as well as your entire post in the quote box.

I then posted the section I wanted to comment on, followed by an ellipsis to show the reader that I was not quoting a complete sentence.

To have quoted your entire sentence would have made my response less clear, imo.

Perhaps we should deal with the 10 Commandments first and study all the scriptures regarding the physical requirements stated therein. Then we can move on to other Laws God had written for our sake's no doubt.
We can do that if you wish, keeping in mind that I believe we already agreed that at least some of the laws are about something different than what we see in just the letters.

I think we are making progress, previously you thought God’s Ten were shadow laws. I agree I think they are eternal.

If you think fringes on clothes are eternal do you wear them?
I don't put fringes on my clothes. Following the train of thought I'm on with @Studyman , at least some of the laws are about something different than what we see in just the letters.

What do you think they represent?
They probably point to the Holy Spirit being in us, guiding us into all truth.
 
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Studyman

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I'm going to respond to the following two posts at the same time. The parts I am most interested in are close enough in subject matter, and this may allow us all to be on the same train of thought.

I would prefer you respond and answer the questions to the posts I have already made. Not just a part of a sentence here or there, but the Scriptures and questions I pose as well. As I have done for you.

"This is a really important question.

According to your understanding of the Scriptures, who did God have the Law and Prophets written for?"

You also said;

"So I ask myself, would I want my neighbor to return my ox on the Sabbath? Yes, unless that would go against her conscience."

Then I asked, but you didn't answer again, the following question.

"So then, you would want your neighbor to physically follow God's Commandment, which is doing "Good", even on God's Holy Sabbath. Isn't this what Jesus was saying? That it is "lawful" to "physically" obey God's Commandment, even on His Sabbath?"

And I posted the Holy Word's of Jesus Father and my Father.

1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.

2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

So then the physical requirements of the Law regarding how to Love one another, namely, not killing your brother, not hating or being Angry with your brother in your heart, not stealing from your brother, not coveting after your brother's things, not lusting after your brother's wife, not telling tales about your brother, not hiding thyself from thy brother's lost things, not looking on the nakedness of your brother's daughters or wife, and more, are all fulfilled when we obey this commandment from the heart.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So this is how to obey the 2nd greatest Commandment in the Law, that you said you hoped your neighbor does. In your religious philosophy, how does a man obey the 1st greatest commandment?

There are many other parts of my posts to you that you chose not to address, I will re-post them as well, in hope that this time you might consider addressing them.
 
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Leaf473

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I would prefer you respond and answer the questions to the posts I have already made. Not just a part of a sentence here or there, but the Scriptures and questions I pose as well. As I have done for you.

"This is a really important question.

According to your understanding of the Scriptures, who did God have the Law and Prophets written for?"

You also said;

"So I ask myself, would I want my neighbor to return my ox on the Sabbath? Yes, unless that would go against her conscience."

Then I asked, but you didn't answer again, the following question.

"So then, you would want your neighbor to physically follow God's Commandment, which is doing "Good", even on God's Holy Sabbath. Isn't this what Jesus was saying? That it is "lawful" to "physically" obey God's Commandment, even on His Sabbath?"

And I posted the Holy Word's of Jesus Father and my Father.

1 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.

2 And if thy brother be not nigh unto thee, or if thou know him not, then thou shalt bring it unto thine own house, and it shall be with thee until thy brother seek after it, and thou shalt restore it to him again.

3 In like manner shalt thou do with his ass; and so shalt thou do with his raiment; and with all lost thing of thy brother's, which he hath lost, and thou hast found, shalt thou do likewise: thou mayest not hide thyself.

4 Thou shalt not see thy brother's ass or his ox fall down by the way, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt surely help him to lift them up again.

So then the physical requirements of the Law regarding how to Love one another, namely, not killing your brother, not hating or being Angry with your brother in your heart, not stealing from your brother, not coveting after your brother's things, not lusting after your brother's wife, not telling tales about your brother, not hiding thyself from thy brother's lost things, not looking on the nakedness of your brother's daughters or wife, and more, are all fulfilled when we obey this commandment from the heart.

