Soft on Sin.

aiki

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I often hear Christians urging one another to be easy in their sin because God always forgives, His grace is greater than all their sin and, besides, no one's perfect. Believing these things, many Christians have settled into a pattern of sin>confess>sin>confess, 'round and 'round, nothing really changing, year after year living in unrelieved bondage to the World, the Flesh and the devil. They think that freedom from sin is only a future, heavenly reality experienced once one is dead and gone to glory.

This is not the Christian life laid out in the Bible, the life to which God calls all of His children. And a life crowded with sin is terribly, painfully costly. Yes, the one who is truly born-again is forever safe from the damning effects of sin; yes, where sin abounded God's grace did much more abound; yes, sinless perfection is attainable only on the far side of the grave. But, while all of these things are true, the following is also true:

1.) Sin always produces death:

Romans 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death...


James 1:15
15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.


Galatians 6:7-8
7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption...

Romans 8:6-8
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death...

Romans 8:13
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die...

There is, of course, first of all eternal death in hell in view in these verses, but, secondarily, there are other sorts of "death" that will inevitably afflict the sinner, too. For the Christian who has escaped the danger of eternal "second death" in hell but sins, the first casualty of their sin is their fellowship with God (But NOT their relationship to Him). Sin cuts the believer off from joyful, intimate communion with their Heavenly Father; their fellowship with Him "dies" when they sin.

Psalm 66:18
18 If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;


Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.


1 Peter 3:12
12 "For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, and his ears attend to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil."


Hebrews 12:14
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:


God is the Christian's "exceeding great reward." There is nothing in all of Creation that exceeds in wonder, power and excellency God Almighty. When He offers to us Himself, then, He is offering to us the very greatest, the very best thing, in the entire universe. It's all downhill from Him; all else is necessarily lesser, duller, and weaker than He. It is from this incredible divine Gift, it is from joyful, contented, peaceful fellowship with God our Lord and King, Maker of Heaven and Earth, that we remove ourselves when we sin. This is the first and great cost of sin in the believer's life.

A biblical example of this is illustrated in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. (Luke 15:11-32) While the son never lost his relationship to his father - he never ceased at any point in the story to be his father's son - his communion with his father was totally prevented by his profligate waywardness. Father and son could not fellowship together so long as the son was off in a far country, living wild. The Father points this out when, upon his son's return, he says that his son who was "dead" and "lost" is "alive again" and "found." The son was never actually, physically dead, and he knew always where he was, and at no point was he not his father's son, but their fellowship together had "died," it had been "lost," while the son was off being prodigal. The same holds true for the "prodigal" believer who yields to a life of sin and wanders from God.

Of course, if God is small in one's eyes, distant and mysterious, just a religious accessory to living, if one is still chasing the garish, noisy, sensually-stimulating things of the flesh, the World and the devil, if one has not yet tired of the unending and damaging pursuit of such things, the loss of fellowship with God will seem insignificant. But, when one has "tasted and seen that the Lord is good," when one has found holy rest, peace, joy and love in fellowship with God, the "death" of that intimate communion with Him is the very worst of the penalties that sin places upon the believer.

There are other sorts of "death" that sin produces in the life of the Christian believer. When fellowship with God is halted by the believer's sin, the joy, peace, satisfaction, and rest found in Him "die," too. One, or course, cannot enjoy these things that emanate from God when one has stifled one's communion with Him. In their absence, fear, bitterness, lust, anger and such like take root, bearing more deadly, sinful "fruit" in the believer's life.

The believer's fellowship with other holy, Christ-centered people also erodes - and often halts entirely, too - when the believer sins. Rather than taking joy in the holy fellowship of the saints, the sinning believer will find the holiness of the saints's living a painful provocation, convicting and indicting their sin. Isolation of this sort, "death" of communion among believers, is always the result of sin.


2.) Sin hardens, blinds and deafens.

Jeremiah 13:22-23
22 And if you say in your heart, ‘Why have these things come upon me?’ it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up and you suffer violence.
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then also you can do good who are accustomed to do evil.


Romans 2:5
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

Hebrews 3:13
13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”


1 Timothy 4:2
2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

Ephesians 4:18-19
18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;
19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.


There isn't a sort of neutral ground on which one stands as a believer while engaging in sin. All believers are, every day, moving toward God or away from Him. But it isn't mere relational distance from God that results from sin. Those believers who, engaging in sin, are moving away from Him, move into an ever-hardening habit of sin, into self-deception, becoming seared in their conscience, darkened in their understanding, and overtaken by sensuality and impurity. Such believers "return to the vomit of sin," they wallow in the filth of the pigpen of sin. How, then, can believers urge each other to be easy about their sin? This is an utterly rotten thing to encourage in fellow believers! It is, in fact, downright evil.

Paul had it exactly right:

2 Timothy 2:20-22
20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.


Romans 13:12-14
12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.
13 Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts.


