Tribulation Length

Hammster · May 25, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Well, you did. Since you don't know when it started but build a doctrine upon it anyway because it sounds better to you? Let me tell you something...

If we're going to judge by what "sounds better" today, in our understanding, rather than by what is consistent and Biblically verifiable, then we're going to be lost before we start. Interpretations belong to God. The generation (family) that was there at the present time was the evil and adulterous generation that sought after a sign. Likewise, there was a chosen and holy generation, the people that God would raise up as a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people, that should show forth the praises of God who has called them out of darkness into his marvelous light. Two bothers, two families that have been at odds with each other since Cain shed the blood of Able, and since Esau struggled against Jacob within the womb. Tell me, @Hammster, how else would This Generation, people in 70Ad, be responsible for the blood of Abel and have it required of it? Would the generation consisting of the 12 Apostles have it required? Of course not! They're not part of Satan's family (generation) that killed Abel, Selah! And so by all logical understanding, "this generation" could not be referencing everyone living at that time! One generation there will have the blood of Able required of it, and one will not because the devil is not their father, they are not his children, for they are not of that generation or family.

Matthew 23:35-346

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation."

What things? God's Judgments. But not upon those who were also there at that time, as the apostles who Christ said were children of God. They are part of a very different generation than that generation of vipers/serpents. Get it? Hello? Indeed, Christ actually labels them a generation of light and contrasts them with the generation of darkness.

Luke 16:8

"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light."

In Their Generation, as opposed to the generation of the children of light. Two Families or generations that have been at odds with each other from the beginning, and shall not pass until all be fulfilled.

The Scripture refuted your doctrine, my friend!

Okay. Be blessed.

TribulationSigns · May 25, 2021

Hämmster said:
Let me know when you calm down a bit. The vitriol is a bit much for a conversation amongst brothers.

Really? Are you starting to say this now because you cannot handle the truthful testimony with Godly wisdom I testified?

Luk 21:15
(15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Gal 4:16
(16) Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Unlike you, I have provided a lot of Scripture to refute your position. I expect you to do better with your response if you want to defend your position.

ViaCrucis · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
And yet we read in the book of Revelation about Mystery Babylon.

We do, and she is identified not with Babylon of old, but with Rome and the power of the emperors, as she rides upon a beast described with the color of imperial crimson.

Which is also why we read St. Peter speak of being in "Babylon" in his epistle (1 Peter 5:13), by which he meant Rome, which tradition records he was executed during Nero's persecutions. St. Clement, bishop of Rome in the late 1st century, remarks of both Paul and Peter's memory in the Church in Rome,

"But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours; and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience." - St. Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians (aka 1 Clement) 5:1-7

It is on the reputation of ancient Babylon that the Church compared the Roman Empire to it, and so calls Rome by this name "Babylon", even though the city of Babylon itself was, at this time little more than rubble and a few small villages in surrounding areas.

Babylon and Egypt remained potent symbols in Jewish and Christian language as symbols of oppression against God's people.

But Isaiah, in his prophecy against Babylon, truly and really did speak of Babylon which would, as prophesied, fall to the coalition of Medes and Persians. He wasn't talking about "Mystery Babylon", i.e. the Roman Empire.

-CryptoLutheran

Hammster · May 25, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
Really? Are you starting to say this now because you cannot handle the truthful testimony with Godly wisdom I testified?

Luk 21:15
(15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.

Gal 4:16
(16) Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

Unlike you, I have provided a lot of Scripture to refute your position. I expect you to do better with your response if you want to defend your position.

Okay.

Love First · May 25, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
We do, and she is identified not with Babylon of old, but with Rome and the power of the emperors, as she rides upon a beast described with the color of imperial crimson.

