Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

Bobber · Apr 30, 2021

Bradskii said:
What I could do is take you in your sleep. You'll nod off in your own bed and when you awake you'll be in heaven. Or I could drown you. I could send a flood. I could send a wall of water through your village that will tear you from your mother's arms. You will see her being carried away. You will see your brothers and sisters dissapear beneath the surface. You'll try to stay afloat but you'll lose your strength. Your mouth and nostrils will fill. You'll gasp for air. And you'll sink, seeing the daylight receeding as you take a lungful of water. You'll die in abject terror.

I could do either. Which do you think I should do?

Hold it now. Why did you gravitate towards what you said above when I already had stated this (below)

Secondly you don't know what might have been a special grace God provided for such in taking them to Heaven. Maybe something like when Stephen?

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55

Taken peacefully to Heaven? Perhaps. It wouldn't surprise me if some day I hear their testimony as similar.

Bobber · Apr 30, 2021

Bradskii said:
Edit: A quick story. I was in Thailand a few years back (a wedding) and my wife and I were staying at a hotel just on the beach front of a small town. My daughter and her family had a room on tbe fourth floor overlooking the beach and the town. And someone mentioned the Boxing Day tsunami. The place had been devastated. My son-in-law Googled for some details and we came across a video that showed the tsunami hitting the town. Horrifyingly seemingly taken from the same position that we were in. Maybe from a room a few doors down.

So we could hold the phone up in front of us and line it up with the actual background and watch the destruction unfold.

To think of all those innocent people being consumed by the waves was horrifying. To suggest that something like that was done intentionally...

I don't believe all worldly disasters have been brought on by God intentionally doing things. Romans 8:22 declares though that sin effected the physical creation and we now live in a fallen world. There are specific times where God has done judgement as in the Great Flood, and Sodom for it explicitly states he did. Not all times though

Bradskii · Apr 30, 2021

Bobber said:
Hold it now. Why did you gravitate towards what you said above when I already had stated this (below)

Secondly you don't know what might have been a special grace God provided for such in taking them to Heaven.

You're right. We don't know if there was any dispensation granted to the innocent. Probably because there's no mention of it in the flood story. Good to know that you think it would be wrong.

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

Speedwell said:
We've presented engineering details of a modern wooden boat of about the purported size of Noah's Ark. It was not particularly successful, for all of its modern fastenings and steel frames. More technical detail can be provided if you wish it...

Yes, please.
I would like to compare your modern version with what we know about the Ark.

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

Gene2memE said:
I argue that you're wrong and clearly don't know the first thing about wooden construction.

This isnt debate. This is just empty gainsaying.

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

VirOptimus said:
No, thats not how it works.

This is not debate.
I can just as easily hit that ball back over the net and say...
Yes, that is how 'it'
...'works'

VirOptimus · Apr 30, 2021

Lion IRC said:
This is not debate.
I can just as easily hit that ball back over the net and say...
Yes, that is how 'it'
...'works'

Well, you could but you would be in error.

Learn the basics.

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

myst33 said:
Please, stop ignoring my questions and answer them.

What are you talking about? I answered your question about the Roman census.

Please use the @Lion IRC mention function and present the specific question you would like me to answer.

I can't and won't answer false dilemma (loaded) questions such as "how can you believe such obvious lies". And I reserve the right to pass over questions which aren't on topic.

trophy33 · Apr 30, 2021

Lion IRC said:
What are you talking about? I answered your question about the Roman census.

Please use the @Lion IRC mention function and present the specific question you would like me to answer.

I can't and won't answer false dilemma (loaded) questions such as "how can you believe such obvious lies". And I reserve the right to pass over questions which aren't on topic.

I do not want to go back and search for them again, but from the top of my head, one of the questions was:
If you believe that the "whole earth" in the flood story means planet, then "the whole earth was dry" also means the planet?

If not, why and what is the rule you are applying to these words.

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

myst33 said:
I do not want to go back and search for them again....

You don't want to go back and find the post you accused me of ignoring.
Since I take such accusations seriously, I actually DID go and look to see if there was something addressed to me which I had neglected.
Nope. Neither accidental oversight nor deliberate avoidance. Because the post wasn't even addressed to me. You were talking to @Speedwell

myst33 said:
Ok, lets pretend that we are literalists... what exactly is the evidence in the text itself that it was planetary?

Actually, I see some evidence of locality:
a) "The whole earth was dry" cannot be about planet, but can be only about some local land.
b) The ark began its journey somewhere in Mesopotamia and ended up in... just Turkey. One would expect that in the wild wild planetary cataclysmic event the landing would be more random, for example Siberia, China, South America... not just so near to the beginning.