FLEE from sin. Don't give it an inch! Don't make the slightest provision for it in your life!

Ephesians 5:8-12
8 for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
9 (for the fruit of the Light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth),
10 trying to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.
11 Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
12 for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.
 
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Sidon

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I often hear Christians urging one another to be easy in their sin because God always forgives, His grace is greater than all their sin and, besides, no one's perfect. Believing these things, many Christians have settled into a pattern of sin>confess>sin>confess,
.

Sinning and confessing is not so much related to lazy discipleship, or being backslidden, as it is to prooving that a believer does not understand how to stop sinning.

"The power of sin, is the LAW". The dominion of the law, empowers the law, that empowers sin.
Are you under the law, or are you under Grace.?
A non- believer can't be under Grace, and a born gain can be under both.
If you are under the dominion of the law, and are trying to stay saved, then you are sinning and confessing and have no power.
So, if a believer is trying to stop sinning by striving to stop.... that is will power that is related to this verse... "apart from me you can do NOTHING".
And that "nothing" includes not being able to stop sinning.

God created Salvation as a total package.
And just like you could not stop sinning before you were saved, is the same issue, after you are saved, if you are trying to do it by willpower, or striving.

The blood of Jesus as the Grace of God....
It removes sin, it pardons eternally, an it empowers you to live holy.
Its the empowering to live holy that Paul describes as..>>"CHRIST always gives me the VICTORY". and
"as many as be PERFECT"...
So, when a believer does not have the victory over sin, over self, and over the world, then they are found "confessing and sinning".

What is the key? What is the answer, the solution?
Its simple, you rest in the Grace of God, fully convinced that your salvation is assured and eternal.
You take the burden of your salvation OFF OF YOURSELF, and Give it back to Christ on the Cross, where it belongs.
Once you get there in the mind of your faith, you are living here. Hebrews 13:9. And once you live THERE, in the Grace of God, you find your rest from the law, and striving to be good which is your deliverance.
 
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aiki

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Thanks for your comments! They're very interesting.

Sinning and confessing is not so much related to lazy discipleship, or being backslidden, as it is to prooving that a believer does not understand how to stop sinning.

I've lived long enough now within the Church and discipled sufficient numbers of men to see that the cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession into which so many believer settle is related to ignorance, yes, but ALSO to poor or nonexistent discipleship (and a lot of people thinking they're saved when they aren't).

"The power of sin, is the LAW". The dominion of the law, empowers the law, that empowers sin.

What do these phrases mean, exactly? "The dominion of the law, empowers the law, that empowers sin" sounds very theological but you offer no explanation of what you mean by this.

As I understand it, the statement, "The power of sin is the law" expresses the fearful, condemning effect of knowing clearly and concretely what it is that God calls sin. "Through the law comes the knowledge of sin," Paul wrote (Romans 3:20), and with that knowledge comes the responsibility to keep it and the guilt and condemnation produced by failing to do so. (See also Romans 5:13)

Are you under the law, or are you under Grace.?
A non- believer can't be under Grace, and a born gain can be under both.

Yes. I agree.

If you are under the dominion of the law, and are trying to stay saved, then you are sinning and confessing and have no power.

Well, I hope you understood from my OP that I don't hold to the idea that the believer is responsible for their salvation, for preserving their relationship with God. I took pains, I thought, to make this point clear:

"...the one who is truly born-again is forever safe from the damning effects of sin;"

"...the first casualty of their sin is their fellowship with God (But NOT their relationship to Him)."

"While the son never lost his relationship to his father - he never ceased at any point in the story to be his father's son - ....The same holds true for the "prodigal" believer who yields to a life of sin and wanders from God."

It isn't the believer's salvation, their relationship to God, that is at risk when the believer sins, but their communion, their fellowship with Him.

Anyway, I am in agreement that thinking to work for one's salvation misunderstands the Gospel profoundly and suggests one is not truly saved and powerless, as a result, to live a holy life.

So, if a believer is trying to stop sinning by striving to stop.... that is will power that is related to this verse... "apart from me you can do NOTHING".

Um...hmmm...I agree that a believer who is "striving to stop sinning" mistakes the basis upon which the Christian life works. But we aren't mere puppets, either, acting without any exertion of will at all, taking no concrete action except what God compels us to take. Philippians 2:12-23 describes, I believe, the proper state-of-affairs spiritually in this area:

12 ...work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


The believer works out only what God has first worked into the believer in the Person of the Holy Spirit.

And just like you could not stop sinning before you were saved, is the same issue, after you are saved, if you are trying to do it by willpower, or striving.

Yes, I've written on this head in other threads in this subforum.

The blood of Jesus as the Grace of God....
It removes sin, it pardons eternally, an it empowers you to live holy.

