Any insightful science in the Bible?

JohnClay

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No I think there are six or so that Ross cites.

Astrophysics Points to the God of the Bible
Ok thanks....
5. Stretching the Heavens
1. Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:1
Psalm 104:2 says "he stretches out the heavens like a tent". That gives me the impression that the heavens began crumpled up then stretched out then stopped (like a tent). If the universe is going to expand faster than the speed of light forever then I think a tent is a poor metaphor.

If those verses mean the heavens have been continually expanding ever since the universe began then there would be evidence of that interpretation before the Big Bang theory came along.... so was there a form of Big Bang theory around in Bible times?

BTW tents are always propped up over a flat surface.... yet another passage that seems to favour a flat earth interpretation....
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Ok thanks....
5. Stretching the Heavens
1. Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:1
Psalm 104:2 says "he stretches out the heavens like a tent". That gives me the impression that the heavens began crumpled up then stretched out then stopped (like a tent). If the universe is going to expand faster than the speed of light forever then I think a tent is a poor metaphor.

If those verses mean the heavens have been continually expanding ever since the universe began then there would be evidence of that interpretation before the Big Bang theory came along.... so was there a form of Big Bang theory around in Bible times?

I think your asking too much of the Bible. The Bible already does a number of significant things when it comes to Cosmology different than the other world religions and philosophies that we take for granted. And in many ways it unreasonable to kind of expect the kinds of things you are asking because the Bible has to do double duty, namely not only does it have to stand the test of time being read by various future audiences (who often are quite a bit different than the Jews) but it has to be relatable to its original near Eastern audience, so it's kind of silly to expect some kind of ancient Cosmology scientific prophesy, when most of the people reading it in earlier times would not be able to appreciate it or relate to it!


And this by the way, is why all the ancient idioms and non scientific tropes are in the Bible, and the saying that the Bible is not a science book is very apt. There are some things we can point to here and there, but to expect a text to cater heavily to a modern audience is missing one of the key truths of Christian teaching. Namely, unlike Islam, the Judeo-Christian tradition does not see the Bible as purely Divine, but as a Divinely Inspired book, that also is the product of humanity (we expect it reflect the personality, culture etc. of the writers etc. and not something that is purely dictated by God to a human writer that is somehow above all that.)
 
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JohnClay

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I think your asking too much of the Bible. The Bible already does a number of significant things when it comes to Cosmology....
You mean that the universe had a beginning and the heavens were "stretched out"? It seems Old Earth Creationists pick and choose... the Bible gives the impression that the earth is as old as the heavens and that the stars are younger than the earth.... it would have been easy for the Bible to say that the heavens are incredibly ancient....
.....in many ways it unreasonable to kind of expect the kinds of things you are asking because the Bible has to do double duty, namely not only does it have to stand the test of time but it has to be relatable to its original near Eastern audience, so it kind of silly to expect some kind of ancient Cosmology scientific prophesy, when most of the people reading it in earlier times would not be able to appreciate it or relate to it! And this by the way, is why all the ancient idioms and non scientific tropes are in the Bible, and the saying that the Bible is not a science book is very apt.
So is the Bible always compatible with the flat Earth view and that we think with our heart, gut, etc, rather than head so that the people of the time could relate to it?
There are some things we can point to here and there, but to expect a text to cater heavily to a modern audience is missing one of the key truths of Christian teaching.
I thought it would be better to mention scientific truths than to use ancient beliefs like the heart being related to mental processes and the idea of a flat earth....
 
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coffee4u

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Many of the Old Testament laws were based on germs and spread of disease that the people at the time had no idea about.
For example the animals that they were allowed to eat and called clean, were in fact safest to eat from a health perspective. Pigs can spread diseases such as trichinosis and Ascaris. Rat meat could also pass on trichinosis and other diseases. Sheep and cattle can have disease but are unlikely to give more serious diseases.
Any fish that "looks like a fish" was considered clean, while oysters, clams, and other sea creatures are unclean. Fish were again safer to eat.

After the food there was other cleanliness laws and no these were not ceremonial but to do with the sanitation of everyday living.
All human waste including monthly blood and afterbirth were unclean, as well as cooking utensils and any object that had been touched (possible contamination) by people with running sores and disease.

Then there are smaller things like the stars are innumerable and each one is different.
Jeremiah 33:22

22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore."

1 Corinthians 15:41 "The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor."

Science use to believe there were only 1100 stars and that they were all the same.