Lev. 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

So this is how to obey the 2nd greatest Commandment in the Law, that you said you hoped your neighbor does. In your religious philosophy, how does a man obey the 1st greatest commandment?

There are many other parts of my posts to you that you chose not to address, I will re-post them as well, in hope that this time you might consider addressing them.
As I talked about earlier, I'm on a cell phone so it's just too difficult for me to deal with long posts all at once.

I'm happy to respond to all of your points and questions one at a time.

Which part of your post would you like me to respond to first?
 
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Leaf473

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I think we are making progress, previously you thought God’s Ten were shadow laws. I agree I think they are eternal.

If you think fringes on clothes are eternal do you wear them? What do you think they represent?
So there's no misunderstanding later on, I want to be clear that we are following a hypothetical situation here
This would be a hypothetical example:
We can follow out the idea that the entire law is eternal,

or that the entire law is temporary,

or, as we are doing now, that some of the law is eternal and some is temporary.

May you have a blessed day!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So there's no misunderstanding later on, I want to be clear that we are following a hypothetical situation here

We can follow out the idea that the entire law is eternal,

or that the entire law is temporary,

or, as we are doing now, that some of the law is eternal and some is temporary.

May you have a blessed day!
I do not like dealing with hypotheticals when the Truth is in God's written Word. Are you saying now the Ten Commandments are eternal only for hypothetical purposes. Just trying to follow what you are teaching, because it hasn't really been clear.

Regarding the tassels, according to scripture is was a symbol to help the Israelites remember God's laws.


Numbers 15: 39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, 40 and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.

God's laws are now written in our heart in the New Covenant. We fulfill God's laws when we obey out of our great love for our Savior because He asked.
 
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Studyman

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As I talked about earlier, I'm on a cell phone so it's just too difficult for me to deal with long posts all at once.

I'm happy to respond to all of your points and questions one at a time.

Which part of your post would you like me to respond to first?

I would only expect you to respond to one question or point at a time, as I do regarding your posts. To date, you have just ignored the great majority of my posts, and the Scriptures contained therein. Rather than respond in one long post, I find it beneficial to break the responses up into several posts when I'm on my phone.

It might be prudent to start at the top and go down. But I really only want the courtesy I extent towards you in addressing my posts, as I have addressed yours. In this way we actually have a discussion about doctrines and religious philosophies. Rather than simply promoting a religion or religious philosophy. In this way we can share perspective, and maybe learn something that we were deceived on, or in error on, not by Lording over each other, but by posting God's Word and examining them in an open and unbiased way.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

It's easier to see the erroneous doctrines of others or other religions, than to see the doctrinal errors of our own religious philosophies. Iron sharpens iron, as it is written.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I look forward to your response to my questions.
 
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Leaf473

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I do not like dealing with hypotheticals when the Truth is in God's written Word. Are you saying now the Ten Commandments are eternal only for hypothetical purposes. Just trying to follow what you are teaching, because it hasn't really been clear.

Regarding the tassels, according to scripture is was a symbol to help the Israelites remember God's laws.


Numbers 15: 39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined, 40 and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.

God's laws are now written in our heart in the New Covenant. We fulfill God's laws when we obey out of our great love for our Savior because He asked.
I can legitimately say that the entire law is eternal,

part of the law is eternal and part is temporary,

or the entire law is temporary.

There is good biblical support for each one of those positions. To those under the law, I become as under the law.

I believe you see part of the law as eternal and part temporary. Sounds like you put the "tassels" law in the "temp" category. But why? Because it's no longer needed? Would that be the standard?

I think it would be really helpful for our discussion if you would list all of the laws you believe are in the "eternal" category.

After all these months of talking with you I still wouldn't be able to explain to someone else what laws SabbathBlessings believes are eternal.

May you have a blessed day!
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Hi Leaf,

Maybe you can clarify:

I can legitimately say that the entire law is eternal,

part of the law is eternal and part is temporary,

or the entire law is temporary.

I am confused by this statement.

After all these months of talking with you I still wouldn't be able to explain to someone else what laws SabbathBlessings believes are eternal.

I am disappointed you say this because I have said multiple times God's Ten Commandments are eternal because the the Word of God tells us they are eternal. Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8, Revelations 14:12, Revelations 22:14

The greatest commandments are eternal, but they are also summarized in God's Ten.

