SkyWriting

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3. You completely misrepresent what Paul or any writer of Scripture, let alone God, instructs and commands re: following local laws. We are in fact instructed to stand against law that conflicts with God's Law.

That is not allowed by God's specific instructions.
This should help solve my inability to properly represent truth:

1 Peter 2:13-17
2 Peter 2:10
Titus 3
1 Timothy 2
Psalms 22:28
Daniel 2:20-21
Romans 13
Deuteronomy 16:18-20
Revelation 1
Romans 13
Proverbs 21
John 19:11
Mark 3:24
Proverbs 29
Proverbs 8:15
Psalms 94:20
Deuteronomy 28
Daniel 2:21
John 19:10-11
Jude 1:8
Colossians 1:15-17
Ecclesiastes 10:20
Acts 8:32
Acts 23:5
Matthew 10:38
 
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SkyWriting

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4. Discrimination is a word that ultimately has to do with judging (discerning, differentiating, distinguishing). We all discriminate, because we all constantly differentiate. Proper discrimination honors God. Ungodly discrimination dishonors God.

Illegal discrimination is verboten, and not forgiven believers. Unless they repent of course.

Peter 2:13-17

>View in Context

13 Be subject to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether to the king, as supreme; 14 or unto governors, as sent by him for vengeance on evil-doers and for praise to them that do well.

15 For so is the will of God, that by well-doing ye should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 as free, and not using your freedom for a cloak of wickedness, but as bondservants of God.

17 Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

Because we Fear God, we must honor the King. (government, rulers, etc.)
 
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SkyWriting

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5. Only as long as you treat others according to Scripture (the Law and the Prophets) and would have them treat you according to the same Scripture, is this saying applicable. This is not even rule #1 or #2, which would be to love God and neighbor. It's essentially #2, which if not according to #1 is not a true #2.

Rule #1 is Why. All logic begins with "Why."
Rule #2 is like it. Because this is the action of the first half of the only law.

38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So there is no other example that is superior to "Do unto others." Even unbelievers are judged by their conduct on judgment day. No Bible is even required for people to be judged and saved.
 
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GDL

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Sorry. Typo. Hebrews 10:24-26

Those are Jesus' exact words ...

Words as part of a greater context and more complete instruction, which you copy and paste, but seem to ignore.

Quite an accusation ...

Scripture reference included. Prove me wrong.

Per Paul and John, ... GRACE saves ... and frees us to live the lives that God desires from us (i.e. WORKS). Ephesians 2:8-10

Otherwise, WORKS plays no role in our salvation.

Not even being discussed, but a clear example of what the article says about accusations of "works salvation" as soon as we begin showing from Scripture that grace includes being trained to live righteously. If you understood Salvation correctly, you'd see that this training is part of the process of our Salvation.

This is, at best, debatable ... and, at worst, flat wrong ...
John 21

20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

OK, so we tighten up the discussion. Here's what you said first re: the command in 1 Corinthians 6:18 and the context of my answer:

This is a command to the individual believer, ... similar to "Love you neighbor as yourself ... ".

Firstly, the command to flee fornication is plural - you [all] flee fornication, so you're wrong in what you said.

Secondly, love neighbor was a command spoken to the nation, not just one person, so, you are wrong in what you say.

Next, for context, I'll retract what I said here:

Commands to the individual are ultimately commands to the Body, which works together for the good of the Body.

...and just say that you were wrong in saying the command was to an individual believer.

Fair enough?

You may wish to rethink this ...

And I may not. In fact, at this point, I won't.

Actually, the more you say, the more I think the article may be speaking to some degree about you. It thus makes sense that you are commenting against what it says. As for my not rethinking at this point, my reasoning is:

You are potentially making allowances for sin, rather than asserting against it. If you're not, then please say so clearly. You never answered my questions about 1 Corinthians 6:18. No one is saying here that God has not provided for growth from infancy to maturity. Nor is anyone saying God has not provided for forgiveness and cleansing of personal sins in our lives. What is being said, from Scripture, is that the practice of sin is not for a believer. What I am also saying is that we are to be learning what is sin and how to judge ourselves accordingly and how to assist one another (beginning with correctly seeing the small wood-chip in our brother's eye) with overcoming sin. This is what Biblical Love for us is - it obeys God and it helps others when in need, part of which involves understanding and overcoming sin to increasing degrees.

You are asserting only a part of grace. The part I identified from Titus 2 is quite normal for some to leave out, just as you do. It's quite normal for many who quickly allege "works salvation" to leave out.

You are quick to insert "works salvation" into the discussion. You're already throwing out Ephesian 2. If we were to get into Salvation, the indications are at this point that you would assert "works salvation" even more strongly. There are plenty of other threads that have gotten into this discussion. I won't get into it here.
Please pardon my typo. Please accept my retraction and restatement. Thanks in advance.





 
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GDL

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Illegal discrimination is verboten, and not forgiven believers. Unless they repent of course.