Can you show me a verse which says, "The blood of Jesus empowers the believer to holiness"? His blood cleanses us from all sin, yes; Christ's blood was shed in expression of God's grace to all sinners, gaining for them God's forgiveness, yes; through Christ's shed blood we are justified, yes. But I can't think of any place in Scripture, just off the top of my head, that indicates Christ's shed blood itself imparts power for holy living to the believer.

Its the empowering to live holy that Paul describes as..>>"CHRIST always gives me the VICTORY". and
"as many as be PERFECT"...
So, when a believer does not have the victory over sin, over self, and over the world, then they are found "confessing and sinning".

Through what means is the victory of Christ imparted to the Christian believer? Scripture indicates pretty clearly that this is accomplished in and through the Holy Spirit, "the Spirit of Christ," Paul calls him in Romans 8:9.

What is the key? What is the answer, the solution?
Its simple, you rest in the Grace of God, fully convinced that your salvation is assured and eternal.

Hmmm...is this what the Bible lays out as the "key"? What does it mean to "rest in the grace of God," exactly? How does being confident in one's salvation bring about consistent victory over sin?

You take the burden of your salvation OFF OF YOURSELF, and Give it back to Christ on the Cross, where it belongs.

If one is trying to earn salvation, this is good advice. But is it what the Bible lays out as the means of the believer's daily deliverance from sin?

Once you get there in the mind of your faith, you are living here.

"Get there" sounds like work, like something one has to do in order to achieve a particular result. But, as you pointed out, "we can do nothing" in-and-of ourselves. (John 15:5) How do we "get there in the mind of our faith," if we are powerless to do so?

And once you live THERE, in the Grace of God, you find your rest from the law, and striving to be good which is your deliverance.

This sounds like the way to be free of the impossible effort of saving oneself, but I don't see how it is the way a saved person lives free of sin every day...
 
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Sidon

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aren't).

What do these phrases mean, exactly? "The dominion of the law, empowers the law, that empowers sin" sounds very theological but you offer no explanation of what you mean by this.
.

IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Christ has redeemed the born again from the curse of the law".

the "curse of the law" is : '"the power of sin, IS the law".

So, to be delivered from the law is to be delivered from the curse of the law.
The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.
This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Jesus said..>"Apart from me you can do NOTHING">.
So, when a person is apart, when they are trying to do, by willpower, and striving, only what God can empower you to do, then you sin and repent and confess, and can't ever stop, completely.
Paul was once stuck in this cycle, and wrote "who will deliver me..... for what i would do, i dont do, and what i dont want to do, i do".
And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it? But, that is the case with most Christians.
Which explains why most Christians have the false idea that you are supposed to sin and confess.
But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.
So they are trying to do it, and therefore "apart from me you can do NOTHING"< is in full force within their broken discipleship.
When this happens, the person has begun to try to stay saved, of themselves.
Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".
Imagine believing that you of yourself have the same capacity as Christ's Blood.
And that is what most believers are engaged in, as their mistaken idea of God's Grace.
Paul refers to this as "who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth."
Paul refers to these born again as being ""in the flesh".
The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.
To have gotten into self saving or to have fallen from Grace, is to come to a place where you are trying by performance, by self effort, to do what only the Grace of God has provided, based on the Blood Atonement. And Saint this has already been accomplished for you, 2000 yrs ago, as "The GIFT of Salvation".
 
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Sidon

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Can you show me a verse which says, "The blood of Jesus empowers the believer to holiness"? .

The blood atonement creates our reconciliation to God, and keeps us reconciled.
No Blood, no reconciliation.
No Blood, no eternal life.
No Blood, no forgiveness.
So, Salvation begins and end's with God's Blood. (Jesus is God).
John 14:6, says that Jesus is THE WAY to God, and that specifically means, the SHED BLOOD of Jesus.

This shed Blood has power.
How do we know?
Well, Its not just blood, its God's Blood, and that is why from 2000 yrs ago its still redeeming and bringing reconciliation to the world, = 2000 yrs after it was shed.
Jesus's blood that was shed 2000 yrs ago, saved you, saved me, 2000 yrs later.
Tomorrow and forever, God's shed blood will still be redeeming, forgiving, and reconciling.
There is "power in the blood", and that is a fact.
We the born again, are "blood bought" and that is Salvation and Grace.

So, when i say...>"the blood empowers".......this is to understand that the Blood of God, is the GRACE of God.
The Grace of God is the blood atonement, and in this blood, in this reconciliation, we find the only power we have to live holy.
When Jesus says...>"apart from me you can do nothing"......well, the part of Him we have, is His BLOOD Atonement and His Spirit in us.
And this is God's Grace, and in this, we find our "Christ always gives me the Victory" that Paul is defining.
 
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The distinction between legalism and lawlessness/license is always a delicate issue; putting too much emphasis either side would cause half of the believers to come with the accusation of abusing the grace of God.