Which is also why we read St. Peter speak of being in "Babylon" in his epistle (1 Peter 5:13), by which he meant Rome, which tradition records he was executed during Nero's persecutions. St. Clement, bishop of Rome in the late 1st century, remarks of both Paul and Peter's memory in the Church in Rome,

"But not to dwell upon ancient examples, let us come to the most recent spiritual heroes. Let us take the noble examples furnished in our own generation. Through envy and jealousy the greatest and most righteous pillars [of the church] have been persecuted and put to death. Let us set before our eyes the illustrious apostles. Peter, through unrighteous envy, endured not one or two, but numerous labours; and when he had at length suffered martyrdom, departed to the place of glory due to him. Owing to envy, Paul also obtained the reward of patient endurance, after being seven times thrown into captivity, compelled to flee, and stoned. After preaching both in the east and west, he gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and come to the extreme limit of the west, and suffered martyrdom under the prefects. Thus was he removed from the world, and went into the holy place, having proved himself a striking example of patience." - St. Clement's Epistle to the Corinthians (aka 1 Clement) 5:1-7

It is on the reputation of ancient Babylon that the Church compared the Roman Empire to it, and so calls Rome by this name "Babylon", even though the city of Babylon itself was, at this time little more than rubble and a few small villages in surrounding areas.

Babylon and Egypt remained potent symbols in Jewish and Christian language as symbols of oppression against God's people.

But Isaiah, in his prophecy against Babylon, truly and really did speak of Babylon which would, as prophesied, fall to the coalition of Medes and Persians. He wasn't talking about "Mystery Babylon", i.e. the Roman Empire.

-CryptoLutheran

Do you think that it’s possible that the prophecy has dual fulfillment?

I do agree that in Revelation Babylon means Rome.

ewq1938 · May 25, 2021

Douggg said:
Jews (Judaism) end up going through the Great Tribulation.

All humans will go through the Great Tribulation but only Christians are the targeted ones:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Differently, anyone who is a Christian before hand and is looking for Jesus's coming, will be spared going through the Great Tribulation by being taken in the rapture/resurrection event.

No, the rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended so all Christians alive at the time will go through the GT.

parousia70 · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
Do you think that it’s possible that the prophecy has dual fulfillment?

Hi.

Should we therefore be looking for another virgin birth? - rule of double fulfillment

Another crusifixion too? - rule of double fulfillment

If not, Why not?

Can you demonstrate this "double fulfillment" theory from scripture?

Can you show one or two examples of a prophesy that has already been fulfilled more than once?

Where does the Bible teach which prophesy's are single fulfillment and which are double, and why only double? why not triple, quadruple?

Just how many "fulfillments" of any particular prophesy should we expect? 2, 3, 8, 17, 100.. More..?

Does Scripture tell us?

Can we ever know for sure whether a particular prophecy has been completely fulfilled if there is always a possibility of an even greater fulfillment?

I believe your ideas of "multiple fulfillments" are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).

The O.T. prophets did not believe the Messianic advent itself would serve as a TYPE for greater fulfillments beyond it. Is Calvary a mere TYPE for some greater redemption in our future from sin? Of course not. The O.T. things foreshadowed N.T. COMPLETIONS. The N.T. things do NOT in turn foreshadow some future priesthood, sacrifice for sin, etc. The shadows provided by the O.T. religion and history point to the real object of Christ and the heavenly covenant (Col 1:17; Heb 8:1-5; Heb 9:23-24).

The "hermeneutic" that the apostles had was a "typological" hermeneutic. Those O.T. historical events acted as a background that set the Messianic themes (or "TYPES") that Israel would then look for in a coming Messiah. This is basic foreshadowing at work here. The jews saw their national history as FORESHADOWING the life and themes of their future Messiah -- but they could not piece it all together before he came. They had inklings and hunches and nailed down some of the pieces, but much of the details were not clear until it unfolded.