You should learn to think on more than one level and deal with the tensions presented in the Text. The same "Peter" said this:

NKJ Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. "Ought to" more precisely means, "it is necessary."

Paul also writes about obeying men in Romans 13, which is another battleground for those who assert blind obedience to men.
 
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SkyWriting

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“It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

Yaa, that's not how to run a real church. You don't remove sinners who happen to bubble to the top.
Since the early churches had no copy of the gospels, they didn't understand universal sin and universal forgiveness. They just didn't know.
 
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SkyWriting

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You should learn to think on more than one level and deal with the tensions presented in the Text. The same "Peter" said this:

NKJ Acts 5:29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: "We ought to obey God rather than men. "Ought to" more precisely means, "it is necessary."

The "men" being referred to were the church leaders. Paul is making the point that local law is superior to a church leaders advice. Thanks for bringing that up.
 
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GDL

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Rule #1 is Why. All logic begins with "Why."
Rule #2 is like it. Because this is the action of the fist half of the only law.

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So there is no other example that is superior to "Do unto others." Even unbelievers are judged by their conduct on judgment day. No Bible is even required for people to be judged.

Rules of logic, or 2 commandments (rules)?

The reason Jesus says "the second" is because there are 2 commands under discussion. The first being to love God. I agree that the 2 are tightly bound and one doesn't happen without the other, but they are 2. Not worth more discussion if you don't mind.
 
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GDL

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Exactly. None of those formalized structures existed.

Makes no sense when you think you agree, but disagree.

Well today the law allows for women to be leaders, at the time, it didn't.
So Paul was adhering to local law and local traditions. The length of hair, the type of clothing, who was allowed to pass through the doors of the "church" usually held in people homes, and all the discriminations that are now illegal, sex, age, nationality, religion, who people associate with, who they live with, etc.

Quite a liberal point of view adhering to the traditions and commandments of men. Very non-Christian, actually. No wonder this article caught your eye.

Scripture and adhering to Paul commanding to follow traditions he taught is Scriptural.
 
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GDL

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The "men" being referred to were the church leaders. Paul is making the point that local law is superior to a church leaders advice. Thanks for bringing that up.

Actually, they were not "church leaders" and they were not giving "advice." Your errors are pretty much non-stop.

Let's be clear and to the point:

Is secular law above God's Law?

Are God's people to adhere to secular law, no matter what?​
 
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Christsfreeservant

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In full agreement and have been for quite some time. The "agree" or "like" buttons are insufficient to tell you this. We have not yet seen the real pain that can be meted out in discipline, let alone judgment. Thank you, Sue, for speaking loudly, clearly and for not mincing words. I wonder how many will read or care...
GDL, thank you for your support and for your encouraging words. All glory to God. I appreciate, as well, some of your responses to other responders here.
 
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GDL

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That is not allowed by God's specific instructions.
This should help solve my inability to properly represent truth:

Funny, but, from what I've read, I have my doubt you could correctly interpret much of anything you post a reference to.
 
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GDL

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I don't mind. Defending God's word is very soothing to me. "Cathartic" I think is the word.

Actually, all you've defended is misinterpretation and a liberal rejection of Scripture. I can see why this would be cathartic for some.

With that said, I can also see that this just keeps getting worse. Specific single scripture only from here on. Post your lists only for your cathartic pleasure.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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This writing by Paul was reserved for commenting upon the circumstance of a man who sleeping with his father's wife.

Linking that statement to commentary upon a rather infrequent giving way to lust ... is not quite appropriate, I think.

Thinker, I don't believe you appreciate the gravity of this situation. We don't have just one man sleeping with his dad's wife anymore. Now we have pastors, elders, bible teachers, church leaders and a high number of church members "sleeping with prostitutes" by the hundreds of thousands, and across America and in other nations, too, because the church didn't deal with this when it was just one man (figuratively speaking). So, it has spread far and wide.

And believe me when I say that the church is well aware of this situation but they are ignoring, minimalizing, refusing to get involved, and are turning away the cries of spouses who are being abused emotionally and/or physically. And this is because so many of the leaders are living in sin themselves, and this is why they have diluted the gospel message, too, to pacify the sinful cravings of the flesh.

To say that this is speaking of a "rather infrequent giving way to lust" is to mock this situation which is enormous! Try watching some videos or read books or articles about people's lives who have been destroyed by this, including the lives of many children. There are many people out there discussing this, sharing their testimonies, and being willing to be honest about their own situations in order to bring this to the light and to help others who are trapped in such sin.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Watched a cartoon and out of the blue the character said do you believe that or some Bible story? At that point told the kids to turn off that episode and never watch him again. Recently watched another stick figure cartoon with no speaking. Showed graphic scenes and later for a few seconds a figure building a boat in the shape of a ark, lots of rain, and the boat sinking.
This is not unusual at all. Much of this is going on, promoting evil and calling good evil and/or mocking the Christian faith and practice.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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I don't think that the church should be primarily concerned with a "witch-hunt", wherein every possible sin is ferreted out.

