Justification: What are the misunderstandings between Catholics and Protestants?

disciple Clint · Apr 15, 2021

Landon Caeli said:
I don't think it makes one bit of difference if salvation is by either works or faith or both... They're too intertwined, IMO, and I see it as splitting hairs.

...BTW, if anyone can show where the CCC says salvation by faith alone is anathema, I would appreciate it.

Well if it is works only that sounds much like Pelagianism if salvation is by works then you can save yourself, there is no need for the sacrifice of Jesus.

disciple Clint · Apr 15, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
I'm just asking because this kind of stuff is often treated as very polemical and is often misquoted. So I wanted to know where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church it was found. NomNomPizza quoted something from the Council of Trent, sisxth session, ninth canon, but I'm not sure that's what you were referring to.

And while you are at it, have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church or just parts others have quoted as some sort of 'gotcha' quotes? If you haven't read it, you can pick up a copy at most any bookstore.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Danthemailman · Apr 15, 2021

Catholic Justification by Works - The Catholic Church Teaches Salvation by Works

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
Hello, my thoughts are you can't have faith devoid of love. When Protestants speak of "justification by faith alone", they mean that the work of justification is carried out in what Christ accomplished on the cross for the believers.
As far as salvation is concerned, we believe it is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone. That's where the terminology can appear confusing, because alone doesn't mean devoid of other things, but rather that we are saved(justified) by faith in Christ. Love was the reason Christ endured the very wrath of God.
So Christ's work (It is finished) is imputed to believers, and then the works believers do are evidence of an active faith.

Blessings to you friend. You said that you don’t believe someone can have faith devoid of love but did you read Paul’s opening statements in 1 Corinthians 13?

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice Paul is writing that a person can have many gifts from the Holy Spirit but if that person doesn’t have love he is nothing. He also specifically says “if I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing”. So it appears that Paul is indicating that a situation where a person can have faith without love is possible.

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

Clare73 said:
Please define "love."

I really don’t understand why I should need to define love, it’s common knowledge that even a 4 year old understands. Furthermore your obviously using a device that will provide you with the definition if your unfamiliar with the word.

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @HosannaHM, I agree with @Clare73, Roman Catholics mean by their use of the single term "justification" what we Protestants mean by our use of two different terms combined, "justification" and "sanctification". So sadly, a certain amount of confusion often exists in our discussions from the get-go.

The primary difference between us (Catholics/Protestants) boils down to two words that concern how we become righteous, imputation and infusion (just to be clear, both Catholics and Protestants believe that our sins are "imputed" or credited to the Lord Jesus' account for the purpose of atonement, but only Protestants believe that His righteousness, the righteousness of God .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:21 is "imputed" or credited to our accounts.

Here are the Justification Canons from the 6th Session of The Council of Trent and the section concerning justification from The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in the two links below (in case anyone cares to read them).

The Council of Trent - Sixth Session, Canons
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Grace and justification

For what it's worth, conservative RC's and conservative Protestants walk in lockstep together where 85-90% of the Christian faith is concerned. IOW, we agree about the Christian faith FAR more than we differ, which is something that we should 'always' keep in mind. That said, I do not believe that it's possible to truly harmonize certain parts of the faith that we disagree on, unless one side concedes, that is (and I don't see that happening anytime soon ).

--David

Very helpful- Thank you David!

I guess it's a shame that the 15-20% disagreement contains our understanding of the gospel

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
It has not been 'walked back' because the council of Trent still stands. We can find nuance in what the council said but we cannot repudiate it. Far better to try to understand the whole of it in historical context. That is what Hubert Jedin did in his 'A History of the Council of Trent'. It's not a common book but it is still among the best books on that council. Lots of background missing in the polemical voices.

If we are ever going to actually get on the same path again, and I doubt we ever will, it will be by understanding Trent better and not in repudiating it.

Hey, we will all have perfect theology in the end!

I'll read more of the catechism. I bought one off of thrift books yesterday. Let me ask it this way: As a RC, would you say you are trusting fully in Christ for your salvation and not in any good thing that you have done?

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Blessings to you friend. You said that you don’t believe someone can have faith devoid of love but did you read Paul’s opening statements in 1 Corinthians 13?

“If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:1-3‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice Paul is writing that a person can have many gifts from the Holy Spirit but if that person doesn’t have love he is nothing. He also specifically says “if I have all faith so as to move mountains but I have not love I am nothing”. So it appears that Paul is indicating that a situation where a person can have faith without love is possible.

Okay, maybe I misunderstood the point you are trying to make. When I said "you can't have faith devoid of love", I meant we can't have faith without God's love. God regenerates us and we receive faith. In love (His love), we have faith because we have been saved by grace through faith.

To clear the water, what exactly is the point you are trying to make by your first question? Or were you just asking?

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
Okay, maybe I misunderstood the point you are trying to make. When I said "you can't have faith devoid of love", I meant we can't have faith without God's love. God regenerates us and we receive faith. In love (His love), we have faith because we have been saved by grace through faith.