Jesus said to the rabbis, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have life, yet the scriptures TESTIFY OF ME." This is Jesus pointing them to the TYPOLOGICAL "messianic hermeneutic." We should note, however, that the scriptures only testify of Christ if one reads them with the MESSIANIC or "CHRIST" HERMENEUTIC (i.e., this way of reading the O.T. in order to find clues about Israel's Messiah). Furthermore, surely there were competing "messianic hermeneutics" at work in the 1st century. While the apostles recognized that the themes of Israel's history foreshadowed Jesus Christ and his life and death and resurrection, obviously not all jews agreed with the apostles' hermeneutic and many doubted it and openly disputed the apostles' reading of scripture.

So, concerning Israel's historic events and how the apostles interpreted them, Paul says to his endtime contemporaries: "these things happened to them FOR EXAMPLES, AND WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME!" So here Paul believes the O.T. story he mentions in 1 Cor 10:1-10 was really written down as a foreshadowing of the Messianic generation. We see this exact hermeneutical principle also mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-12, which also applies the O.T. prophetic writings as finding their FULLEST completion in Christ's generation!

Finally, to prove that the O.T. things don't just repeat over and over and over again, Jesus said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN WOULD BE FULFILLED" by the time of the Roman Jewish war (Luke 21:20-22). That statement is so absolute. And, if anyone should wonder what the "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" applies to, they only need look to Luke 24:44 to see that it means all the Law, Psalms, and Prophets -- The Old Testament canon! After Jesus is resurrected he tells his disciples that all things written about himself in the O.T. canon must be fulfilled! (Luke 24:44) -- and Luke 21:20-22 tells us WHEN the terminus arrived (Israel's Great Tribulation of 67-70AD).

I do agree that in Revelation Babylon means Rome.

Babylon was 1st century Christian code for apostate Jerusalem.

Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem in about A.D. 65, calling her "Babylon." Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). He was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)
"Babylon" was Jerusalem. Jerusalem was where both "Mark" and "Silvanus" lived (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40).

John likewise confirms 1st century Jerusalem is the Great Harlot City Babylon:

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Revelation 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Peter 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Revelation 17:16; Luke 21:20).

Let's let scripture interpret scripture for us:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

Anyone reading these passages can plainly see that Jerusalem is the Harlot of Revelation. The removal of the bride and the bridegroom, the sound of the millstones, the sound of joy and mirth and the light of the lamp are all about JERUSALEM. We need only believe what the scripture so clearly teaches.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

ewq1938 · May 25, 2021

HTacianas said:
You make several assumptions. First, the tribulation only affects Christians.

The Great Tribulation affects the whole world but only Christians are targeted.

Second, there is "a false Christ".

That comes from Christ:

Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Also the term antichrist can refer to a false Christ as well.

And another, the "gathering" is the rapture.

It is one and the same:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

There were a number of false prophets who led people astray, it was not only one.

There is a specific false prophet mentioned in Revelation.

So there isn't "a" false prophet.

Yes there is:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

parousia70 · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
I’m using the Holy Spirit and common sense. I take Yeshua at his word and don’t call him a liar. So when he says the sun will turn to darkness right before his return I believe him.

There have been multiple “day of the lord” events recorded for us in scripture.

In all previous Day of the Lord events that were fulfilled as the Judgement of God upon Nations, using human armies as His agents, the language used is the same; Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, etc etc....

It is only from the later generations, removed from the genre of Jewish apocalyptic literature, that we find the false, over literalization of such language that was used time and again by the Prophets of God in metaphoric ways to describe the fall of a nation.

The best way to understand apocalyptic writing is to study the many comings of God during the Old Testament times and see how that language is used in past situations. Once we see the way the prophets spoke of God's comings down during the Old Testament times, we are better equipped to think about how God comes all throughout history and even at the end of time. Study the following comings of God in history and think about the way in which the prophets use familiar doom language in each case:

God Comes in a Cloud Against Ancient Egypt - 700s BC
Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