Given that all christians continue to present some instances of sin, ... to try to ferret it all out, would result in the church being emptied out.

Note that sin includes gossip, meddlesomeness, discord, jealously, selfishness, dissensions, factions, envy, neglecting to love, etc.

We all have sin issues which we can work on, ... I don't think that anything is gained by asking all within the church to raise their hand when, or if, they sin.

The sin Paul refers to in his letter was obvious and known to the church. It was for this reason it had to be addressed. It reflected badly upon the church.

I think that we can take our lead from Jesus ... with His disciples. Jesus knew that various members of His group were dealing with certain sins (certainly Judas, Peter, as well as others), but He did not make it a priority to purge them from His group of followers.

Jesus, early on, instructed his followers to concentrate on their own sin (i.e. get the logs out of your own eye), ... before moving on to to point out the sins of others.
Thinker, this is talking about a situation where known sin is being reported, but this isn't a one time sin. This is habitual, willful, deliberate and premeditated sin with a refusal to repent. The Scriptures are quite clear on the subject of sinful practices. And the same should be applied to those who habitually and premeditatedly gossip about others with the intended purpose to harm others. If the person has been confronted with the sinful practice and refuses to repent, for the sake of the whole body church discipline should be applied. For sin does spread. And when these habitual and deliberate and premeditated sins against God and others are not dealt with properly, the whole body suffers because of it. That is the point of 1 Co 5, to deal with this so that won't happen.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Who teaches that it is SINFUL ... to obey the Lord ???
Many are doing this. I think I first became aware of this maybe 10-20 years ago when I was volunteering with a local ministry to women. The leaders, including a pastor's wife, told me that we don't have to repent of our sins. The pastor's wife and I had a back and forth on this and she tried to support her statement biblically, but it didn't hold up.

Then I began to be confronted by people on various websites and on social media who were saying that God does it all and that we do nothing. All we have to do is "believe," they say, although they don't define what it means to believe. And then they say that if we repent, obey, and submit to Christ that we are trying to earn our own salvation by our own good works, which Paul taught against.

So right there they were saying that it is sinful to repent, to obey, and to submit to Christ. And many people on social media and on discussion sites such as this are giving that message that it is wrong (a sin) to repent, obey and submit. And now there are folks on social media who are coming right out and saying that if we choose to obey the Lord that we are sinning.

When I am confronted with this again, or when I come across this again, I will try to remember to copy what is being said, but this happens more and more frequently. I am surprised that you have not heard this. Maybe I do more since I teach daily on submission, repentance and obedience to Christ.
 
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A_Thinker

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Thinker, I don't believe you appreciate the gravity of this situation. We don't have just one man sleeping with his dad's wife anymore. Now we have pastors, elders, bible teachers, church leaders and a high number of church members "sleeping with prostitutes" by the hundreds of thousands, and across America and in other nations, too, because the church didn't deal with this when it was just one man (figuratively speaking).
This is not what you originally spoke of. You are speaking of lust, ... what Jesus (and Jimmy Carter) described as "adultery in the heart".

I would argue that the people of God are often dealing with these conditions of the heart, ... whether it is gossiping, or meddling in others' affairs, or speaking harshly, or murmuring and complaining, or being selfish with one's blessings, or worrying, etc.

These are all sins ... and instances where we miss the mark, and we only are forgiven of these, as we are for all of our sin, ... by the blood of Jesus.

When sin comes out into the open in the church, it should be addressed by the church. For instance, the situation that Paul spoke of. Of course, it was possible that others in that congregation were indulging in sexual immorality, as well, but Paul didn't know who, if any, were, so he didn't address it or them. Paul addressed what he knew of, even though he, likely, knew that his Corinthian congregation included more sinners, as well.

Paul, of course, did address the issue of most, if not all, sin, in his teachings, ... as all pastors should. But Paul didn't go on a mission to root out sin from his churches.
 
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A_Thinker

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Then I began to be confronted by people on various websites and on social media who were saying that God does it all and that we do nothing.
Well ... that is what scripture says. God's GRACE ... and NO WORKS from us.

It says that salvation is by GRACE, through FAITH, and that even that FAITH is gifted to us by God.

Paul goes on to say that salvation is explicitly and categorically "NOT OF WORKS" ... but that salvation should "PRODUCE WORKS".

Ephesians 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Now that's scripture. I don't know how anyone could faithfully teach that we, somehow, have any responsibility for our salvation. In my view, such a teaching would, itself, be sinful.

Now, as children of God, we do have a responsibility to live godly lives. But God will never cast away any of His adopted children, who might fail in any way to do so ...

John 6

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

What God will do is treat us as our own parents treated us. When we are disobedient, He will chasten us, as a good father chastens his own sons. And it is blessing to be chastened by God, for in receiving such chastening, we know that we are His.

Hebrews 12

6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

Paul stated that even the church action against the guy that got thrown out of the Corinthian church, ... was done so for chastening, ... so that he might repent, and come back to the fellowship (which he did).
 
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