The Isaiah 40:22 one isn't really correct although some translations use sphere. The verses there are meant to be poetic not a historical or scientific teaching.
 

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disciple Clint

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Is there anything related to physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, etc that is mentioned in the Bible that couldn't have just been reasoned about by thinkers and philosophers of the time? i.e. that suggests that the knowledge came from God rather than from people of the time?

Sometimes I hear about hygiene (which doctors didn't bother with until around the mid 1800s).... but that might just be about ceremonial cleanliness.

The Bible could have said that more than a thousand thousand thousand years ago the heavens were created as a speck that was incredibly hot. Then it spread out and formed the stars. Then more than a thousand thousand thousand years later the Sun, Earth and "wandering stars" (planets) were formed. (rather than the Bible seeming to say that the stars were formed before the Earth)

If you think those numbers are too big for the Bible consider these:
1 Chronicles 21:5 - 1,100,000 ("eleven times one hundred thousand")
Revelation 5:11 - "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands"

Or it could have said that our mind comes from our head.... instead it seems to be saying that our mental abilities come from our heart and gut, etc.

Note that I don't think there is anything in the Bible that contradicts the idea that the Earth is flat. Isaiah 40:22's "circle of the earth" could be interpreted as talking about a ball but it doesn't contradict the idea that the earth is a flat disc.

Apparently some Christians say that the Bible isn't meant to be a science textbook. But I think its poetry could involve real science rather than seem to involve a very non-scientific world-view.

Creationists would say that the universe is really only a few thousand years old, just like the Bible implies but do you have any evidence that the universe is that old besides the genealogies in Genesis?
In numerous instances the Bible contains medical information that far predates man’s actual discoveries of related principles in the field of medicine. The medical instructions given by Moses to the Israelites some 3500 years ago were not only far superior to the practices of contemporary cultures, they also exceeded medical standards practiced as recently as 100 years ago. Where did Moses get this advanced information? Following are some examples of the medical knowledge afforded the Israelites in biblical times Medical Evidence - Evidences of the Bible
 
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JohnClay

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Many of the Old Testament laws were based on germs and spread of disease that the people at the time had no idea about.
Ok so that is something...
Germ theory of disease - Wikipedia
The Mosaic Law contains the earliest recorded sentiment of contagion in the spread of disease, standing in contrast with classical medical tradition and the Hippocratic writings. Specifically, it presents instructions on quarantine and washing in relation to leprosy and venereal disease

But it just involved techniques that were shown to work rather than explaining the science of it (little bacteria and viruses). Well it seems like there was a huge focus on the concept of cleanliness (kind of related to the gospel too)....

For example the animals that they were allowed to eat and called clean, were in fact safest to eat from a health perspective. Pigs can spread diseases such as trichinosis and Ascaris. Rat meat could also pass on trichinosis and other diseases. Sheep and cattle can have disease but are unlikely to give more serious diseases.
Any fish that "looks like a fish" was considered clean, while oysters, clams, and other sea creatures are unclean. Fish were again safer to eat.
What about Peter's vision which meant that all animals could be eaten? Were they suddenly all safe to eat now? (if I understand it properly)

After the food there was other cleanliness laws and no these were not ceremonial but to do with the sanitation of everyday living.
All human waste including monthly blood and afterbirth were unclean, as well as cooking utensils and any object that had been touched (possible contamination) by people with running sores and disease.
Leviticus 12:1-5
The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.​

Is it a scientific fact that a woman who gives birth to a girl is unhygienic longer than if it had been a boy? Though it seems to be about "ceremonial" cleanliness....
Note that Leviticus 12:2 in the KJV does not insert the word "ceremonially" in there.... it simply says "unclean".

Then there are smaller things like the stars are innumerable and each one is different.
Jeremiah 33:22

22 I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars in the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore."

1 Corinthians 15:41 "The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor."

Science use to believe there were only 1100 stars and that they were all the same.
Can you show that science believed there were only 1100 stars? It is true that the number of stars is similar to the number of sand grains - but not similar to the number of David's descendants....
The Isaiah 40:22 one isn't really correct although some translations use sphere. The verses there are meant to be poetic not a historical or scientific teaching.
Yes I guess all verses implying the earth is flat is poetic though it could have used a spherical earth in a poetic way too. And I guess using your heart for mental purposes is also poetic...
 