God Comes to End Saul's Kingdom - 1000 BC
Then the earth shook and quaked, the foundations of heaven were trembling and were shaken, because He was angry. Smoke went up out of His nostrils, fire from His mouth devoured; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with thick darkness under His feet. And He rode on a cherub and flew; And He appeared on the wings of the wind. And He made darkness canopies around Him, a mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The LORD thundered from heaven, and the Most High uttered His voice. And He sent out arrows, and scattered them, Lightning, and routed them. Then the channels of the sea appeared, the foundations of the world were laid bare by the rebuke of the LORD, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. (2 Sam 22:8-16)

God Comes to Judge Nineveh - 600s BC
The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, and He reserves wrath for His enemies...In whirlwind and storm is His way, and clouds are the dust beneath His feet. He rebukes the sea and makes it dry; He dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither; The blossoms of Lebanon wither. Mountains quake because of Him and the hills dissolve; Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence, the world and all the inhabitants in it. (Nahum 1:2-5)

God Comes to Judge Egypt in the Time of Nebuchadnezzar - 600s BC
The day is near, even the day of the LORD is near; It will be a day of clouds, a time of doom for the nations. A sword will come upon Egypt, and anguish will be in Ethiopia; When the slain fall in Egypt...And they will know that I am the LORD, when I set a fire in Egypt...I will also make the hordes of Egypt cease by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his people with him, the most ruthless of the nations, will be brought in to destroy the land; and they will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (Ezekiel 30:3-4,8, 10-11)

God Comes to Judge Israel at the Time of the Exile - 500s BC
As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)

God Comes To Judge Ancient Babylon Using the Medes - 500s BC
Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty! Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt, and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. See, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation, and to destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity...Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them, all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished. See, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children. And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pride of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them. (Isaiah 13:6-11, 13,15-19)

God Comes During the Maccabean Period
For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

As we see from this brief survey of the cloud comings of God in history, they all follow a similar pattern, nature, and experience: trumpets, clouds, darkening of the Sun, Moon and constellations, shaking of earth's foundations, great tribulation and distress, God's coming down with his armies. The apocalyptic language is graphic, filled with doom, and repeated at each of God's comings.

These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).

Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matthew 16:27-28; Luke 9:26; Matthew 24:33-34). As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matthew 16:27-28; Matthew 24:33-34).

He made specific Promises to them that He did not fail to fulfill. He did not Lie to them.

ViaCrucis · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
Do you think that it’s possible that the prophecy has dual fulfillment?

I do agree that in Revelation Babylon means Rome.

Sure. That's the case with how early Christians read Isaiah 7:14, they saw in it something pointing beyond the plain meaning of the prophecy (the birth of Hezekiah) to the birth of the Messiah. In the same way they read, "Out of Egypt I called My son", a reference to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt, and saw a deeper pointing to the return of the Holy Family from Egypt back to Judea. I'd say this describes a midrashic reading of the text; an approach to reading Scripture firmly entrenched in Jewish religion and practice.

But when talking about such "duel fulfillment" or of double meaning, I think we need to be extremely careful. We can see this in certain places such as what I mention above because the inspired writers of the New Testament expressly say-so.

We should have a very good reason for this kind of exegesis, in order that it's not eisegesis.

Is there a reason to believe that Isaiah 13's description of the Median conquest of Babylon has a deeper, midrashic meaning in regard to the Lord's Parousia? What is the justification for such?

-CryptoLutheran

Love First · May 25, 2021

parousia70 said:
Hi.

Should we therefore be looking for another virgin birth? - rule of double fulfillment

Another crusifixion too? - rule of double fulfillment

If not, Why not?

Can you demonstrate this "double fulfillment" theory from scripture?

Can you show one or two examples of a prophesy that has already been fulfilled more than once?

Where does the Bible teach which prophesy's are single fulfillment and which are double, and why only double? why not triple, quadruple?

Just how many "fulfillments" of any particular prophesy should we expect? 2, 3, 8, 17, 100.. More..?

Does Scripture tell us?

Can we ever know for sure whether a particular prophecy has been completely fulfilled if there is always a possibility of an even greater fulfillment?