To clear the water, what exactly is the point you are trying to make by your first question? Or were you just asking?

My point is that perhaps it’s not the works at all that is taken into consideration for our salvation but instead the motivation behind our works. That motivation being love, both for God and for others.

I do agree that in order to have faith we must be granted grace but the scriptures also contain examples of those who have been granted grace yet they do not have faith. Romans 2 is one example.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So even tho we may be granted God’s grace thru His love it does not guarantee our salvation because it still depends on if we cooperate or not.

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
My point is that perhaps it’s not the works at all that is taken into consideration for our salvation but instead the motivation behind our works. That motivation being love, both for God and for others.

I do agree that in order to have faith we must be granted grace but the scriptures also contain examples of those who have been granted grace yet they do not have faith. Romans 2 is one example.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So even tho we may be granted God’s grace thru His love it does not guarantee our salvation because it still depends on if we cooperate or not.

I can see where you are coming from, but I think you're mixing regeneration, justification, and sanctification all in the same bag (which is what are RC friends tend to do). If someone has a "stubborn and unrepentant heat" that sounds like evidence of a bad tree- someone who is not born again. That passage in Romans 2 is directed primarily at the Jews. The point Paul is making is that they are no better off than the Gentiles described in Romans 1. Read Romans 2:12 all the way to the end of the chapter.

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
I can see where you are coming from, but I think you're mixing regeneration, justification, and sanctification all in the same bag (which is what are RC friends tend to do). If someone has a "stubborn and unrepentant heat" that sounds like evidence of a bad tree- someone who is not born again. That passage in Romans 2 is directed primarily at the Jews. The point Paul is making is that they are no better off than the Gentiles described in Romans 1. Read Romans 2:12 all the way to the end of the chapter.

I never implied that those who were unrepentant were justified. I merely said that they had been granted grace thru God’s love. Remember “God so loved the world” which is why He made a way for all to be saved. I think a big part of the problem with most Protestants beliefs is that many of them think that sanctification is automatic as a result of faith, but there are several examples in the scriptures implying that faith does not always produce results. John 15:1-7 is full of implications indicating that those who have faith might not bear fruit or remain in Christ.

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
I never implied that those who were unrepentant were justified. I merely said that they had been granted grace thru God’s love. Remember “God so loved the world” which is why He made a way for all to be saved. I think a big part of the problem with most Protestants beliefs is that many of them think that sanctification is automatic as a result of faith, but there are several examples in the scriptures implying that faith does not always produce results. John 15:1-7 is full of implications indicating that those who have faith might not bear fruit or remain in Christ.

This is a bit off-topic, but I'll go there with you for a moment. I am more than likely one of those Protestants you speak of, because I do believe when we are regenerated by God, we want to obey Him. Please don't misunderstand me- We are sanctified by walking with God and being transformed daily through grace and obedience. However, I can't brow beat someone into wanting to follow God if their hearts are unrepentant.

I can force my child to eat broccoli, but I can't make him love to eat it. If something in him changes and he likes it, well there you go! The affections have to change. God has to give us a new nature.

This is why preaching the gospel is so important. We don't have the power to change the inner man- God does. When God grants us a new heart, we want to obey him in love. If we love Him, His commandments are not burdensome to us. The warnings from scripture still stand that we should examine ourselves. Am I being conformed into His image? Do I hate sin? Do I desire God?

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
This is a bit off-topic, but I'll go there with you for a moment. I am more than likely one of those Protestants you speak of, because I do believe when we are regenerated by God, we want to obey Him. Please don't misunderstand me- We are sanctified by walking with God and being transformed daily through grace and obedience. However, I can't brow beat someone into wanting to follow God if their hearts are unrepentant.

I can force my child to eat broccoli, but I can't make him love to eat it. If something in him changes and he likes it, well there you go! The affections have to change. God has to give us a new nature.

This is why preaching the gospel is so important. We don't have the power to change the inner man- God does. When God grants us a new heart, we want to obey him in love. If we love Him, His commandments are not burdensome to us. The warnings from scripture still stand that we should examine ourselves. Am I being conformed into His image? Do I hate sin? Do I desire God?

How can you reconcile this theology with Jesus’ words in Luke 13:6-9?

“And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’ And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’ ””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that despite Jesus giving special attention to the tree to encourage it and nurture it to bear fruit the outcome is still uncertain whether or not the tree will bear fruit or if it will be chopped down. God’s grace gives us the ability to repent and abide in Christ but we must still choose to comply with His guidance in order to receive salvation brother. Would this not be an example of regeneration here in this passage or is Jesus applying this special attention to trees that He has not regenerated? I think the same question also applies to Romans 2. If God’s kindness and patience is leading someone to repentance wouldn’t you say that that is them being regenerated by God?