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JohnClay

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In numerous instances the Bible contains medical information that far predates man’s actual discoveries of related principles in the field of medicine. The medical instructions given by Moses to the Israelites some 3500 years ago were not only far superior to the practices of contemporary cultures, they also exceeded medical standards practiced as recently as 100 years ago. Where did Moses get this advanced information? Following are some examples of the medical knowledge afforded the Israelites in biblical times Medical Evidence - Evidences of the Bible
Well cleanliness seems to be a major focus of the Israelites... including having two doves be sacrificed to allow Mary to be "clean" after the birth....
Perhaps Peter's vision that no animals are unclean is why Christians ignored the other cleanliness rules in the dark ages and until quite recently....
That's a good article though!
 
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disciple Clint

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Well cleanliness seems to be a major focus of the Israelites... including having two doves be sacrificed to allow Mary to be "clean" after the birth....
Perhaps Peter's vision that no animals are unclean is why Christians ignored the other cleanliness rules in the dark ages and until very quite recently....
That's a good article though!
Matthew 15:11 English Standard Version (ESV) 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person."
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Is there anything related to physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, etc that is mentioned in the Bible that couldn't have just been reasoned about by thinkers and philosophers of the time? i.e. that suggests that the knowledge came from God rather than from people of the time?

Sometimes I hear about hygiene (which doctors didn't bother with until around the mid 1800s).... but that might just be about ceremonial cleanliness.

The Bible could have said that more than a thousand thousand thousand years ago the heavens were created as a speck that was incredibly hot. Then it spread out and formed the stars. Then more than a thousand thousand thousand years later the Sun, Earth and "wandering stars" (planets) were formed. (rather than the Bible seeming to say that the stars were formed before the Earth)

If you think those numbers are too big for the Bible consider these:
1 Chronicles 21:5 - 1,100,000 ("eleven times one hundred thousand")
Revelation 5:11 - "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands"

Or it could have said that our mind comes from our head.... instead it seems to be saying that our mental abilities come from our heart and gut, etc.

Note that I don't think there is anything in the Bible that contradicts the idea that the Earth is flat. Isaiah 40:22's "circle of the earth" could be interpreted as talking about a ball but it doesn't contradict the idea that the earth is a flat disc.

Apparently some Christians say that the Bible isn't meant to be a science textbook. But I think its poetry could involve real science rather than seem to involve a very non-scientific world-view.

Creationists would say that the universe is really only a few thousand years old, just like the Bible implies but do you have any evidence that the universe is that old besides the genealogies in Genesis?
Pangaea is in scripture. According to Genesis 10:25 and 1 Chronicles 1:19, it was during the time of Peleg that "the earth was divided" . Also the beginning of Genesis explains the layers of our atmosphere.
"6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day."
Be blessed.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Is there anything related to physics, chemistry, biology, geology, astronomy, etc that is mentioned in the Bible that couldn't have just been reasoned about by thinkers and philosophers of the time? i.e. that suggests that the knowledge came from God rather than from people of the time?

Sometimes I hear about hygiene (which doctors didn't bother with until around the mid 1800s).... but that might just be about ceremonial cleanliness.

The Bible could have said that more than a thousand thousand thousand years ago the heavens were created as a speck that was incredibly hot. Then it spread out and formed the stars. Then more than a thousand thousand thousand years later the Sun, Earth and "wandering stars" (planets) were formed. (rather than the Bible seeming to say that the stars were formed before the Earth)

If you think those numbers are too big for the Bible consider these:
1 Chronicles 21:5 - 1,100,000 ("eleven times one hundred thousand")
Revelation 5:11 - "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands"

Or it could have said that our mind comes from our head.... instead it seems to be saying that our mental abilities come from our heart and gut, etc.

Note that I don't think there is anything in the Bible that contradicts the idea that the Earth is flat. Isaiah 40:22's "circle of the earth" could be interpreted as talking about a ball but it doesn't contradict the idea that the earth is a flat disc.

Apparently some Christians say that the Bible isn't meant to be a science textbook. But I think its poetry could involve real science rather than seem to involve a very non-scientific world-view.

Creationists would say that the universe is really only a few thousand years old, just like the Bible implies but do you have any evidence that the universe is that old besides the genealogies in Genesis?
Another thought....Though still being studied by scientists, the question of why prehistoric mammals got so big or even the existence of human giants, can possibly be answered as to why they do not exist now , longevity was cut short.
Genesis 6
And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Another thought....Though still being studied by scientists, the question of why prehistoric mammals got so big or even the existence of human giants, can possibly be answered as to why they do not exist now , longevity was cut short.
Genesis 6
And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”

Man has continued to degenerate physically since the beginning.