I believe your ideas of "multiple fulfillments" are rooted in O.T. TYPES (i.e. foreshadowings of Messiah). The only problem is, the O.T. foreshadowing finds its final fulfillment in the Messianic generation and does not continue to repeat over and over and over again (for Jesus Christ is no "shadow," but is the OBJECT itself - Col 1:17).

The O.T. prophets did not believe the Messianic advent itself would serve as a TYPE for greater fulfillments beyond it. Is Calvary a mere TYPE for some greater redemption in our future from sin? Of course not. The O.T. things foreshadowed N.T. COMPLETIONS. The N.T. things do NOT in turn foreshadow some future priesthood, sacrifice for sin, etc. The shadows provided by the O.T. religion and history point to the real object of Christ and the heavenly covenant (Col 1:17; Heb 8:1-5; Heb 9:23-24).

The "hermeneutic" that the apostles had was a "typological" hermeneutic. Those O.T. historical events acted as a background that set the Messianic themes (or "TYPES" that Israel would then look for in a coming Messiah. This is basic foreshadowing at work here. The jews saw their national history as FORESHADOWING the life and themes of their future Messiah -- but they could not piece it all together before he came. They had inklings and hunches and nailed down some of the pieces, but much of the details were not clear until it unfolded.

Jesus said to the rabbis, "you search the scriptures because in them you think you have life, yet the scriptures TESTIFY OF ME." This is Jesus pointing them to the TYPOLOGICAL "messianic hermeneutic." We should note, however, that the scriptures only testify of Christ if one reads them with the MESSIANIC or "CHRIST" HERMENEUTIC (i.e., this way of reading the O.T. in order to find clues about Israel's Messiah). Furthermore, surely there were competing "messianic hermeneutics" at work in the 1st century. While the apostles recognized that the themes of Israel's history foreshadowed Jesus Christ and his life and death and resurrection, obviously not all jews agreed with the apostles' hermeneutic and many doubted it and openly disputed the apostles' reading of scripture.

So, concerning Israel's historic events and how the apostles interpreted them, Paul says to his endtime contemporaries: "these things happened to them FOR EXAMPLES, AND WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR INSTRUCTION UPON WHOM THE ENDS OF THE AGES HAVE COME!" So here Paul believes the O.T. story he mentions in 1 Cor 10:1-10 was really written down as a foreshadowing of the Messianic generation. We see this exact hermeneutical principle also mentioned in 1 Peter 1:10-12, which also applies the O.T. prophetic writings as finding their FULLEST completion in Christ's generation!

Finally, to prove that the O.T. things don't just repeat over and over and over again, Jesus said that "ALL THINGS WRITTEN WOULD BE FULFILLED" by the time of the Roman Jewish war (Luke 21:20-22). That statement is so absolute. And, if anyone should wonder what the "ALL THINGS WRITTEN" applies to, they only need look to Luke 24:44 to see that it means all the Law, Psalms, and Prophets -- The Old Testament canon! After Jesus is resurrected he tells his disciples that all things written about himself in the O.T. canon must be fulfilled! (Luke 24:44) -- and Luke 21:20-22 tells us WHEN the terminus arrived (Israel's Great Tribulation of 67-70AD).

Babylon was 1st century Christian code for apostate Jerusalem.

Peter wrote his first epistle from Jerusalem in about A.D. 65, calling her "Babylon." Peter was a "pillar" at Jerusalem (Gal. 1:18; 2:9; Acts 15:7). He was the Apostle of the Circumcision (Gal. 2:7-9).

"By Silvanus, ...I have written you. ...The Church in Babylon ...sends you her greeting, and Mark my son." (I Peter 5:12,13)
"Babylon" was Jerusalem. Jerusalem was where both "Mark" and "Silvanus" lived (Acts 12:12; 15:22-40).