I think one the best sermon/writing dealing with this issue is Sinclair Fergusson's "The Whole Christ: Legalism, Antinomianism, and Gospel Assurance—Why the Marrow Controversy Still Matters". In it, Fergusson describes that both the legalist and antinomian are two different expressions of the same side of the coin, that is the separation of God's character and God's law.

To begin with, God gave his law as an expression of His just, merciful, loving and kind character; as Paul asserts that "love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:10). God's law signifies His favour, but in our fallen state, we begin to see the law as a barrier to His favour instead of an expression of it.

Now it is true that our disobedience to the Law has separated us from God, and that separation leads to death. But knowing this, we cannot achieve reconciliation by going back to the law and trying to keep it on our own terms. Trying to get back to that "clean slate" is as impossible as--like Nicodimus said--"[entering] a second time into their mother’s womb to be born (again)." (John 3:4)

Regeneration can only be achieved by the Holy Spirit (John 3:6), that is given to those who is in Christ, who has paid for the death penalty we should have received for our rebellion.

Now, just to be clear, Christ's offer of forgiveness should not be seen as:
1) sin is no longer a big deal
2) the law is now irrelevant
3) obedience is no longer necessary

At the same time, because "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18), we should not look at the sin we've committed and think to ourselves, "because I have sinned, God hates me now, and I am going to hell."

That sort of attitude causes us to be more preoccupied by our blemishes instead of God's kindness, and as a worship leader of mine once said, "it glorifies/idolizes sin" and is itself a sin.

I've lived long enough now within the Church and discipled sufficient numbers of men to see that the cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession into which so many believer settle is related to ignorance, yes, but ALSO to poor or nonexistent discipleship (and a lot of people thinking they're saved when they aren't).

Yes, I agree that that's a problem in today's churches that seems to separate being a "believer" and being a "disciple", as if the latter is an advanced-level Christianity that's optional to those who are particularly devout. The fact is, an individual's self-motivation to pursue righteousness and walk the narrow way is almost never enough without the guidance of more mature believers and accountability to fellow Christians. God is able to empower us to overcome Sin, but he usually does it through other believers.

I think the reason confessions often become meaningless and don't produce change is because people don't have the right understanding/attitude of what it entails. Confessions are not a coin you put into the forgiveness vending machine, so to speak. A confession is an acknowledgement of our sin, which requires a proper understanding on what it means to sin before God. It calls for us to see through God's perspective and His understanding of right and wrong to realise why what we the thing we are confessiong about has indeed violated his ways when perhaps the rest of the world tells us they are okay.

Can you show me a verse which says, "The blood of Jesus empowers the believer to holiness"? His blood cleanses us from all sin, yes; Christ's blood was shed in expression of God's grace to all sinners, gaining for them God's forgiveness, yes; through Christ's shed blood we are justified, yes. But I can't think of any place in Scripture, just off the top of my head, that indicates Christ's shed blood itself imparts power for holy living to the believer.

John 15:5 conveys the idea that "apart from [Him], we can do nothing." Bearing fruit is the surest sign that we are living a holy life, and we cannot bear fruit without abiding in Christ. Also there's this verse in James 4:6-7, " But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you," seems to hint at the idea that unless you have humbled yourself before God and asked for his grace, we do not have the strength to resist the devil and his temptations.

Hmmm...is this what the Bible lays out as the "key"? What does it mean to "rest in the grace of God," exactly? How does being confident in one's salvation bring about consistent victory over sin?

I interpreted this as inclining our hearts and minds on who God is and what He's done for us than our circumstances and our actions. It keeps us in harmony with God's will and enables His power to work in us.
 
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aiki

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IN the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the law

2. Under Grace.

The born again, are...>"not under the law but under Grace".
While all the Christ rejectors, the unsaved, are "under the law".
However, a born again person can go back under the law, while being born again, and when that happens, the power of the law, this dominion, reenlists their flesh.
This is why they can't stop sinning and confessing.

"Go back under the law" means, I take it, that the born-again Christian begins to think, consciously or unconsciously, that they can merit God's favor by their good deeds, that by obedience to His commands, they can secure their salvation. There are a number of such folk preaching this sort of belief right here on CF.

"The power of the law, this dominion, re-enlists their flesh." The "power" of the law is the power to render a person guilty before God, right? This is what you mean, yes? The law shows every person incapable of keeping God's law perfectly; it's an unattainable standard that condemns those who cannot keep it. This is the "power of the law."

I'm not sure what you mean by the law "re-enlisting the flesh." It sounds like you think the law is an actual conscious entity with power to provoke people into its service, but I'm sure this is not what you mean. You're merely waxing literary, I think. It is actually Self, the "old man" of Romans 6:6, that is provoking fleshly law-keeping. Would you agree?