God's civil laws are eternal for example Exodus 23:4 “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again. This seems reasonable and the right thing to do, do you agree?

God's heath guidelines are eternal. God said unclean foods are an abomination- would you want to eat something God tells us is an abomination? Isaiah 66:17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

What ended at the cross with Christ as our perfect sacrifice was blood sacrifices, annual Feast days, physical circumcision which are all ceremonial ordinances from the Law of Moses.

Let me ask you this Leaf, you seem to spend a lot of time wondering about the different laws. Which laws seem to affect your every day living? Shouldn't we focus on these?

Hope you have a blessed day too!
 
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Leaf473

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I would only expect you to respond to one question or point at a time, as I do regarding your posts. To date, you have just ignored the great majority of my posts, and the Scriptures contained therein. Rather than respond in one long post, I find it beneficial to break the responses up into several posts when I'm on my phone.

It might be prudent to start at the top and go down. But I really only want the courtesy I extent towards you in addressing my posts, as I have addressed yours. In this way we actually have a discussion about doctrines and religious philosophies. Rather than simply promoting a religion or religious philosophy. In this way we can share perspective, and maybe learn something that we were deceived on, or in error on, not by Lording over each other, but by posting God's Word and examining them in an open and unbiased way.

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

It's easier to see the erroneous doctrines of others or other religions, than to see the doctrinal errors of our own religious philosophies. Iron sharpens iron, as it is written.

Proverbs 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I look forward to your response to my questions.
When one long post is followed by another, I usually respond to a point in the most recent post. So you are definitely correct that I haven't responded to a lot of your points and questions.

Yes, I'll be happy to go through a post of yours section by section.

Which one would you like me to start with?
 
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Leaf473

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Hi Leaf,

Maybe you can clarify:

I am confused by this statement.
Maybe an example from a different topic would help:

Plants were growing before Adam and Eve were made.

Plants didn't grow until after Adam and Eve were made.

There is good biblical support for each of those.

I am disappointed you say this because I have said multiple times God's Ten Commandments are eternal because the the Word of God tells us they are eternal. Psalms 89:34, Psalms 111:7,8, Revelations 14:12, Revelations 22:14

The greatest commandments are eternal, but they are also summarized in God's Ten.

God's civil laws are eternal for example Exodus 23:4 “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again. This seems reasonable and the right thing to do, do you agree?

God's heath guidelines are eternal. God said unclean foods are an abomination- would you want to eat something God tells us is an abomination? Isaiah 66:17 “Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse, shall be consumed together,” says the Lord.

What ended at the cross with Christ as our perfect sacrifice was blood sacrifices, annual Feast days, physical circumcision which are all ceremonial ordinances from the Law of Moses.

Let me ask you this Leaf, you seem to spend a lot of time wondering about the different laws. Which laws seem to affect your every day living? Shouldn't we focus on these?

Hope you have a blessed day too!
I don't think you've ever posted a complete list of the actual laws.

Thank you for the list of categories. Is that a complete list?
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Maybe an example from a different topic would help:

Plants were growing before Adam and Eve were made.

Plants didn't grow until after Adam and Eve were made.

There is good biblical support for each of those.


I don't think you've ever posted a complete list of the actual laws.

Thank you for the list of categories. Is that a complete list?
There is only one Truth and one Gospel. Just being honest, the way you respond to things makes it seem like there are no clear answers in God's Word.

I answered the question and I tend to be more focused on the commandments that I know I should keep. Is there a law you think I missed that comes in play in your daily life? Since you keep asking, there must be something and I am open to hearing it.

God bless.
 
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Leaf473

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There is only one Truth and one Gospel. Just being honest, the way you respond to things makes it seem like there are no clear answers in God's Word.

I answered the question and I tend to be more focused on the commandments that I know I should keep. Is there a law you think I missed that comes in play in your daily life? Since you keep asking, there must be something and I am open to hearing it.

God bless.
Thank you for the nice response.

I'm not sure if you missed a law or not, because I'm not sure what laws you put in the category of civil laws and health laws.
 
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