John likewise confirms 1st century Jerusalem is the Great Harlot City Babylon:

Jerusalem is the Great City in the book of Revelation (Revelation 11:8). She is Babylon (1 Peter 5:12-13), the Harlot that rode on the Beast's back (her alliance with Ancient Rome) before the Beast turned on her and made her desolate and burned her with fire (Revelation 17:16; Luke 21:20).

Let's let scripture interpret scripture for us:

MYSTERY BABYLON
Rev. 18:24
And in her was found the blood of prophets...

JERUSALEM
Matthew 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee...

Luke 13:33
... for it cannot be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:22-23
...and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 25:10-11
Moreover I WILL TAKE FROM THEM the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that GREAT CITY Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

JERUSALEM
Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of THE GREAT CITY, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. [our Lord died in Jerusalem, of course]

MYSTERY BABYLON -- CLOTHED IN PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Revelation 17:4, 18:16
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication ... And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones...

PRIESTLY GARMENTS OF AARONIC PRIESTHOOD
Exodus 28:4-6, 17-20
they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister
unto me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. And they shall make the ephod of gold of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with skillful work....And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel...Exodus 28:17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings...

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 4:30
Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 17:5
And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

JERUSALEM
Jeremiah 3:1
but thou hast played THE HARLOT with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:3
and thou hadst a w-hore's forehead...

Ezekiel 16:35-36
Wherefore, O harlot, hear the word of the LORD: Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thy filthiness was poured out, and thy nakedness discovered through thy whoredoms with thy lovers, and with all the idols of thy ABOMINATIONS, and by the blood of thy children, which thou didst give unto them;

MYSTERY BABYLON
Revelation 18:20
Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

JERUSALEM/APOSTATE ISRAEL
Luke 11:47
Woe unto you! ... Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: THAT THE BLOOD OF ALL THE PROPHETS, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, IT SHALL BE REQUIRED of this generation.

Anyone reading these passages can plainly see that Jerusalem is the Harlot of Revelation. The removal of the bride and the bridegroom, the sound of the millstones, the sound of joy and mirth and the light of the lamp are all about JERUSALEM. We need only believe what the scripture so clearly teaches.

The cross references in Holy Scripture are so abundant as to leave us without any doubt who is Mystery Babylon -- JERUSALEM AND APOSTATE ISRAEL.

Ok I’ll give you an example. If you listen to a sermon by John MacArthur on Daniel 11 he claims it has dual fulfillment.

The Reign of Rebellion, Part 1

The Reign of Rebellion, Part 2

Love First · May 25, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Sure. That's the case with how early Christians read Isaiah 7:14, they saw in it something pointing beyond the plain meaning of the prophecy (the birth of Hezekiah) to the birth of the Messiah. In the same way they read, "Out of Egypt I called My son", a reference to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt, and saw a deeper pointing to the return of the Holy Family from Egypt back to Judea. I'd say this describes a midrashic reading of the text; an approach to reading Scripture firmly entrenched in Jewish religion and practice.

But when talking about such "duel fulfillment" or of double meaning, I think we need to be extremely careful. We can see this in certain places such as what I mention above because the inspired writers of the New Testament expressly say-so.

We should have a very good reason for this kind of exegesis, in order that it's not eisegesis.

Is there a reason to believe that Isaiah 13's description of the Median conquest of Babylon has a deeper, midrashic meaning in regard to the Lord's Parousia? What is the justification for such?

-CryptoLutheran

Well to me it seems clear that it is talking about the second coming and there are probably many commentators who would agree but maybe you see something different.

ViaCrucis · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
Well to me it seems clear that it is talking about the second coming and there are probably many commentators who would agree but maybe you see something different.

Could you present your reasoning?

It just seems like a claim that isn't being backed up on much more than your own wanting it to mean that, and on the hypothetical that "many commentators" agree. I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, I'm just not sure on what grounds you justify this interpretation.

-CryptoLutheran

Love First · May 25, 2021

ViaCrucis said:
Could you present your reasoning?