And the "can't stop sinning and confessing" is the by-product of the impotence of the flesh, of Self, to accomplish the will of God.

The curse is the law's dominion which empowers the flesh to sin.

I don't understand this statement. The Flesh doesn't need the Law, or some "power" emanating from the Law, to sin. Long before the Mosaic Law or the Ten Commandments were issued, men were guilty of great evil. They were so evil, in fact, that God resorted to the Great Flood in judgment upon them. So, how, then, does the law empower the flesh to sin? And what of Paul's statement concerning the Law?:

Romans 7:12
12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.


This is the vicious cycle of the flesh that most believers are trapped within.
They are tying by will power to do what only the Grace of God can provide, and that is...
""Christ always gives me the Victory"..

Yes, most believers are trapped in a vicious cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession. And, yes, it is because they are relying upon the wrong power source entirely and are attempting to obey for the wrong reasons.

What does it mean that "Christ always gives me the victory"? If this were so, how was Paul caught in the struggle he described in Romans 7? Clearly, Christ didn't always give Paul the victory, or he would never have struggled with sin as he described, right? So, what's going on, then? How is Paul always given the victory by Christ but yet failing in his struggle with sin? Why didn't Christ's victory overpower sin in Paul's life?

And oddly enough about 99% of the body of Christ, never read the rest of what he wrote, as they stop right there, but Paul doesn't. Paul goes on to explain "But Christ always gives me the VICTORY">..... as that is where he ends up.......Yet most believers, stop with ...>"oh wretched man that i am"..
So, that is very odd, isn't it?

It's odd, yes, and very sad, which is why I write as I have in the OP of this thread.

But this is not the case.
We are to end up on earth, DOWN HERE, as...>"as many as be PERFECT"< and "the fullness of the Stature of Christ".

Position versus condition, brother. All born-again believers are made perfect in Christ which is their spiritual position and identity as children of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30). But it takes a lifetime to learn to live in manifestation of this position and identity.

Christians can "fall from grace".
They can revert to faith in self vs faith in Christ.
Most believers agree that Christ saves them, but few BELIEVE that Christ's Blood keeps them saved.

Hmmm...I'm not so sure. The reverse seems to be the case, in my experience.

Imagine a twisted theology that taught them...."well, Christ started it, but now you finish it".

Unfortunately, I don't have to imagine. This thinking was in the Church right from the start:

Galatians 3:2-3
2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


The flesh is the "natural mind" or the "carnal mind". The flesh is self righteousness., or trying to make self right with God, by SELF effort.

Yup. True.

So, you have a believer who has gotten away from faith in Christ, and has become "faith in self", or "faith in FAITH", vs, real faith in Jesus as all that is necessary for us to be REDEEMED.

How has the believer fallen into this state and how, if he can do nothing, in-and-of himself, to get out of it, can any change be effected?

The blood atonement creates our reconciliation to God, and keeps us reconciled.
No Blood, no reconciliation.
No Blood, no eternal life.
No Blood, no forgiveness.
So, Salvation begins and end's with God's Blood. (Jesus is God).
John 14:6, says that Jesus is THE WAY to God, and that specifically means, the SHED BLOOD of Jesus.

Well, you have described the means of salvation but not how the blood of Christ itself is the power that allows one to live in victory over the World, the Flesh and the devil. It seems to me that the Bible indicates that the Holy Spirit is the Power Source of the Christian's life. (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13; Philippians 2:13, etc.)

This shed Blood has power.
How do we know?
Well, Its not just blood, its God's Blood, and that is why from 2000 yrs ago its still redeeming and bringing reconciliation to the world, = 2000 yrs after it was shed.

Chapter and verse, please.

So, if Jesus had just drained blood from himself and sacrificed it on an altar, we could all still have been saved? If our redemption is located in the fact of Christ's shed blood being divine blood, why the suffering and death of the cross?

So, when i say...>"the blood empowers".......this is to understand that the Blood of God, is the GRACE of God.
The Grace of God is the blood atonement, and in this blood, in this reconciliation, we find the only power we have to live holy.

Is there a verse that says, "the blood of God is the grace of God"? Or at least something very close?

Isn't the grace of God expressed in the shed blood of Christ for our sins? And isn't the reconciliation of sinners to God the consequence of his shed blood? It makes things...murky, confusing, to talk like you do about these things, mashing them up together as though they are all one thing.
 
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aiki

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The distinction between legalism and lawlessness/license is always a delicate issue; putting too much emphasis either side would cause half of the believers to come with the accusation of abusing the grace of God.

I wanted to avoid such a discussion, focusing in my OP upon the consequences of sin, instead. I'm not interested in a legalistic detailing of precisely how people should behave, but in pointing out that dallying with sin, indulging in it, is a dangerous business.

When a child of God is walking well with God, desiring and experiencing daily intimate communion with Him, holiness is the natural result. Marking out where precisely all the boundaries between sin and righteousness are is the interest of the carnal believer, not the one who knows and loves God.