But in order to demonstrate my bona fides, I want to offer an answer, namely that the text disambiguates pre-flood land/earth (above sea level) and earth below sea level.
The text would be gobbledygook if it didn't make clear that the previously dry earth which became flooded, was being restored to its original dry state - and that this was happening all over the globe/earth.

Kylie · Apr 30, 2021

myst33 said:
We get a disagreement if the reality we measure is even stable or existing, so... that would count for all your examples. Working details in a nonexisting system are illusionary in the first place

Can you give an example?

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

Genesis 8 said:
In Noah’s six hundred and first year, on the first day of the first month, the waters had dried up from the earth. So Noah removed the covering from the ark and saw that the surface of the ground was dry. By the twenty-seventh day of the second month, the earth was fully dry.

If its any consolation, Im prepared to concede that maybe the flood was localised to occur solely over dry land and only flooded 1/3rd of the Earth
...the 1/3rd which we don't call oceans.

trophy33 · Apr 30, 2021

Kylie said:
Can you give an example?

The simulation hypothesis, the hollographic universe, the emergent reality... and probably also the weirdnes of the quantum world that creates our macro reality and is dependent of the measurement effect.

(the 1+1 = 2 does not always work in the quantum world)

trophy33 · Apr 30, 2021

Lion IRC said:
You don't want to go back and find the post you accused me of ignoring.
Since I take such accusations seriously, I actually DID go and look to see if there was something addressed to me which I had neglected.
Nope. Neither accidental oversight nor deliberate avoidance. Because the post wasn't even addressed to me. You were talking to @Speedwell

Post #250, for example. Partially the post #247.

You probably need to take these accusations even more seriously.

Lion IRC said:
I want to offer an answer, namely that the text disambiguates pre-flood land/earth (above sea level) and earth below sea level.
The text would be gobbledygook if it didn't make clear that the previously dry earth which became flooded, was being restored to its original dry state - and that this was happening all over the globe/earth.

When the Bible says "the earth", what leads you to the conclusion it can possible mean "the planet", when the concept of living on a planet was totally unknown to them?

And why are you switching between various meanins of the word "earth" in the same story?

AV1611VET · Apr 30, 2021

MIDutch said:
Is this just something you are making up to make the flood seem less horrific to your modern sensibilities?

QV please: Age of Accountability

AV1611VET · Apr 30, 2021

MIDutch said:
Still can't find n Genesis the information on the number of trees that were used, or how they got rid of all of the animal p**p, or how they kept the ark from flexing during the violent seas they undoubtedly met, or how flammable pitch was able to shield them from the energy release equivalent to 30 trillion hydrogen bombs, or ... even what the names were of Noah and his sons.

Please show us in Genesis what Noah, Ham, Shem and Japheth's wives were named. Weren't they "eyewitnesses" as well?

You want the relative humidity for that day as well?

trophy33 · Apr 30, 2021

Lion IRC said:
If its any consolation, Im prepared to concede that maybe the flood was localised to occur solely over dry land and only flooded 1/3rd of the Earth
...the 1/3rd which we don't call oceans.

Do you even accept the existence of the planet? Or are you a Flat Earther?

Or do you think that there was just a one continent in just few thousand years ago?

I suspect its one of these. Or else your hypothesis does not make much sense.

AV1611VET · Apr 30, 2021

Bradskii said:
So lucky that he knew all these people that had these experiences so that he could use them as learning toools.

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.

Lion IRC · Apr 30, 2021

myst33 said:
Post #250, for example. Partially the post #247.

You probably need to take these accusations even more seriously.

When the Bible says "the earth", what leads you to the conclusion it can possible mean "the planet", when the concept of living on a planet was totally unknown to them?

And why are you switching between various meanins of the word "earth" in the same story?

You think that's a gotcha but you're creating a trap for yourself.
If you want to insist that whole earth can't have two points of reference, fine.

The whole earth means every square centimetre of dry land.
Only dry land was flooded.
So....

"....the floodwaters came upon the earth" True
"...the waters completely inundated the earth" True.
"...the flood kept coming on the earth" True
"...every living thing that moved upon the earth " True
"...the waters prevailed upon the earth" True
"...waters receded steadily from the earth" True
"...In Noah’s six hundred and first year, on the first day of the first month, the waters had dried up from the earth. " True

There ya go. Show me the contradictory use of the word earth.
And enough with the accusations that ppl are deliberately avoiding your gnat straining, lame gotcha questions - the ones you post in between discouraging others NOT to post.

Speedwell · Apr 30, 2021

Lion IRC said:
Yes, please.
I would like to compare your modern version with what we know about the Ark.

We don't know anything about the Ark--beyond that it was said to be built of some now-unknown kind of wood to dimensions which no longer can be accurately converted to those presently in use. And it had three decks and a window. There is not enough information for any kind of structural analysis.

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