It just seems like a claim that isn't being backed up on much more than your own wanting it to mean that, and on the hypothetical that "many commentators" agree. I don't mean this in any disrespectful way, I'm just not sure on what grounds you justify this interpretation.

-CryptoLutheran

Well first off it says, “The Day Of The Lord” which we know can mean the second coming and for second it says the Sun will be darkened which Yeshua tells us will happen at the end of the age just prior to his parousia. Also it says that the land will be made a desolation which sounds like end times and lastly it says the wicked will be destroyed which we know happens at the end.

Jeffwhosoever · May 25, 2021

Might I add that you do not win arguments by trying to brute force your opinion upon others, but through your grace you lead them into the light of the truth? Hammster asked for such grace several times and never was given such.

I'm studying eschatology and have recognized there are really smart and very educated Christians behind many different views of the end times, and no one for sure has all the answers, or it would not still be in dispute.

Love First · May 25, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
Might I add that you do not win arguments by trying to brute force your opinion upon others, but through your grace you lead them into the light of the truth? Hammster asked for such grace several times and never was given such.

I'm studying eschatology and have recognized there are really smart and very educated Christians behind many different views of the end times, and no one for sure has all the answers, or it would not still be in dispute.

Who are you talking to? Who tried to brute force their opinion?

parousia70 · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
Well first off it says, “The Day Of The Lord” which we know can mean the second coming and for second it says the Sun will be darkened which Yeshua tells us will happen at the end of the age just prior to his parousia. Also it says that the land will be made a desolation which sounds like end times and lastly it says the wicked will be destroyed which we know happens at the end.

I would encourage you to re-read my post #174 very closely.

As I laid out in great detail, According to scripture, There have been multiple, past "Day of the Lord" events, and in each one, the same language is used:
Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, land being made desolate, etc etc....

I am in agreement with @ViaCrucis, your need to Hyper-Literalize this language when you see it in the New testament seems to be based solely on your personal desire for it to be literal, and not on any Old testament scriptural teaching that is IS Literal, and in fact is based on you applying a completely Polar Opposite, Hyper-Literal interpretation to its precedented OT metaphorical scriptural usage.

Can you Cite any other NT teaching you believe is exactly polar opposite to the same language found in the OT? or is this the only one?

parousia70 · May 25, 2021

Love First said:
Ok I’ll give you an example. If you listen to a sermon by John MacArthur on Daniel 11 he claims it has dual fulfillment.

The Reign of Rebellion, Part 1

The Reign of Rebellion, Part 2

As My time is limited, and you have already gone through both sermons (presumably) would you be able to cut a paste the relevant paragraphs, where he claims Daniel 11 has already been fulfilled twice, here for me to examine and comment on?

Thx

Love First · May 25, 2021

parousia70 said:
I would encourage you to re-read my post #174 very closely.

As I laid out in great detail, According to scripture, There have been multiple, past "Day of the Lord Lord" events, and in each one, the same language is used:
Sun Darkening, Stars falling, earth splitting, mountains melting, universe collapsing, God riding a cloud, wielding His sword, land being made desolate, etc etc....

I am in agreement with @ViaCrucis, your need to Hyper-Literalize this language when you see it in the New testament seems to be based solely on your personal desire for it to be literal, and not on any Old testament scriptural teaching that is IS Literal, and in fact is based on you applying a completely Polar Opposite interpretation to its precedented OT scriptural usage.

Can you Cite any other NT teaching you believe is exactly polar opposite to the same language found in the OT? or is this the only one?

Have you checked what the commentators and Bible scholars say about Isaiah 13?

Isaiah Chapter 13

Love First · May 25, 2021

parousia70 said:
As My time is limited, and you have already gone through both sermons (presumably) would you be able to cut a paste the relevant paragraphs, where he claims Daniel 11 has already been fulfilled twice, here for me to examine and comment on?

Thx

No sorry I’m not going to give you a summary the sermons are very long and complex.

Tribulation Length

Psalm 144:1

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Psalm 144:1

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