The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18), we should not look at the sin we've committed and think to ourselves, "because I have sinned, God hates me now, and I am going to hell."

That sort of attitude causes us to be more preoccupied by our blemishes instead of God's kindness, and as a worship leader of mine once said, "it glorifies/idolizes sin" and is itself a sin.

I wasn't, I think, encouraging folks to grow preoccupied with sin, but merely to recognize that sin isn't just morally evil but produces distinct, damaging effects in the sinner: spiritual hardness, deafness, blindness, corruption and, worst of all, the "death" of fellowship with God.

The fact is, an individual's self-motivation to pursue righteousness and walk the narrow way is almost never enough without the guidance of more mature believers and accountability to fellow Christians. God is able to empower us to overcome Sin, but he usually does it through other believers.

Interesting. I don't know as I'd agree with you here entirely. I'd most certainly agree that the guidance and support of mature believers is extremely helpful but I wouldn't say it is necessary. You seem to acknowledge this when you wrote "almost never enough." I don't, though, think God empowers us to overcome sin through other believers. Again, they are very helpful in providing prayerful support, but the way to freedom from sin that Paul lays out in Romans 6 is focused on the believer's identity in Christ (Romans 6:6), living by faith in that identity (Romans 6:11), and walking with God in constant submission to Him as His bond-servant/slave (Romans 6:22).

I think the reason confessions often become meaningless and don't produce change is because people don't have the right understanding/attitude of what it entails. Confessions are not a coin you put into the forgiveness vending machine, so to speak.

Amen!

It calls for us to see through God's perspective and His understanding of right and wrong to realise why what we the thing we are confessiong about has indeed violated his ways when perhaps the rest of the world tells us they are okay.

Amen, again!

John 15:5 conveys the idea that "apart from [Him], we can do nothing." Bearing fruit is the surest sign that we are living a holy life, and we cannot bear fruit without abiding in Christ.

Yes, I was looking for a verse that explicitly stated that the power of the believer's life was located in the shed blood of Christ. As far as I'm aware, there is no such verse. Such power resides in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, according to Scripture.

That is why Scripture says: “God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble.” Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you," seems to hint at the idea that unless you have humbled yourself before God and asked for his grace, we do not have the strength to resist the devil and his temptations.

This is, I believe, the "key" to "successful" Christian living. Romans 6:18-22, Romans 8:14, Romans 12:1, James 4:7-10, and 1 Peter 5:6 all point to submission to God as fundamental and vital to walking rightly with Him.

I interpreted this as inclining our hearts and minds on who God is and what He's done for us than our circumstances and our actions. It keeps us in harmony with God's will and enables His power to work in us.

And for the believer who struggles to be so inclined? Who is "out of harmony" with God and feeling impotent even to want to sort things out between himself and God? What can be done? In discipleship, this is the sort of circumstance I have encountered quite often. The common pat answers don't work, I can tell you.
 
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aiki

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It says that God's grace instructs us.

Titus 2:11-14
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


Maybe we've got our wires crossed. I thought you were offering me a verse that said Christ's blood provides us with the power to live holy lives. Not sure how this passage fits the bill. Verse 12 does, as you say, indicate that God's grace "instructs" or "trains" us in holy living but where is the bit I was asking about that says Christ's blood empowers us to live holy lives? What are you seeing in these verses that I'm not?
 
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Ceallaigh

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I believe it's supposed to be about a relationship, not a series of Bible verses. I get the feeling some go by an arsenal of Bible verses, backing up either the works side or the grace side, but lack having a deep meaningful relationship with the Lord.
 
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aiki

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I believe it's supposed to be about a relationship, not a series of Bible verses.

How do you know about the relationship you can have with God without the Bible verses that tell you about it?

I get the feeling some go by an arsenal of Bible verses, backing up either the works side or the grace side, but lack having a deep meaningful

Yup, there probably are some like you describe. But there are many others who have an "arsenal of Bible verses" and enjoy deep, joyful fellowship with God. Scripture and fellowship aren't mutually-exclusive things, right?
 
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@aiki Well, it seems we are mostly in agreement, then. :) I understand that we are not to relax our view on sin, and sin does not become "less bad" just because forgiveness is available, just as you shouldn't deliberately cut yourself up, just because there's a first aid kit available. My point is that when we want to teach the importance obedience, we need to be careful that we don't overemphasize on the "to-do"s, so that the believers don't lose sight of Christ and His grace. Ideally, the preaching on sin should lead people to run to God to receive his mercy, instead of from God to escape his judment.