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
This is a bit off-topic, but I'll go there with you for a moment. I am more than likely one of those Protestants you speak of, because I do believe when we are regenerated by God, we want to obey Him. Please don't misunderstand me- We are sanctified by walking with God and being transformed daily through grace and obedience. However, I can't brow beat someone into wanting to follow God if their hearts are unrepentant.

I can force my child to eat broccoli, but I can't make him love to eat it. If something in him changes and he likes it, well there you go! The affections have to change. God has to give us a new nature.

This is why preaching the gospel is so important. We don't have the power to change the inner man- God does. When God grants us a new heart, we want to obey him in love. If we love Him, His commandments are not burdensome to us. The warnings from scripture still stand that we should examine ourselves. Am I being conformed into His image? Do I hate sin? Do I desire God?

I don’t think this is off topic if the OP discusses mixing regeneration with sanctification then I think it’s important to understand both regeneration and sanctification.

chevyontheriver · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
Hey, we will all have perfect theology in the end!

I'll read more of the catechism. I bought one off of thrift books yesterday. Let me ask it this way: As a RC, would you say you are trusting fully in Christ for your salvation and not in any good thing that you have done?

I trust Jesus for my salvation. I know I can’t earn that by anything I could do. Besides, the good I can do is only because of grace.

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
How can you reconcile this theology with Jesus’ words in Luke 13:6-9?

It's reconciled by comparing scripture with scripture. Jesus talks about trees in Luke 6:43-45 too:

“For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks."

A good tree is only good because God regenerates the tree. If you are a good tree, you will be fruitful. It will be made known by your works.

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t think this is off topic if the OP discusses mixing regeneration with sanctification then I think it’s important to understand both regeneration and sanctification.

That's fair, but I was thinking in the realm of what Catholics vs. Protestants believe. Your soteriological arrangement sounds like synergism, which is closer to what the Catholic church teaches.

Grace is really hard for people to understand. You tell them the gospel and the natural inclination is "Yes, but we have to do this" and "Yes but we have to do that". If you truly believe the gospel, it's not " I have to do this", it's "I want to do this. I will do this because I want to". The man/woman is changed by grace. The nature has changed. This fruit that you bear out of love (not simply pure obligation) is evidence of a new heart- A good tree that will produce good fruit.

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

chevyontheriver said:
I trust Jesus for my salvation. I know I can’t earn that by anything I could do. Besides, the good I can do is only because of grace.

Brother, in that statement we agree 100%.

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
A good tree is only good because God regenerates the tree. If you are a good tree, you will be fruitful. It will be made known by your works.

Ok but is the tree in Luke 13 being regenerated? The tree in Luke 6 is pertaining to identifying a tree by its fruits not whether or not God has regenerated the tree. It’s a parallel verse to Matthew 7 which is followed by the parable of the man who built his house on the rock foundation and the man who built his house on the sand. It’s about hearing Christ’s words and acting on them or not acting on them. Again it’s an indication of the choice we must make not the choice God has made for us.

HosannaHM · Apr 15, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
Ok but is the tree in Luke 13 being regenerated? The tree in Luke 6 is pertaining to identifying a tree by its fruits not whether or not God has regenerated the tree. It’s a parallel verse to Matthew 7 which is followed by the parable of the man who built his house on the rock foundation and the man who built his house on the sand. It’s about hearing Christ’s words and acting on them or not acting on them. Again it’s an indication of the choice we must make not the choice God has made for us.

It remained to be seen if the tree parable of Luke 13 was made good/regenerated. If it didn't bear any fruit, clearly it was not. The tree is made known by the fruit it bears. To put in the like manner that you have, if someone is "hearing Christ's words and acting on them" they are in Christ. If someone is not, they will be cut out. They will go out from us, because they were never of us.

I wouldn't argue that we make choices, I would argue why we make the choices that we do. If we make godly choices, God has regenerated us. If we don't care about being more like Christ or have no conviction of sin, then most likely God has not regenerated us.

BNR32FAN · Apr 15, 2021

HosannaHM said:
It remained to be seen if the tree parable of Luke 13 was made good/regenerated. If it didn't bear any fruit, clearly it was not. The tree is made known by the fruit it bears. To put in the like manner that you have, if someone is "hearing Christ's words and acting on them" they are in Christ. If someone is not, they will be cut out. They will go out from us, because they were never of us.

I wouldn't argue that we make choices, I would argue why we make the choices that we do. If we make godly choices, God has regenerated us. If we don't care about being more like Christ or have no conviction of sin, then most likely God has not regenerated us.

Ok but Jesus specifically said that He will fertilize the tree. What does that mean if it’s not an attempt to regenerate the tree?

Justification: What are the misunderstandings between Catholics and Protestants?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Christian Saved by Grace

Christian Saved by Grace

Christian Saved by Grace

He’s a Way of life

Christian Saved by Grace

He’s a Way of life

Christian Saved by Grace

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Well-Known Member

Christian Saved by Grace

Christian Saved by Grace

He’s a Way of life

Christian Saved by Grace

He’s a Way of life

Similar threads