Psalm 90:10
The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.
 
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JohnClay

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Pangaea is in scripture. According to Genesis 10:25 and 1 Chronicles 1:19, it was during the time of Peleg that "the earth was divided".
Pangaea - Wikipedia
Apparently Pangaea "began to break apart about 175 million years ago".... do you agree?
Also the beginning of Genesis explains the layers of our atmosphere.
"6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” 7 Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament; and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day."
Be blessed.
So separating the sea and the sky?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Pangaea - Wikipedia
Apparently Pangaea "began to break apart about 175 million years ago".... do you agree?

So separating the sea and the sky?
I don't know when it broke apart, could be just a small area but it does prove that such a thing is both scientifically true and biblically proven.

As far as the firmament, Genesis describes layers in our atmosphere which has also been scientifically proven. Per science:
Earth's atmosphere has five major and several secondary layers. From lowest to highest, the major layers are the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere.
There is water in comets and there is water in clouds and there is water in the oceans. I believe this is all the firmament.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I don't know when it broke apart, could be just a small area but it does prove that such a thing is both scientifically true and biblically proven.

As far as the firmament, Genesis describes layers in our atmosphere which has also been scientifically proven. Per science:
Earth's atmosphere has five major and several secondary layers. From lowest to highest, the major layers are the troposphere, stratosphere, mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere.
There is water in comets and there is water in clouds and there is water in the oceans. I believe this is all the firmament.
So now that I am thinking about this, the firmament may be the separation between our atmosphere and space where we know comets reside. Hmm.
 
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coffee4u

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Ok so that is something...
Germ theory of disease - Wikipedia
The Mosaic Law contains the earliest recorded sentiment of contagion in the spread of disease, standing in contrast with classical medical tradition and the Hippocratic writings. Specifically, it presents instructions on quarantine and washing in relation to leprosy and venereal disease

But it just involved techniques that were shown to work rather than explaining the science of it (little bacteria and viruses). Well it seems like there was a huge focus on the concept of cleanliness (kind of related to the gospel too)....

God never explained to them the reasons behind the laws. He wanted faith and trust from them, not for them to follow him out of well reasoned explanations. God knew mankind would eventually discover the why behind them for themselves.
Many of the laws had both a practical application and a spiritual one.


What about Peter's vision which meant that all animals could be eaten? Were they suddenly all safe to eat now? (if I understand it properly)

Good point. This one was spiritual in that it's referring to the gentiles as now being clean but also to the practical eating of animals. Perhaps hygiene and cooking standards had improved enough that the greater risk was now much less to them by then.

Leviticus 12:1-5
The Lord said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites: ‘A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.​

Is it a scientific fact that a woman who gives birth to a girl is unhygienic longer than if it had been a boy? Though it seems to be about "ceremonial" cleanliness....
Note that Leviticus 12:2 in the KJV does not insert the word "ceremonially" in there.... it simply says "unclean".

As I said laws had both practical and spiritual principles. I don't know if the longer time period was for practical or spiritual reasons. I am sure someone has more knowledge of this, I just posted what I knew about, I'm not claiming to be an expert on OT laws.

Can you show that science believed there were only 1100 stars? It is true that the number of stars is similar to the number of sand grains - but not similar to the number of David's descendants....

In the middle ages they believed the stars to be limited.

Yes I guess all verses implying the earth is flat is poetic though it could have used a spherical earth in a poetic way too. And I guess using your heart for mental purposes is also poetic...
There are no verses indicating the earth is flat, that's the thing. It's a a myth that the Bible teaches a flat earth. The earth looks like a circle from a distance. It could look like that if it was flat or spherical.
You can't build a doctrine on poetry. The same way Jesus is not a literal door. He has qualities of a door in that through him you have to go to the father but does anyone believe Jesus is a wooden door? I should hope not. Poetry certainly has truth in it, but if we are to build doctrines on it then trees have hands that clap and mountain flowers are singing. You can tell that passage in Isaiah is poetry as it goes on to call heaven a tent.
 