As for the issue of achieving sanctification and spiritual fellowship, I was thinking of verses 1 Corinthians 12:12-14 and Proverbs 18:1. The idea is that while individuals are accountable for their own faith, just as people can't survive without other in their regular living despite acknowledging God's providence, we can't really expect to make it on our own in our spiritual living as well. Think of passages like Psalm 127:1, "Unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the guards stand watch in vain," - just because God is at work through the builders' labour, and the guards' watch, we would never say that these people are thus unnecessary.

As for the last point, "synchronizing" ourselves with God does require discipline, but in my experience, people don't get into that habit of that discipline without having at least another believer to whom we are accountable for the progress: whether as disciples following the guidance of more mature believers, or as mentors giving examples to newer believers. I said "almost" in my previous statement because I don't want to imply that our self-discipline and submission have absolutely no part in our growth, and therefore we should just let everyone else (whether God or other people) do all the work. And once that habit is built, it is possible for that person to continue the discipline even if circumstances causes them to lose regular contact with the community.
 
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Ceallaigh

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How do you know about the relationship you can have with God without the Bible verses that tell you about it?



Yup, there probably are some like you describe. But there are many others who have an "arsenal of Bible verses" and enjoy deep, joyful fellowship with God. Scripture and fellowship aren't mutually-exclusive things, right?

It seems like it's mostly about proof text.
 
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aiki

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It seems like it's mostly about proof text.

What is the "it" you're talking about?

And, again, how do you know anything but the most general things about God apart from His word? How is it that we know He desires fellowship with us except the Bible tells us so? How would we know in what way to approach God but for the truth of Scripture? But for the declaration of God's word, how do we know God is imminent in His Creation and not drawn off into some other universe, leaving us alone to sort things out for ourselves?

Psalms 1
Matthew 4:4
2 Timothy 3:16-17
 
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"Go back under the law" means, I take it, that the born-again Christian begins to think, consciously or unconsciously, that they can merit God's favor by their good deeds, that by obedience to His commands, they can secure their salvation. There are a number of such folk preaching this sort of belief right here on CF.
"The power of the law, this dominion, re-enlists their flesh." The "power" of the law is the power to render a person guilty before God, right? This is what you mean, yes? The law shows every person incapable of keeping of God's law perfectly; it's an unattainable standard that condemns those who cannot keep it. This the "power of the law."

"Go back under the law" means, I take it, that the born-again Christian begins to think, consciously or unconsciously, that they can merit God's favor by their good deeds, that by obedience to His commands, they can secure their salvation. There are a number of such folk preaching this sort of belief right here on CF.""""""

-----------------------------------

To go back under the law, means to "fall from Grace".
If a believer does this, then they are back "in the flesh".
The simple test is to find out if a person believes they can lose their salvation.
If they do then then are trying to keep themselves saved, and that is proof they are fallen from Grace, and into self saving....or "here is what i have to do to keep from going to hell".

See that LIST?
=
fallen from Grace"

A believer believes that Christ keeps them saved or they have become apart from faith in Christ to do it, and now they are trying to keep themselves saved. That is "in the Flesh" or "fallen from Grace".
-----------------------



""""""""""""The power of the law, this dominion, re-enlists their flesh."
I'm not sure what you mean by the law "re-enlisting the flesh." It sounds like you think the law is an actual conscious entity with power to provoke people into its service,
And the "can't stop sinning and confessing" is the by-product of the impotence of the flesh, of Self, to accomplish the will of God."""""""""""""""""

In the time of the Gentiles, there are 2 dominions.

1. Under the Law
2. Under Grace

Both have power, the power of dominion.

So, if you are a believer under the law, if you are a legalist, then you have this curse on you.
"the power of SIN< is the LAW".
And that power, that dominion, will cause you flesh to desire to sin more than you are able to deny it.
tt will in fact make you SIN CONSCIOUS.
Our willpower is no match for "the power of SIN is the Law".

If you are under Grace, (correct Faith) then you are this..>"Christ has REDEEMED US from the
CURSE of THE LAW".
And that means the power of the law which enflames your flesh,,,,, this " curse"", has been resolved by the Blood of Jesus.
And the way you keep it so, is to never fall from Grace.
In other words, to be UNDER Grace, this dominion , is maintained based on how you believe.
Paul said of those who left correct faith or "fell from Grace"......Paul said, "who has bewitched you", that you have left real faith, and are now "in the Flesh", or in the carnal mind of faith.
Wrong faith is carnal or a "flesh" type faith.
This is why you are to "prove that you be in THE Faith"......not just any, but "THE" Faith.
AS if you are in the wrong faith, you are fallen from Grace, and are back in "the flesh".
Wrong faith is usually wrong Theology.
So, as long as you faith is fully committed into Christ's Righteousness making you and keeping you righteous only by of the Blood of Jesus, ;.....then you stay "under Grace" and are in THE Faith.

We are not talking about no longer being saved, but rather, staying out of the "flesh", or the natural mind that always leads us to try to do for ourselves (self righteousness) only what God's Grace has already accomplished as "the Gift of Righteousness" 2000 yrs ago.