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JohnClay said:
Can you show that science believed there were only 1100 stars?
In the middle ages they believed the stars to be limited.
The middle ages has nothing to do with science. BTW there are many search results that say that there are 9000+ stars that can be visible to the naked eye.
There are no verses indicating the earth is flat, that's the thing. It's a a myth that the Bible teaches a flat earth.
There are a large number of Bible verses that are compatible with a flat earth and incompatible with a spherical earth. e.g. The Flat-Earth Bible.
I can't find the famous site that claims there are 200 related verses...
Are you aware of ANY Bible verses that are compatible with a spherical earth and incompatible with a flat earth?
Here is a pro-spherical earth Christian article....
Refuting flat earth - creation.com
I think it gives no examples of what I'm looking for and the pro-spherical earth arguments it gives that are incompatible with a flat earth ONLY involve science, not the Bible...
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So is the Bible always compatible with the flat Earth view and that we think with our heart, gut, etc, rather than head so that the people of the time could relate to it?

I thought it would be better to mention scientific truths than to use ancient beliefs like the heart being related to mental processes and the idea of a flat earth....

Actually the gut/brain and heart/brain connections are pretty well established.

Does your heart sense your emotional state? (today.com)
 
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JohnClay

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coffee4u

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The middle ages has nothing to do with science. BTW there are many search results that say that there are 9000+ stars that can be visible to the naked eye.

There are a large number of Bible verses that are compatible with a flat earth and incompatible with a spherical earth. e.g. The Flat-Earth Bible.
I can't find the famous site that claims there are 200 related verses...
Are you aware of ANY Bible verses that are compatible with a spherical earth and incompatible with a flat earth?
Here is a pro-spherical earth Christian article....
Refuting flat earth - creation.com
I think it gives no examples of what I'm looking for and the pro-spherical earth arguments it gives that are incompatible with a flat earth ONLY involve science, not the Bible...

I didn't reply to have an argument with you, you asked what there was and I provided some things. Dig into it yourself.

There are no verses claiming the earth is flat. I was given a long list once by a flat earth proponent and went over each and every one and none said the earth is flat. I am a Bible literalist, I believe in 6 day creation and a global flood, if the Bible taught flat earth I would believe that too -it doesn't.

All the Bible has to say on the shape of the earth is in that one verse of poetry in Isaiah that says it looks like a circle, so we can be sure it isn't a triangle or a cube. It is decidedly neutral if that circle is a sphere or flat- because that wasn't deemed as important. The verse is about God and people crafting idols not a teaching on the shape of the earth.
18 With whom, then, will you compare God?
To what image will you liken him?
19 As for an idol, a metalworker casts it,
and a goldsmith overlays it with gold
and fashions silver chains for it.
20 A person too poor to present such an offering
selects wood that will not rot;
they look for a skilled worker
to set up an idol that will not topple.

21 Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
Has it not been told you from the beginning?
Have you not understood since the earth was founded?
22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,
and its people are like grasshoppers.
He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,
and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
23 He brings princes to naught
and reduces the rulers of this world to nothing.
24 No sooner are they planted,
no sooner are they sown,
no sooner do they take root in the ground,
than he blows on them and they wither,
and a whirlwind sweeps them away like chaff.

The Bible is about history, spiritual matters and the future, not science details.

There are many poetic details in those verses. Likening people to grasshoppers, the heavens a tent. Rulers raising up to being sown, planted and growing. Thier demise describes them being like chaff. Its a poetic picture.
You cannot build a doctrine on poetry.
images.jpg

Looks like a circle to me.
Now if the ancients believed the earth was flat or spherical is another matter, but their understanding doesn't matter. The same way God told the Israelite to quarantine without their understanding and they wrote it down and followed, God is not constricted to human understanding.
 
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JohnClay

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....All the Bible has to say on the shape of the earth is in that one verse of poetry in Isaiah that says it looks like a circle,...
Like I said,
There are a large number of Bible verses that are compatible with a flat earth and incompatible with a spherical earth. e.g. The Flat-Earth Bible.
Are you aware of ANY Bible verses that are compatible with a spherical earth and incompatible with a flat earth?​
.....Likening people to grasshoppers,
In a flat earth the people are below and they could theoretically all be seen. If the earth is spherical many of the people are on the opposite side, upside down....
the heavens a tent....
I think tents are always propped up on a flat surface - like a flat earth rather than a spherical one. Do you see how in those two examples it was compatible with a flat earth and not a spherical one?
Also:
....He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth....
With a flat earth it is clear what "above" means. With a spherical earth, in some ways a throne "above" the earth is also "below" it....
 
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