"""""""""""""""""I don't understand this statement. The Flesh doesn't need the Law, or some "power" emanating from the Law, to sin. Long before the Mosaic Law or the Ten Commandments were issued, men were guilty of great evil. They were so evil, in fact, that God resorted to the Great Flood in judgment upon them. So, how, then, does the law empower the flesh to sin? And what of Paul's statement concerning the Law?:

Romans 7:12
12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."""""""""""""


The Law is good, and the commandments are holy.
But we are not.
We are "sold under sin", we are sinners, ... So, this means that all the Law does is judge us as being unholy.
So, while the Law and Commandments themselves, are pure, .....they also define us as being sinners.
This is why Paul said that the Law is our "schoolteacher"......as it instructs us to SEE who we are, and what we are, which then informs us that we need to be SAVED.
WE need to let God deal with our SIN on THE Cross.




"""""""""""Yes, most believers are trapped in a vicious cycle of sin>confession>sin>confession. And, yes, it is because they are relying upon the wrong power source entirely and are attempting to obey for the wrong reasons.
What does it mean that "Christ always gives me the victory"? If this were so, how was Paul caught in the struggle he described in Romans 7? Clearly, Christ didn't always give Paul the victory, """"""""""


Paul had to learn that the only righteousness that God accepts, is God's own.
He had to understand , just as we do that all our effort to be accepted by God, is as Paul defines it, in Philippians 3, "DUNG".
So, what Paul had to do, was leave the striving and the straining and the emotional willpower, behind, and come to the place where he understood that God had already made him Righteous.
And that is the transition you find when Paul is teaching....>>"that which i dont want to do, i do, and that which i do want to do, i can't do"......So see that? That is the person, the believer who is trying to win the battle over sin, and over self, by WILL POWER.
You will fail.
So, once Paul recognized that "apart from me you can do nothing", Jesus said, then Paul began to REST in the Power of Jesus,. He began to REST in God's Grace, and that FREED him from SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS< that was the "that which i want to do, i can't do". problem.
When we do the same, we are also found as "Christ always gives me the Victory".
But until we learn to rest here...... Hebrews 13:9. then the believer will continue to have issues with self.




"""""""""""Position versus condition, brother. All born-again believers are made perfect in Christ which is their spiritual position and identity as children of God (2 Corinthians 5:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30). But it takes a lifetime to learn to live in manifestation of this position and identity.""""""""""


Paul says that we can be "Perfect".
So how?
The same way way he became perfect.
WE simply stop trying to do for ourselves, only what God can provide by Grace.
Its just a matter of learning to REST in Grace.
Its the moment when you fully trust in Christ to keep you saved, and realize that this can never change.
Its the moment when you realize that ETERNAL LIFE, is not temporary, and all the born again have Eternal Life.
Once you've seen this LIGHT...... then God will take it from there, and give you more revelation and more Grace.




"""""""""""""""Well, you have described the means of salvation but not how the blood of Christ itself is the power that allows one to live in victory over the World, the Flesh and the devil. It seems to me that the Bible indicates that the Holy Spirit is the Power Source of the Christian's life. (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13; Philippians 2:13, etc.) """"""""""""


The power is this....>"apart from me you can do nothing".

So, to be apart, is to have faith that is disconnected from where the power comes from.
This is "fallen from Grace".
This is "in the flesh".
This is" the natural mind " which can't receive from God or from God's Grace


"""""""""""So, if Jesus had just drained blood from himself and sacrificed it on an altar, we could all still have been saved? If our redemption is located in the fact of Christ's shed blood being divine blood, why the suffering and death of the cross?""""""""

Jesus had to shed blood and die.
"without the shedding of blood there is no remission of Sin".

So, blood shed, death, and resurrection all had to occur, and Jesus had to do it, as He is the only "WAY".

The reason for the Cross, is multiple, but one of the main ones is that the Old Testament proves the New Testament, and vice versa, by prophesy.
And one of the OT prophecies, is that Jesus would hang on a TREE, and would be "pierced", yet with no bones broken.
Remember also, that on the Cross, Jesus BECAME our SIN....and so, when He died, so did our sin.
Its gone.



""""""""""""Is there a verse that says, "the blood of God is the grace of God"? Or at least something very close?
Isn't the grace of expressed in the shed blood of Christ for our sins? And isn't the reconciliation of sinners to God the consequence of his shed blood? It makes things...murky, confusing, to talk like you do about these things, mashing them up together as though they are all one thing. """"""""""


Being born again is Proof that a person has been reconciled to God.
This happens when the blood of Jesus makes a person as righteous as God.
So, salvation, the event, is 2 part.

You have God's blood that makes you righteous, and then you have God's Spirit that birth's you into God's Spirit, by the Holy Spirit.
 
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